zfs discuss - Jul 2006 - Finding a suitable server to run Solaris/ZFS as a disk server

So I''m looking to build a home disk server (with some database and web
activity, and email) using ZFS and hence Solaris, and I''m finding it
hard to locate hardware that''s known to work.

I need a tower server, and something with office-level rather than lab-level
noise output.  I need an absolute minimum of 4 3.5" SATA-II hot-swap bays,
and really want 5, and wouldn''t mind 8; plus of course a suitable
controller. I don''t desperately need redundant power or fans, though I
wouldn''t mind. I''d kinda like gigabit ethernet, but hardware
at this level tends to come with that these days. I don''t especially
need dual ethernets.  I tend to prefer AMD, and I understand Solaris and ZFS
like Opterons anyway.   Oh, I do want ECC memory.  I want room to expand the
memory for sure, and maybe the CPU (like a dual-processor MB configured with
just one processor to begin with).

And of course it''s for a home server, so I''d like to buy it
for about $1.98.  Okay, so I''m going to have to give a little on this
one.  I''m actually able to talk about more like $2000 for a
single-processor system with 2GB RAM and say 4x250GB disks plus a boot disk,
though it hurts me to say so.

So it looks like I need the Supermicro AW-4020C
(http://www.supermicro.com/Aplus/system/Tower/4020/AW-4020C-T.cfm), which is
their H8DCe motherboard, which uses the nvidia proforce 2050 and proforce 2200
for the SATA (I think those are big integrated chips doing many things, not
*just* the SATA).  But I can''t find any of the obvious IDs in the HCL,
and Supermicro doesn''t seem to bother testing against Solaris (at least
I''ve never found it on one fo their OS support lists; but I *have*
found some older Supermicro models on the HCL).

Are there other similar models that are known to work with Solaris?  Am I
somehow misunderstanding the HCL, or misusing the search, and that model is
sitting there waiting for me?  Are there tricks to reading between the lines
that I don''t know that tell me this system definitely would, or
definitely wouldn''t, work?  How big a risk is there that a randomly
chosen system won''t run Solaris these days?
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org

> Something like a Sun Ultra-20/X2100?  These use a
> fairly generic Opteron-based
> motherboard with the familiar all-in-one I/O chipset.
>  The product differentiation
> omes in the form factor, service processor, high
> quality power supplies,
> expandability, etc.
Yes, or the X4100.  I believe there''s even an employee discount
available.  However, I''ve heard too many of those running on
people''s desks, as well as in the lab, and they''re too noisy
for where I want to put them.  But that''s certainly the direct, obvious
way to get a system known to run Solaris!  (Also they support 2.5", not
3.5" drives, and not enough of them).
 
> I presume you are sizing based on GBytes.  If so,
> then the stores are now full
> of 750 GByte disks and the 160/250 GByte drives are
> on clearance. 
I believe we''re currently under 300GB total in use in the household
(though I''ve got a couple of 300GB drives in use; one is all backups
and one isn''t full). Yeah, I *could* configure a RAID-Z pool of 3x750GB
as my starting configuration, but...seems excessive somehow.
 
> I have noticed that finding ECC memory in a retail
> store is almost impossible.
> If you absolutely require ECC (and as a RAS guy, I
> highly recommend it) then
> you may need to purchase from a systems vendor or
> online.
I certainly haven''t found it in the store, but I can find it easily
enough for internet order, so no big problem.  I mostly build my own systems, or
re-build them, so I''ll probably end up doing this one that way; well,
unless I end up buying an Infrant ReadyNAS instead, which *does* support adding
drives to an X-RAID group.
 
> > And of course it''s for a home server, so I''d like
> > to buy it for about $1.98.  
> > Okay, so I''m going to have to give a little on this
> > one.  I''m actually able 
> > to talk about more like $2000 for a
> > single-processor system with 2GB RAM and 
> > say 4x250GB disks plus a boot disk, though it hurts
> > me to say so.  
> 
> The RAM may chew up a third of the budget, because of
> the ECC requirement.
Ouch; but I don''t think so, I thought I was seeing prices in the range
of $110 for a 1GB stick of ECC registered DDR400, which is what that Supermicro
says it takes.  Now, I may end up wanting rather more than 2GB eventually
perhaps.

I think ECC is a necessity for a system with a couple-few GB of ram that runs
24/7 and stores important data.  Similarly, one of my big pushes to ZFS is the
block checksumming; should greatly reduce undetected bit-rot.  Those "<
1 undetected error in 10^14 bits" error rates are testable in relatively
few days on my current desktop system, there really needs to be some
higher-level error checking.
 
> Also this week, I noticed that the HCL is falling
> behind.  There are many
> systems which will work that aren''t listed.  The
> problem is that a motherboard
> design has about a 6 month market window.  Rather
> than worry about specific
> boards, look for the chipset.  Hint: Sun tends to
> make systems using the
> NVidia chipsets and graphics cards.
Ah; useful point.  I haven''t really looked at what''s inside
Sun''s x86 servers too carefully.  I recognize the short market window
as a problem; but was hoping people reporting success would help.  I wish there
were a way to report *failure*, too.
> What I''ve seen this week is: a number of new,
> relatively inexpensive
> motherboards with AM2 sockets, NVidia NForce 430
> chipset (4xSATA, 2x IDE, GbE,
> hdaudio, USB, firewire).  If you need more SATA, then
> the Marvell 88SX and
> SiliconImage 3124/3132 SATA are well supported by
> Solaris <wink wink>
Ah, *very* useful.  Add-on SATA is pretty likely to figure in this process.
> For the processor, I recommend dual core, the
> difference is noticeable.
> But if the budget is tight, you can start with the
> inexpensive Sempron64
> and upgrade it later.  Whatever you get, make sure it
> is 64-bit, it will
> make life easier.  Also, AMD is expected to reduce
> processor prices later
> this month.
I''ll almost certainly go dual core, and I''d *like* to go dual
processor as well.  Because I''m currently running two servers, which
*aren''t* handling disk for the household, just web and email.  I want
to consolidate all that onto this one box if I can.  (They''re currently
dual processor *pentium pro* systems, so anything I buy today will have 10 times
the power of the two put together).  Less noise and less heat and better disk
handling and better performance.  All I have to do is learn to be a Solaris
admin again (last time I did much with it was around 1997, I think; since then
my various jobs, including my current job at Sun, have used Linux).

It looks to me like I can get the Supermicro box I mentioned, with processor,
memory, and disks, in my $2k range.  So even if that exact one won''t
run Solaris, there should be other choices; Supermicro is not going to be a
magically unbeatable price point, I''m thinking.

Knowing what SATA controllers will work helps a great deal.  Does the OS
interact with the hot-swap rack at all, or does it just notice the device on the
end of the SAAT cable is gone?  Is that yet another thing I have to worry about
compatibility on?
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org

On Jul 9, 2006, at 01:05, Richard Elling wrote:
> Also this week, I noticed that the HCL is falling behind.  There  
> are many
> systems which will work that aren''t listed.  The problem is that a
> motherboard
> design has about a 6 month market window.  Rather than worry about  
> specific
> boards, look for the chipset.  Hint: Sun tends to make systems  
> using the
> NVidia chipsets and graphics cards.
While it''s not useful until you get the actual hardware, this tool  
lets you know if Solaris 10 1/06 can run on a system:

http://www.sun.com/bigadmin/hcl/hcts/install_check.html

Hopefully it will be updated for 6/06 in the not-too-distant future.  
Not sure if there''s a similar thing for Nevada.

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> So I''m looking to build a home disk server (with some database and
web activity,
> and email) using ZFS and hence Solaris, and I''m finding it hard to
locate
> hardware that''s known to work.
Something like a Sun Ultra-20/X2100?  These use a fairly generic Opteron-based
motherboard with the familiar all-in-one I/O chipset.  The product
differentiation
comes in the form factor, service processor, high quality power supplies,
expandability, etc.
> I need a tower server, and something with office-level rather than
lab-level
> noise output.  I need an absolute minimum of 4 3.5" SATA-II hot-swap
bays, and
> really want 5, and wouldn''t mind 8; plus of course a suitable
controller. I don''t
> desperately need redundant power or fans, though I wouldn''t mind.
I''d kinda like
> gigabit ethernet, but hardware at this level tends to come with that these
days.
> I don''t especially need dual ethernets.  I tend to prefer AMD, and
I understand
> Solaris and ZFS like Opterons anyway.   Oh, I do want ECC memory.  I want
room to
> expand the memory for sure, and maybe the CPU (like a dual-processor MB
configured
> with just one processor to begin with).
I presume you are sizing based on GBytes.  If so, then the stores are now full
of 750 GByte disks and the 160/250 GByte drives are on clearance.  If you want
to DIY, there are a number of mother boards which will get you 4 SATA drive
support with GbE and 4 GBytes of memory.  Look for AMD AM2 socket support,
though you can still get Opterons in socket 939 and 940.  The price difference
should be almost zero, though the availability is still somewhat limited for
AM2.

I have noticed that finding ECC memory in a retail store is almost impossible.
If you absolutely require ECC (and as a RAS guy, I highly recommend it) then
you may need to purchase from a systems vendor or online.
> And of course it''s for a home server, so I''d like to buy
it for about $1.98.
> Okay, so I''m going to have to give a little on this one. 
I''m actually able
> to talk about more like $2000 for a single-processor system with 2GB RAM
and
> say 4x250GB disks plus a boot disk, though it hurts me to say so.  
The RAM may chew up a third of the budget, because of the ECC requirement.
> So it looks like I need the Supermicro AW-4020C 
> (http://www.supermicro.com/Aplus/system/Tower/4020/AW-4020C-T.cfm), which
is
> their H8DCe motherboard, which uses the nvidia proforce 2050 and proforce
2200
> for the SATA (I think those are big integrated chips doing many things, not
> *just* the SATA).  But I can''t find any of the obvious IDs in the
HCL, and
> Supermicro doesn''t seem to bother testing against Solaris (at
least I''ve never
> found it on one fo their OS support lists; but I *have* found some older 
> Supermicro models on the HCL). 
Also this week, I noticed that the HCL is falling behind.  There are many
systems which will work that aren''t listed.  The problem is that a
motherboard
design has about a 6 month market window.  Rather than worry about specific
boards, look for the chipset.  Hint: Sun tends to make systems using the
NVidia chipsets and graphics cards.

What I''ve seen this week is: a number of new, relatively inexpensive
motherboards with AM2 sockets, NVidia NForce 430 chipset (4xSATA, 2x IDE, GbE,
hdaudio, USB, firewire).  If you need more SATA, then the Marvell 88SX and
SiliconImage 3124/3132 SATA are well supported by Solaris <wink wink>

For the processor, I recommend dual core, the difference is noticeable.
But if the budget is tight, you can start with the inexpensive Sempron64
and upgrade it later.  Whatever you get, make sure it is 64-bit, it will
make life easier.  Also, AMD is expected to reduce processor prices later
this month.
  -- richard

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> Knowing what SATA controllers will work helps a great deal.  Does the OS 
> interact with the hot-swap rack at all, or does it just notice the device 
> on the end of the SAAT cable is gone?  Is that yet another thing I have to 
> worry about compatibility on?
SATA is designed to be hot-pluggable and Solaris has had dynamic
reconfiguration for a long time.  [treading onto thin ice...] It
could be done, but I''m not sure of how automated it is.  If the
device is not open, then it should be no problem.
  -- richard