Vorbis - Jan 2007 - A Macromedia Shockwave Flash-based Ogg player?

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I'm looking for an Ogg/Vorbis player in Macromedia Flash, for embedding into
webpages.

I discovered a Java-based player but it's a non-starter. If people have to
install things, it's over.  They already have flash because almost every
website on the damned Internet requires it these days.

What I need is an Ogg Vorbis player written in Macromedia Shockwave Flash, much
like the MP3 players built in to myspace.com, or the video players built into
Google Video or YouTube, etc.

- -ken
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Unfortunately, there is no such thing to this date.  Macromedia seemed
to have a grudge against Xiph's formats.  Actually, I've been trying
to get in touch with one of Adobe's developers working on Flash, but I
don't think they will care much about that.

For now, all you can do is contact them and request support for Ogg
formats (Vorbis, Theora, Speex, etc.)  You can check the MailOgging
project at //wiki.xiph.org

That, and being forced to use the java player until Adobe changes their mind.

Sorry about that.  It's not our fault.  Don't give up on our projects.

-Ivo

On 1/2/07, Ken Restivo <ken@restivo.org> wrote:
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>
> I'm looking for an Ogg/Vorbis player in Macromedia Flash, for embedding
into webpages.
>
> I discovered a Java-based player but it's a non-starter. If people have
to install things, it's over.  They already have flash because almost every
website on the damned Internet requires it these days.
>
> What I need is an Ogg Vorbis player written in Macromedia Shockwave Flash,
much like the MP3 players built in to myspace.com, or the video players built
into Google Video or YouTube, etc.
>
> - -ken
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> +jiqjr3yVjlpmnxJkTKrc8k> =CKdN
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> http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/vorbis
>

On Tue, Jan 02, 2007 at 01:28:06AM -0800, Ken Restivo wrote:
> I'm looking for an Ogg/Vorbis player in Macromedia Flash, for embedding
into webpages.
As Ivo said, we don't have anything for you. :(
> What I need is an Ogg Vorbis player written in Macromedia Shockwave Flash,
much like the MP3 players built in to myspace.com, or the video players built
into Google Video or YouTube, etc.
Those audio and video players use the codecs built into flash, 
they're not written in it. Macromedia and now Adobe have chosen to 
license and support those formats directly.

I've heard the interpreter in flash 10 is fast enough actually write a 
vorbis decoder in ActionScript. In addition to lobbying Adobe, that's 
your best option. Some people were discussion trying an actionscript 
port, but I don't have a project link for you.

 -r

Worked here too, with choppy sound...Firefox 2.0.0.1, Windows XP SP1
CPU stays in 75-95% range during playback (Pentium 4, 2 Ghz) 
Nice effort !

Wesley

----- Original Message ----
From: Tor-Einar Jarnbjo <tor-einar@jarnbjo.name>
To: Ralph Giles <giles@xiph.org>
Cc: vorbis@xiph.org
Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2007 4:03:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Vorbis] A Macromedia Shockwave Flash-based Ogg player?

Ralph Giles schrieb:
>Some people were discussion trying an actionscript 
>port, but I don't have a project link for you.
>  
>
The sound is choppy, it stops playing after a while and it might not 
even work at all, mais voila, at least as a first proof of concept:

http://flash.j-ogg.de/

The SWF application is yet hardcoded to play (or at least try to play) 
test.ogg from the same URL path and is only supporting Vorbis files with 
44,1kHz sample rate and two channels (stereo). I hope it was ok to use 
one of the Vorbis files from vorbis.com for this demo.

Tor


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On 1/16/07, David M. Cotter <me@davecotter.com>
wrote:
> i''m not on the flash team, but i can push a little from where i am
to
> see what the story is.  From what i understand, a major goal of flash
> is to 1) keep the size down to the minimum and 2) not have it depend
> on anything.
>
> because of 2, we can''t have folks having to install XiphQT
> separately, it would have to come as part of the flash installer.
> because of 1, we are loath to include anything more than absolutely
> necessary.  considering we already have an audio solution built into
> flash, it becomes less than absolutely necessary to include yet
> another audio solution.
Greetings, Mr. Cotter

I believe, there''s some misconceptions on your statements.

If you meant the resulting .swf files... those only carry the included
data (images, sound, animation sequences, etc); no actual decoders.
If you meant the Flash player, as I suspect you did, understand that
it''s there that the decoding is done, thus where the playback
libraries are.

No one would have to install the XiphQT (as you said) if there was
support for all (or some) of our formats in the Flash player.  Also,
XiphQT is a pack of components for Quicktime, which is pretty much
only useful for Mac OS X users.

Furthermore, you say that Flash has only one audio solution included.
This is wrong.  Flash 8 supports four different "solutions" for audio,
and two for video.  It''s up for the Flash author to decide which
encoding s/he would like to use in their resulting SWF application.
Take notice, as well, that half of those solutions are patented and
require a license for use within Flash applications.

Neither Vorbis (general audio), nor Speex (for speech), nor OggPCM
(PCM data), nor FLAC (lossless audio), nor Theora (video) require any
kind of license or royalties.  However, Macromedia (now Adobe) has
showed no official interest for any of those formats, even though they
provide more advantages than their licensing conditions (better
quality, streaming support, etc).

We can''t force Adobe to include support for the Ogg family on Flash.
We can however try to negotiate with them, and offer our help in the
implementation process if need be.

If there is a chance that you may get in touch with the "big guys",
and you would be kind enough to try it, we would appreciate it very
much.

Best wishes,
Ivo Emanuel Gon?alves

> Greetings, Mr. Cotter
And greetings right back
> I believe, there''s some misconceptions on your statements.
i believe there are some misconceptions in your interpretation of my  
statements.
> If you meant the resulting .swf files...
nope, i meant the flash player
> If you meant the Flash player, as I suspect you did, understand  
> that it''s there that the decoding is done, thus where the playback
> libraries are.
umm, did it seem that i did not understand that?  I thought *I* was  
trying to say that, by stating that 2: it cannot depend on an  
external library.
> No one would have to install the XiphQT (as you said) if there was  
> support for all (or some) of our formats in the Flash player
that''s exactly what point 2 was attempting to point out.  however  
point 1 was that we do NOT want to make the flash player any bigger  
(in bytes), which precludes us from including even more code, eg: the  
vorbis decoder.
> Also,XiphQT is a pack of components for Quicktime, which is pretty  
> much only useful for Mac OS X users.
sorry i wasn''t clear on that, i meant to say vorbis decoder.
> Furthermore, you say that Flash has only one audio solution included.
well, this feels a bit nit picky, but  i said "we have an audio  
solution".  that is, we have a solution for audio, and that there are  
in fact a few encoders to choose from is an implementation detail.
> Take notice, as well, that half of those solutions are patented and  
> require a license for use within Flash applications.
which means that the other half are already free.  so adding another  
free one won''t really give us "more leverage" as seems to
have been
implied.  don''t get me wrong, *I* personally would love to see Vorbis  
get in there.

>
>> No one would have to install the XiphQT (as you said) if there was 
>> support for all (or some) of our formats in the Flash player
> that''s exactly what point 2 was attempting to point out.  however 
> point 1 was that we do NOT want to make the flash player any bigger 
> (in bytes), which precludes us from including even more code, eg: the 
> vorbis decoder.
>
One thing to understand is that it''s unreasonable to expect that the 
flash player can NOT grow in size.  Past versions clearly show this : 
http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/knowledgebase/index.cfm?id=tn_14266

however it is also important to understand that the reason we want 
vorbis to be included natively in flash is not as much because of it''s 
"free nature" or for support of yet another media format (although
they
are certainly good reasons), but rather because vorbis is a clearly 
superior audio format that has shown over and over again to outperform 
most (arguably all) other media formats for audio.  It''s not also about
quality too, existing formats have horrible implementation for metadata, 
which for anyone hoping to do anything remotely interesting with audio 
(pandora.com ?) is required to jump through a whole mess of technical 
hoops for a decent implementation.  Ogg Vorbis'' metadata implementation
is simple, and solves a lot of complex problems for many people.  
Currently, Flash''s audio implementation for streaming media is, well, 
very rudimentary.    Currently, the only way to support metadata in a 
streaming audio fashion is via ID3 tags, which pretty much excludes all 
current mp3 streaming solutions (which don''t send ID3 tags).


so my main point here (and it''s my point, not necessarily
xiph''s point)
is that we certainly wouldn''t ask Adobe to incorporate something new 
(increasing the net size of the flash player) without a considerable 
amount of "added value".  All we want is the ability to present the
case
that vorbis does add enough value to justify the addition.

Ed