Can someone who really knows the Ogg command-line encoder, help recommend the best setting for 33.6k modem stereo music streaming? (56k doesn't count cuz many people's 56k modems don't work at a full 56k, and I want them to be able to surf CD Baby at the same time as listening. 2 minutes / 120 seconds of audio should be about 400k.) I'm at my wit's end: tried everything I know with the Ogg encoder, and still sounds like shit compared to RealAudio G2, unless I get the filesize twice as big. There must be some way Ogg can sound almost as good as RealAudio for lo-fi, right? I'm DYING to ditch RealAudio from our site! Hell if Ogg can sound that good on a 33.6k modem, I'll go be an Ogg evangelist to 30,000 musicians and 200,000 customers. But I haven't been able to do it yet. Can anyone help? <p><p> -- Derek Sivers, CD Baby, Hostbaby http://www.cdbaby.com <-- best new independent music http://www.hostbaby.com <-- web hosting for musicians --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Derek at CD Baby wrote:> Can someone who really knows the Ogg command-line encoder, help recommend the best setting for 33.6k modem stereo music streaming?You'll have to resample (--resample 11025) - see if q 0 gives small enough filesizes, otherwise try if q -1 sounds good enough for you. I'm not familiar on how good RealAudio G2 sounds at those bitrates, but I find the following examples "acceptable": oggenc -q 0 --resample 11025 input.wav oggenc -q -1 --resample 11025 input.wav Alternatively, you could try mono, too: oggenc -q 0 --resample 22050 --downmix input.wav oggenc -q -1 --resample 22050 --downmix input.wav <p>Moritz P.S.: q-values don't have to be whole numbers, e.g. -q -0.5731 works, too. --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Derek at CD Baby wrote:> Can someone who really knows the Ogg command-line encoder, help recommend the best setting for 33.6k modem stereo music streaming?Hah ... I just made an .rm, 32kb stereo music (normal and "high"). Looking at filesizes and compared to Vorbis, -q -1 --resample 22050 sounds better to my ears at a slightly smaller filesize. I haven't checked out the 24kbps modes of RA, yet, but my guess is that Vorbis can compete well. The sound is different - Vorbis is more squishy while RA sounds more metallic/harsh ... Play around a little with resampling, mono and different q-values, you'll find a nice/working mode eventually. I see no reason to use bitrate management either, but if everything else fails (bitrate peaks due to rare/uncommon music), it might help, too. Note that using bitrate management (--managed and the -b parameters, plus optional -m and -M) is pretty confusing with resampling and downmixing ... :( Finding a working -b is hard - there's currently no way to get a valid range per input format. By trial and error, I found that for 22.5kHz stereo music, the lowest possible -b is 30. The line looked like this: oggenc --managed -b 30 --resample 22050 input.wav (30 kbps is the nominal bitrate for 22.5kHz input at -q -1) My test song came out 32kbps with -q -1, and 30kbps with -b 30. Quality is about the same ... <p>Moritz --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
> I'm DYING to ditch RealAudio from our site! Hell if Ogg can sound that good on a 33.6k modem, I'll go be an Ogg evangelist to 30,000 musicians and 200,000 customers. But I haven't been able to do it yet.Few of us are super-familiar with RealAudio quality. If you could provide us some .wavs and corresponding .ras, people will be more able to experiement and help you find some suitable Ogg quality. Or we'll figure out that we're a little shy in this area and work to improve it quickly :) I'll host them on xiph.org if you don't want to spare the bandwidth. jack. --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Derek at CD Baby wrote:> Can someone who really knows the Ogg command-line encoder, help > recommend the best setting for 33.6k modem stereo music streaming?16kHz 24 kb/s CBR 16 bit stereo is the best I could make work <p>Akos --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Sunday, January 12, 2003, 3:55:58 AM, Giuliano Pochini wrote: GP> This is the first RA I listen :))) I can't encode in RA, so I tested GP> only your clip. I think RA sounds overall better than vorbis at 20kbps GP> :( Vorbis at -q-1 --resample 22050 --downmix sounds just as expected: no GP> high frqs (22KHz) and sounds like water with a constant quality. Xmms GP> doesn't filter sound while upsampling and that adds unpleasant noise. RA GP> destroys percussions more than vorbis but performs better on voice. GP> Also, quality is not constant and slightly shifts "focus" back and forth GP> from voice to music. Not very nice. IMHO, comparing RA to Vorbis is just like you compare vector and raster images and then say that the vector one looks more sharpen, its lines are thinner, colors are more solid and so on. Vorbis' sound quality is higher by design, because it encodes the full music image and therefore maintains your better sound experience. When someone doesn't need this he saves a speech in a txt format, simple melody in midi (or mod, xm) etc. It's only a question of preferences and tastes. -- Egor --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
First, there is a problem with the original 44 kHz stereo WAV file, mentioned previously, which I'll expand upon:>From about 27 seconds in, when it gets louder (Chorus), there's a sound ofpretty severe clipping distortion, which is confirmed on CoolEdit (in Windows) as bottoming out of the waveforms at an amplitude of -32768 (full scale). There's also some at 17-19 seconds on the word "I'll" and the syllable "Out" (from word "Outside"), though it's not quite so severe. Clipping on the original WAV (for more than a couple of samples in succession, at least) plays havoc with the frequency content and can really sound bad when encoded using lossy compression because it creates louder content in high frequency components than is typical of music, and can suck away bits that should be encoding the music to encode the distortion artifacts instead. The quieter first part of the recording is barely within the clipping limits, but just survives. I presume that if this was digitally ripped from CD, a scaling factor has been applied (which is dangerous with modern over-loud, amplitude-compressed mastering that usually peaks the CDs at full scale). Otherwise it's been ripped via the soundcard (analog rip) with the CD volume up fairly high. In that case, reduce the CD volume on the recording mixer volume control or find out how to do digital audio extraction direct from the CD (which is usually faster than 1x, even with the best tools like Exact Audio Copy for Windows) <p>Anyway, knowing now that your RealAudio is mono and that you want to cater for modem streaming at no more than about 28 kbps, command lines such as this are suitable: oggenc -M 28 --downmix --resample 16000 Kasey.wav (this came to 23.9 kb/s) I think this is the best. Most artifacts are suppressed but the sparkle of the top-end of the frequency response is absent due to the 8 kHz maximum frequency. (I'm using headphones, so I won't tolerate artifacts as much as I might with loudspeakers) <p>If you're prepared to accept smushing of the vocals more to the extent of RealAudio, try a higher bandwidth to get more high-frequencies back (11 kHz for 22050, 16 kHz for 32000, the latter being a wideband as FM radio). oggenc -M 28 --downmix --resample 22050 Kasey.wav (this was 27.1 kb/s) oggenc -M 28 --downmix --resample 32000 Kasey.wav (This was 25.3 kb/s) If you want to allow the full bandwidth, you'll find that 32 kbps is the nominal bandwidth of the 44100 sampling rate, mono at Vorbis q -1.00, so the -M function can't be used without a -q setting. oggenc - M 32 -q -1.0 --downmix Kasey.wav (actually gives 35.8 kb/s, so -M 32 wasn't able to provide a hard limit) This is a considerably bigger file than the previous ones, and sounds nicer (thanks to the extra bits encoding it). If you actually want stereo, I'd suggest something like oggenc -q 0 --resample 16000 Kasey.wav (this was 30.7 kb/s) Regarding compatibility, to ensure your listeners don't have pitch-shifting (like a slow record or tape) use --resample rates from the following list only: 8000 11025 16000 22025 32000 44100 48000 (for some reason even 12000 and 24000 don't work at the right speed/pitch on my office PC, even though they're submultiples of 48000) <p>Also, I notice that a certain harshness (which feels like reduction in smooth bass) is introduced when I resample below 44100, especially below 32000, even on quality 10. I suspect this is due to my soundcard not adjusting the bandwidth, so you get staircasing. Oversampling with post-filtering (e.g. a very short FIR filter) would remove this (in fact I use just such a homemade filter, but in 2 dimensions, when upsampling in photo editing to remove the aliasing 'jaggies' at spatial frequencies beyond those of the original resolution). Unfortunately, WinAmp software won't upsample for me to bypass the shortcomings of my soundcard, if that's what it is (and such a software solution could also let me play music at 24000 samples/second properly). Upsampling and post-filtering at the same stage as adding decoding dither would be ideal options for a high-quality plugin to allow (and the Ogg Vorbis plugin already offers dither and ReplayGain, so it's high-end). Regards, BHA _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
B.H. Anderson wrote:> Unfortunately, WinAmp software won't > upsample for me to bypass the shortcomings of my soundcard.I use the SQRSoft crossfading output plugin for Winamp and it does do resampling on the fly. You can always turn off the crossfading if you don't want it. http://www.sqrsoft.com.ar Ross Levis http://winvorbis.stationplaylist.com --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
P.S. Is this a bug? oggenc -M 32 -q -1.0 --downmix YourSong.wav gets the exact same filesize (down to the very byte) as oggenc -M 28 -q -1.0 --downmix YourSong.wav ... and both are at about 35-40k bitrate. (NOT set to a hard 32k or 28k limit.) Does the -M maximum bitrate thing not work without resampling? <p><p> -- Derek Sivers, CD Baby, Hostbaby http://www.cdbaby.com <-- CD Baby, the store http://www.cdbaby.net <-- musician's back door http://www.hostbaby.com <-- web hosting for musicians <p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
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