Hi, I was just reading on Adobe Flash<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash>and the components which make it up: SWF, ActionScript, and FLV.>From what I've read, SVG is competing with SWF as the format of vectorgraphics in web design, while ActionScript is an ECMAScript like JavaScript. Hence, SVG + Javascript can provide an interactive, animated, open, non-proprietary web design paradigm. However, FLV, in the way that it is usually applied, doesn't have an equivalent. It is a video container format that is technically playable on its own, but is usually (that is, in the case of Youtube), embedded in an SWF+ActionScript file, which is then embedded in an HTML page. So I've read about Flumotion's Cortado, which embeds Theora streams into web pages via a Java applet. However, would it be possible for Theora to be embedded into SVG+JavaScript, then embedded into a web page? I know that Microsoft is doing the same with their WPF/E thing (Expression vector format+JScript .NET+WMV), so I'm just wondering if the same could be done with Theora. Thanks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/theora/attachments/20070127/7483836f/attachment.html
Hi, So far, the only metadata that has been able to be embedded in SVG are image formats - PNG, JPG, and GIF (although I stay away from GIF like the plague). Other image formats like WMF or TIFF can be embedded but output would be at the mercy of the SVG viewer. I've tried many methods to get some audio working in SVG but no go so far. The only way--as far as I know--to get anything video-like in SVG is to use a series of PNG/JPG images and display them in sequence - it's just a shame that audio wouldn't be there. *EDIT - due to 1yr old son running around and making me laugh <insert laugh here> forgot to mention audio is possible, but mainly with Adobe's SVG player or other methods which are non-standard - not good. Most open-source browsers are able to read SVG with ease, and Opera aswell. Internet Explorer has limited ability to read SVG, although that is with IE7. There is an Adobe SVG plugin available to overcome this, but Adobe will be dropping support for this in Janurary 2008 - http://www.adobe.com/svg/viewer/install/ On a side note, if embedding a video in SVG is possible, being an XML based file format allows only ASCII characters, which means a binary file to would need to be converted to Base64 encoding, and that would make the file around 4 times its normal size. The only way around this is to find a standard way of compressing the file such as "filename.svg.gz" or "filename.sgv.zip" or... I'm sure you get the idea. *EDIT - same reason as the first edit - there is filename.svgz but some players are unable to read this format, and most of the time svgz is also used when non-standard SVG is contained inside. I've been using SVG for some time now and the only way for things to advance in SVG is to make an open-source SVG plugin that supports Theora, but I'd try as much as possible to stick with W3C standards which, at the moment, only outputs text, vector shapes and raster images. -Sam On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 07:03:34 +1000, Rayne Van-Dunem <raynenamibia@gmail.com> wrote:> Hi, I was just reading on Adobe > Flash<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash>and the components > which make it up: SWF, ActionScript, and FLV. > >> From what I've read, SVG is competing with SWF as the format of vector > graphics in web design, while ActionScript is an ECMAScript like > JavaScript. > Hence, SVG + Javascript can provide an interactive, animated, open, > non-proprietary web design paradigm. > > However, FLV, in the way that it is usually applied, doesn't have an > equivalent. It is a video container format that is technically playable > on > its own, but is usually (that is, in the case of Youtube), embedded in an > SWF+ActionScript file, which is then embedded in an HTML page. > > So I've read about Flumotion's Cortado, which embeds Theora streams into > web > pages via a Java applet. > > However, would it be possible for Theora to be embedded into > SVG+JavaScript, > then embedded into a web page? > > I know that Microsoft is doing the same with their WPF/E thing > (Expression > vector format+JScript .NET+WMV), so I'm just wondering if the same could > be > done with Theora. > > Thanks.-- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Hi, So far, the only metadata that has been able to be embedded in SVG are image formats - PNG, JPG, and GIF (although I stay away from GIF like the plague). Other image formats like WMF or TIFF can be embedded but output would be at the mercy of the SVG viewer. I've tried many methods to get some audio working in SVG but no go so far. The only way--as far as I know--to get anything video-like in SVG is to use a series of PNG/JPG images and display them in sequence - it's just a shame that audio wouldn't be there. Most open-source browsers are able to read SVG with ease, and Opera aswell. Internet Explorer has limited ability to read SVG, although that is with IE7. There is an Adobe SVG plugin available to overcome this, but Adobe will be dropping support for this in Janurary 2008 - http://www.adobe.com/svg/viewer/install/ On a side note, if embedding a video in SVG is possible, being an XML based file format allows only ASCII characters, which means a binary file to would need to be converted to Base64 encoding, and that would make the file around 4 times its normal size. The only way around this is to find a standard way of compressing the file such as "filename.svg.gz" or "filename.sgv.zip" or... I'm sure you get the idea. I've been using SVG for some time now and the only way for things to advance in SVG is to make an open-source SVG plugin that supports Theora, but I'd try as much as possible to stick with W3C standards which, at the moment, only outputs text, vector shapes and raster images. -Sam On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 07:03:34 +1000, Rayne Van-Dunem <raynenamibia@gmail.com> wrote:> Hi, I was just reading on Adobe > Flash<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash>and the components > which make it up: SWF, ActionScript, and FLV. > >> From what I've read, SVG is competing with SWF as the format of vector > graphics in web design, while ActionScript is an ECMAScript like > JavaScript. > Hence, SVG + Javascript can provide an interactive, animated, open, > non-proprietary web design paradigm. > > However, FLV, in the way that it is usually applied, doesn't have an > equivalent. It is a video container format that is technically playable > on > its own, but is usually (that is, in the case of Youtube), embedded in an > SWF+ActionScript file, which is then embedded in an HTML page. > > So I've read about Flumotion's Cortado, which embeds Theora streams into > web > pages via a Java applet. > > However, would it be possible for Theora to be embedded into > SVG+JavaScript, > then embedded into a web page? > > I know that Microsoft is doing the same with their WPF/E thing > (Expression > vector format+JScript .NET+WMV), so I'm just wondering if the same could > be > done with Theora. > > Thanks.-- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
On 1/29/07, Rayne Van-Dunem <raynenamibia@gmail.com> wrote:> So are you saying that, if we used Java as the runtime for this combination > of SVG+Javascript+Ogg, we can accomplish a similar effect or use as that of > Flash?Hmm, no. What I did say was that to copy SWF's functionalities one would have to either use a dumb Java applet (with SVG and Theora, and whatever else you want to throw inside), or to use Ogg (with SVG and Theora, and whatever else you want to throw inside). Java and Ogg don't mix. And to use Ogg in this context would probably involve creating some kind of hack to use ECMAScript, not to mention build an entire API to create "FlashOgg" applications, as well as a player to use them. But now that I think about it, this is probably something the FSF would like to do. They have been raving on for years about an open source Flash, and all they created was some kind of abortion called Gnash. It would be insanely great if this API were to be released under BSD and adopted by all the browsers around. Alright, you can't blame someone for dreaming, can you? -Ivo
Ivo made some good points on this. SVG is already a damn complex thing to implement, and it shouldn't become the "one thing that fits all needs solution". If you need to combine two technologies (video streaming and vector graphics) blame the browser architecture- Don't blame the components that do just what they ought to do. If you (Sam) put it the other way around: If SVG should support theora, why shouldn't theora support SVG? We all know that it would not be a wise idea to mix things that don't match well. A video codec does not need a vector graphic api. If you see a need to combine theora and svg, start and design a plugin architeture that allows these things to be combined and mixed. You can integrate it into the mozilla api. It's open source after all. Nils
Ivo and Nils, I can you your points there but the W3C have already been working on a draft to include multimedia elements in SVG, so if anybody has a say on where SVG is going - they do, and I'll always comply with whatever standards they publush. Here's the link from W3C's site regarding embedded video and audio in svg: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-SVG12-20041027/media.html Just note that this has been a draft since some time around 2003, not 2004, and as far as W3C drafts go I wouldn't recommend it to anybody as they can change at any time. Some drafts don't even go through at all which is why there aren't any HTML 3.0 standards around - it was just too complex so they replaced it with HTML 3.2. So a draft shouldn't be taken as a "work in progress", it's just that: a draft that could be drastically changed or even wiped out completely, and developers should not implement features in to their browers for that reason. OGG Vorbis has already been accepted as SVG's native audio format and I hope that Theora will be too by the time this draft comes through. Maybe I should of mentioned this before, but pardon me for the confusion. -Sam -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Ivo and Nils, I can you your points there but the W3C have already been working on a draft to include multimedia elements in SVG, so if anybody has a say on where SVG is going - they do, and I'll always comply with whatever standards they publush. Here's the link from W3C's site regarding embedded video and audio in svg: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-SVG12-20041027/media.html Just note that this has been a draft since some time around 2003, not 2004, and as far as W3C drafts go I wouldn't recommend it to anybody as they can change at any time. Some drafts don't even go through at all which is why there aren't any HTML 3.0 standards around - it was just too complex so they replaced it with HTML 3.2. So a draft shouldn't be taken as a "work in progress", it's just that: a draft that could be drastically changed or even wiped out completely, and developers should not implement features in to their browers for that reason. OGG Vorbis has already been accepted as SVG's native audio format and I hope that Theora will be too by the time this draft comes through. Maybe I should of mentioned this before, but pardon me for the confusion. -Sam -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/