Hi, Ady wrote:> I would suggest adding an internal link to respctive sections of the > wiki, not more text in the same page.This is reasonable. Please have a look at http://www.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php/User:Scdbackup The first section shall become the new text of http://www.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php/SYSLINUX#Creating_a_Bootable_Disk The second section shall become a new section Bad Heritage on MS-DOS disk in http://www.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php/Common_Problems [about USB Geometry]> My point was about the several possible ways such wording could be > interpreted by different users when reading them in the Syslinux > wiki.I meanwhile united the section "USB Miscellenous" with http://www.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php/Hardware_Compatibility#USB-Geometry Now it is a bit too long but does not show an artificial separation of general statements and examples. It is a vague as needed and as tangible as possible, i think. Please have a look and criticize. Any objection is welcome. Have a nice day :) Thomas
> I meanwhile united the section "USB Miscellenous" with > http://www.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php/Hardware_Compatibility#USB-Geometry > Now it is a bit too long but does not show an artificial > separation of general statements and examples. > It is a vague as needed and as tangible as possible, i think. > > Please have a look and criticize. Any objection is welcome.Most user-friendly partitioning tools are actually "hiding" the CHS values of each partition from the user. They are using MB values instead. I personally don't like this "hiding", but I understand their reasons to do so. I think that the "USB-Geometry" section in the wiki should try to point to the same kind of users. Those who understand the matter already, don't really need more detailed explanations in the Syslinux wiki. For those that want to learn about it, there are better places than the Syslinux wiki. In the USB-Geometry section in the Syslinux wiki, IMHO we should point to those that are having a problem and, for some reason, are thinking that Syslinux is the problem (which, is not). So, in the same line of user-friendly partitioning tools, I think that a very basic description and generic steps are OK, but getting into details about where to start the partition, where to end it, which alignment to use... I think that it makes it more scary than anything else. Once the user chooses the partitioning tool, he has to change the geometry to make it adequate. Whether the alignment is one or the other, it shouldn't matter (in the context of the Syslinux wiki, and trying to improve bootability). Alignments are more about efficiency and capacity. One typical problem for users: they forget to set the partition as "active". So then they don't understand why their USB drive is not booting. In a very broad view, there are effectively two options so to improve bootability: _ Nx255x63, one-and-only partition with MiB alignment _ ZIP-like geometry, optionally / alternatively using the fourth partition only. IMHO, getting into more details with specific CHS values and examples might derail and/or discourage users, who, after all, just want to boot their USB and move on. *** At some point there was a question about Windows-based users (for example in relation to mkdiskimage). There are enough (GUI) tools available for Windows users to operate on the MBR / partition table of a USB drive, and then format the resulting partition. I would say that for Windows users the problem might be, independently of the geometry, discovering that the USB drive might contain additional partitions in the first place (note: Windows normally won't let the user see more than one partition in USB removable flash drives). Regards, Ady.
Hi, Ady wrote:> I personally don't like this "hiding" [of CHS], but I understand > their reasons to do so. > > I think that the "USB-Geometry" section in the wiki should try to > point to the same kind of users.But it is in wiki page Hardware_Compatibility. Check out the neighborhood. If there is a place to - for once - state how a "normal" partition table should look like, then there. The user of partitioning tools shall rather be directed to the text which currently evolves at http://www.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php/User:Scdbackup#New_Common_Problems_Bad_Heritage_on_MS_DOS_disk and only at the end of that section, there will be a link to Hardware_Compatibility#USB-Geometry.> Once the user chooses the partitioning tool, he has to change the > geometry to make it adequate. Whether the alignment is one or the > other, it shouldn't matter (in the context of the Syslinux wiki, and > trying to improve bootability).We have strong evidence meanwhile that Ronald's two problem sticks both bear deceiving H and S in their end CHS. See ftp://ftp.tristatelogic.com/private/ady/ubcd.0 end CHS is 969, 21, 21 ftp://ftp.tristatelogic.com/private/ady/oe.0 end CHS is 492, 150, 42 We do not know for sure whether changing the end CHS of ubcd to 242,254,63 would fix it. But i think everybody will agree that "22 heads, 21 sectors/track" is not the best start for a SYSLINUX installation.> One typical problem for users: they forget to set the partition as > "active". So then they don't understand why their USB drive is not > booting.Ok. This is now mentioned in User:Scdbackup#New_Common_Problems_Bad_Heritage_on_MS_DOS_disk> In a very broad view, there are effectively two options so to improve > bootability: > _ Nx255x63, one-and-only partition with MiB alignmentI hope for the partitioning tools to guide the user. But MiB alignment does not match 255x63 cylinders. (Or at least only in very large steps. They share no prime factors except the block size.)> _ ZIP-like geometry, optionally / alternatively using the fourth > partition only.That would be option -4 of mkdiskimage. Its helptext is shown in my partition-tool-oriented text. So the reader can easily get to that idea. I could need examples of original successfull runs of mkdiskimage. Do we have any happy users of this tool here ?> IMHO, getting into more details with specific CHS values and examples > might derail and/or discourage users, who, after all, just want to > boot their USB and move on.Thus the careful escalation of detail. Beginning by: "In order to create a bootable disk using SYSLINUX, prepare a normal MS-DOS formatted disk. If you are in doubt that your disk is normal enough, see this description [[Common_Problems#Bad_Heritage_on_MS_DOS_disk|this description]]." which leads the user to: "The wiki prescribes to install SYSLINUX into a normal MS-DOS formatted disk. Depending on the history of your disk or pen drive, it might be less normal than needed. You will learn by SYSLINUX failing to boot properly." followed by a generic prescription for setting up the disk from scratch. Then comes the help text of mkdiskimage and hopefully a few examples for the operating systems mentioned in the main wiki. Finally a link to the die-hard article http://www.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php/Hardware_Compatibility#USB_related_problems> I would say that for Windows users the problem might be, > independently of the geometry, discovering that the USB drive might > contain additional partitions in > the first place (note: Windows normally won't let the user see more > than one partition in USB removable flash drives).Even more reason to give them an example with mkdiskimage which can be executed more or less blindly. --------------------------------------------------------------- Intermediate summary: I defend Hardware_Compatibility#USB-Geometry until more people join Ady's opinion that it is more confusing than helping. (I count Gene on my side :)) We both made our points by now. The article is sufficiently hidden to do not much harm until we come to a final decision. I try to bring Ady's points into a new article Common_Problems#Bad_Heritage_on_MS_DOS_disk which shall make proposals on application level. It is evolving at: http://www.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php/User:Scdbackup#New_Common_Problems_Bad_Heritage_on_MS_DOS_disk @Ady: Did i represent your points sufficiently here ? Anything i skipped by mistake ? --------------------------------------------------------------- Have a nice day :) Thomas