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...et the Error strata working.) My use of matrix manipulation to avoid qr decompositon takes more time than the complied solver build into lm.fit. It seems that the real reason for doing aov differently would be if the determination of Error strata and which factors to evaluate in any given error statum requires a different approach from lm.fit. I'm not going to worry about speed of lm.fit anymore, so that avoids most of the other questions I had posed. Douglas Bates has suggested: DB> I think that a general approach via maximum likelihood or REML to DB> anova models with random effe...