Rubyinstaller devel - Aug 2009 - Is the work done here not being exposed properly?

Hey Guys,

After reading some of the comments in the recent Antonio Canganio post:

http://antoniocangiano.com/2009/08/03/performance-of-ironruby-ruby-on-windows/

Raised me the concern of my lack of communication skills.

I sent a long reply with all the links of published and advertised
progress, but seems the post got moderated. Until that...

Should I change something? I mean, I''m not a communication expert, but
seems that I''m not doing it right to communicate what''s
happening with
the project or the amazing progress we did.

I mean, I''m even getting (and paying) for a software certificate to
sign the installers so they become a trustful resource. Started with
the website contest, posted to RubyForge news section, ruby-talk and
written tutorial articles, even after that, still not enough?

Please, be open and sincere about it, I''m open to comments or
suggestions to change what I''m doing wrong.

Thank you in advance guys.
-- 
Luis Lavena
AREA 17
-
Perfection in design is achieved not when there is nothing more to add,
but rather when there is nothing more to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exup?ry

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 9:20 AM, Luis Lavena<luislavena at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Should I change something? I mean, I''m not a communication expert,
but
> seems that I''m not doing it right to communicate what''s
happening with
> the project or the amazing progress we did.
I think there''s two main issues.

1) No links from ruby-lang.org to the rubyinstaller
2) No content on rubyinstaller.org at all.

I believe that if these two issues were resolved it would make a great
deal of progress towards getting the word out.


-- 
Find me - http://www.smajn.net/social

2009/8/3 Matt H <matt at smajn.net>:
> On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 9:20 AM, Luis Lavena<luislavena at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>> Should I change something? I mean, I''m not a communication
expert, but
>> seems that I''m not doing it right to communicate
what''s happening with
>> the project or the amazing progress we did.
>
> I think there''s two main issues.
>
> 1) No links from ruby-lang.org to the rubyinstaller
> 2) No content on rubyinstaller.org at all.
>
> I believe that if these two issues were resolved it would make a great
> deal of progress towards getting the word out.
>
Also some announcements of progress on ruby-talk would raise the
awareness of non-involved people about this project, what it is doing,
and how far it got already. There are people asking about windows
installers from time to time.

The lack of any official release makes it look like there is nothing
going on. People tend to overlook projects that do not deliver
immediate and continuous noise.

It is true that the new installer is not a drop-in replacement for the
old all-in-one ruby one click installer. However, people using various
subsets of the original one click installer functionality might be
able to test and use an installer with fewer libraries but newer ruby.

Thanks

Michal

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Matt H<matt at smajn.net>
wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 9:20 AM, Luis Lavena<luislavena at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>> Should I change something? I mean, I''m not a communication
expert, but
>> seems that I''m not doing it right to communicate
what''s happening with
>> the project or the amazing progress we did.
>
> I think there''s two main issues.
>
> 1) No links from ruby-lang.org to the rubyinstaller
Thank you.
> 2) No content on rubyinstaller.org at all.
>
Been working on that with the guys here and the wiki at GitHub.

Once the website is ready the content is going to be migrated there.
> I believe that if these two issues were resolved it would make a great
> deal of progress towards getting the word out.
>
I believe the same, thank you.
-- 
Luis Lavena
AREA 17
-
Perfection in design is achieved not when there is nothing more to add,
but rather when there is nothing more to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exup?ry

> Please, be open and sincere about it, I''m open to comments or
> suggestions to change what I''m doing wrong.
I''d suggest "alpha releases" on the
http://rubyforge.org/projects/rubyinstaller/ web site--otherwise
nobody knows where to look, and it''s as if the new mingw releases
don''t exist.
=r

> After reading some of the comments in the recent Antonio Canganio post:
>
>
http://antoniocangiano.com/2009/08/03/performance-of-ironruby-ruby-on-windows/
>
> Raised me the concern of my lack of communication skills.
Here''s his response:
http://groups.google.com/group/ruby-benchmark-suite/browse_thread/thread/6816ccd721d0670b
[last entry].
-r

2009/8/3 Matt Hulse <matt.hulse at gmail.com>:
> I agree with Roger.? In fact, I tried to add an experimental section to the
> Rubyforge wiki myself at
> http://rubyinstaller.rubyforge.org/wiki/wiki.pl?RubyInstaller (the target
of
> the ruby-lang downloads ''one-click installer'' link).? My
edit failed because
> of the external link and security settings on the wiki.
>
Indeed the wiki is completely unfriendly. Gordon Thiesfeld did some
content editing but when I try do other adjustments was kicking me out
too.
> If there was better info on that page, I would have found your work much
> sooner.
If I could have added it, would have done it sooner :P
> (Excellent work by the way!)
>
Thanks.
> There is some info under bleeding edge development but that deals with
> building Ruby yourself.? There is nothing on the page that will get a user
> to http://rubyinstaller.org/downloads.
>
I have to agree.

So the best thing to do is next preview release is put on RubyForge
and put the correct notice and warn labels ;-)

That is going to help a bit more until the website is done and the
"Coming soon" can go away ;-)

Thank you guys.
-- 
Luis Lavena
AREA 17
-
Perfection in design is achieved not when there is nothing more to add,
but rather when there is nothing more to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exup?ry

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Roger Pack<rogerdpack at gmail.com>
wrote:
>> Please, be open and sincere about it, I''m open to comments or
>> suggestions to change what I''m doing wrong.
>
> I''d suggest "alpha releases" on the
> http://rubyforge.org/projects/rubyinstaller/ web site--otherwise
> nobody knows where to look, and it''s as if the new mingw releases
> don''t exist.
> =r
The news section is good, but it''s buried at the lower left hand side
of the page.  The rubyforge page also lists the rubyforge wiki as the
project''s homepage, which hasn''t been updated in a while.  Do
you
think this should be switched to the github wiki until
rubyinstaller.org is ready?  I can do that, if you''re ok with it,
Luis.  I''ve added links in the github wiki to the rubyinstaller
downloads page and the rubyforge bug tracker.

Amy Hoy has some good articles on this subject.  Here''s one[1] in
particular that''s worth a look.

[1]http://slash7.com/articles/2007/2/26/pimpin-products-aint-easy

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 5:11 PM, Gordon Thiesfeld<gthiesfeld at gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Roger Pack<rogerdpack at gmail.com>
wrote:
>>> Please, be open and sincere about it, I''m open to comments
or
>>> suggestions to change what I''m doing wrong.
>>
>> I''d suggest "alpha releases" on the
>> http://rubyforge.org/projects/rubyinstaller/ web site--otherwise
>> nobody knows where to look, and it''s as if the new mingw
releases
>> don''t exist.
>> =r
>
> The news section is good, but it''s buried at the lower left hand
side
> of the page. ?The rubyforge page also lists the rubyforge wiki as the
> project''s homepage, which hasn''t been updated in a while.
?Do you
> think this should be switched to the github wiki until
> rubyinstaller.org is ready? ?I can do that, if you''re ok with it,
> Luis.
Yes! Please do.

I would put a huge box on top of the current wiki pointing to the GitHub one.
> I''ve added links in the github wiki to the rubyinstaller
> downloads page and the rubyforge bug tracker.
Thank you.

Definitely next preview release is going to be hosted and announced at
RubyForge.
> Amy Hoy has some good articles on this subject. ?Here''s one[1] in
> particular that''s worth a look.
>
> [1]http://slash7.com/articles/2007/2/26/pimpin-products-aint-easy
Thank you for the link!

I remember saw that, but couldn''t find it...

Mea culpa:

"""
Don?t? use blog posts as the only way to find and download the product.

Puh-leeze for the love of all that is good and usable do not do this.
The last thing I need to do when I want something is search your blog
to try and figure out which blog post is the most recent version. I
speak for myself, but I know I?m not alone in this one. This very
mistake is what prompted me to write this thing.
"""

-- 
Luis Lavena
AREA 17
-
Perfection in design is achieved not when there is nothing more to add,
but rather when there is nothing more to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exup?ry

2009/8/3 Jon <jon.forums at gmail.com>:
> One thing I''d like to see happen very quickly is to ask Pavel to
hack up a
> cut down version of
>
> http://www.matcheck.cz/rubyinstaller/rubyinstaller_homepage.html
>
> in which the only working links are for (a) the download "red
box" graphic,
> and (b) the "Download" text at the top of the page....both should
link to
> http://rubyinstaller.org/downloads/
>
Pavel is on the move and should be getting back on track this week (I hope).

I''ll get in touch with him.

I can ask RubyForge admins to switch the URL of rubyforge.org to point
to GitHub. will check with them.
> This will act as a simple static facade until the real web site is up and
> working.? We can even hard code in some additional placeholder content if
> needed, but the point is I strongly believe we need to get a basic web site
> up.
>
Also, wrote a draft giving some bucks for a Radiant expert to
translate those to our website. I lack the Radiant knowledge (and the
time) to do it myself.
> Pavel''s mockup homepage looks GREAT and is a good
start....let''s use as much
> of it as make sense to jump start things.
>
> Even if it''s just the part from the blue band up to the top,
it''s *much*
> better than what we''ve got now :)
>
Oh, you mean the "Coming soon"... took me a lot to put that file
online! ;-)

What if we just put a simple page with the info and concentrate the
links until the site is done? I can get the Radiant and the DB put in
place tonight.
> More to come...
>
Awesome!

--
Luis Lavena
AREA 17
-
Perfection in design is achieved not when there is nothing more to add,
but rather when there is nothing more to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exup?ry

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Luis Lavena<luislavena at gmail.com>
wrote:
>> The news section is good, but it''s buried at the lower left
hand side
>> of the page. ?The rubyforge page also lists the rubyforge wiki as the
>> project''s homepage, which hasn''t been updated in a
while. ?Do you
>> think this should be switched to the github wiki until
>> rubyinstaller.org is ready? ?I can do that, if you''re ok with
it,
>> Luis.
>
> Yes! Please do.
Oops!  I lied.  I have to be a project admin to update the project homepage.
>
> I would put a huge box on top of the current wiki pointing to the GitHub
one.
>
This I believe I can do something about.

2009/8/3 Matt Hulse <matt.hulse at gmail.com>:
> I agree with Roger.? In fact, I tried to add an experimental section to the
> Rubyforge wiki myself at
> http://rubyinstaller.rubyforge.org/wiki/wiki.pl?RubyInstaller (the target
of
> the ruby-lang downloads ''one-click installer'' link).? My
edit failed because
> of the external link and security settings on the wiki.
>
> If there was better info on that page, I would have found your work much
> sooner.
> (Excellent work by the way!)
I know the super secret method of adding external links.  I''ve updated
the "How to Add an External Link" section of the wiki with my email
address, should anyone want to know.

Thanks,

Gordon

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Gordon Thiesfeld<gthiesfeld at gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Luis Lavena<luislavena at gmail.com>
wrote:
>>> The news section is good, but it''s buried at the lower
left hand side
>>> of the page. ?The rubyforge page also lists the rubyforge wiki as
the
>>> project''s homepage, which hasn''t been updated in
a while. ?Do you
>>> think this should be switched to the github wiki until
>>> rubyinstaller.org is ready? ?I can do that, if you''re ok
with it,
>>> Luis.
>>
>> Yes! Please do.
>
> Oops! ?I lied. ?I have to be a project admin to update the project
homepage.
Go figure, I had my magic wand at hand and just made you Admin...
>> I would put a huge box on top of the current wiki pointing to the
GitHub one.
>>
>
> This I believe I can do something about.
Thank you :-)
-- 
Luis Lavena
AREA 17
-
Perfection in design is achieved not when there is nothing more to add,
but rather when there is nothing more to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exup?ry

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Luis Lavena<luislavena at gmail.com>
wrote:
> I can ask RubyForge admins to switch the URL of rubyforge.org to point
> to GitHub. will check with them.
>
I can do this (now that I''m an admin ;-) ), if you think it''s
best.
My vote would be to wait until we have rubyinstaller.org up and
redirect it there, but I''ll be happy to point it to the github wiki,
if so desired.

Thanks,

Gordon

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 6:24 PM, Gordon Thiesfeld<gthiesfeld at gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Luis Lavena<luislavena at gmail.com>
wrote:
>> I can ask RubyForge admins to switch the URL of rubyforge.org to point
>> to GitHub. will check with them.
>>
>
> I can do this (now that I''m an admin ;-) ), if you think
it''s best.
> My vote would be to wait until we have rubyinstaller.org up and
> redirect it there, but I''ll be happy to point it to the github
wiki,
> if so desired.
>
Let''s keep as is and add the pointer to the old wiki pointing to the
new one.
> Thanks,
Thanks to you.

-- 
Luis Lavena
AREA 17
-
Perfection in design is achieved not when there is nothing more to add,
but rather when there is nothing more to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exup?ry

On Mon, 3 Aug 2009 18:31:09 -0300
Luis Lavena <luislavena at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 6:24 PM, Gordon Thiesfeld<gthiesfeld at
gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Luis Lavena<luislavena at
gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I can ask RubyForge admins to switch the URL of rubyforge.org to
point
> >> to GitHub. will check with them.
> >>
> >
> > I can do this (now that I''m an admin ;-) ), if you think
it''s best.
> > My vote would be to wait until we have rubyinstaller.org up and
> > redirect it there, but I''ll be happy to point it to the
github wiki,
> > if so desired.
> >
> 
> Let''s keep as is and add the pointer to the old wiki pointing to
the new one.

Nice. I like how the rubyforge wiki page now bounces to the GitHub wiki.

How about doing the same to http://rubyforge.org/scm/?group_id=167

...and let''s check all the other links on rubyforge and point them to
the appropriate GitHub page for the short term.

Jon

> Oh, you mean the "Coming soon"... took me a lot to put that file
online! ;-)
> 
> What if we just put a simple page with the info and concentrate the
> links until the site is done? I can get the Radiant and the DB put in
> place tonight.
How about we keep the Radiant and DB efforts kept to an alpha web site until
it''s closer to being ready.  Keep the Radiant effort focused on being
the "real" site and don''t try to have it perform two
different roles.

In the short term, let''s put up a simple static page for
http://rubyinstaller.org/ and http://rubyinstaller.org/downloads/ with a couple
of links back to GitHub.

As many have mentioned, we can then redirect the appropriate rubyforge pages to
rubyinstaller/github pages.  This will be the 1st phase of the new site.  It
won''t be the final of course, but I think it will great for the short
term and begin to get people used to where the new info will be.

If you''ll contact me offline and tell me how/where it''s hosted
I''ll do the work to create the simple static pages based upon
Pavel''s first rough draft.

Taking a look at his work, I think it''s fairly straightforward to whip
up a static HTML, CSS w/Blueprint, PNG images, and a few links that will look
cool.  I''ll tweak his existing graphics and when he''s back
online, he and I can coordinate to ensure quick placeholder page is consistent
with what he''s doing for the main Radiant site.  I''ll also
begin color coordinating the GitHub pages with his color scheme in order to make
things mesh together a little better.

Jon

On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Jon<jon.forums at gmail.com>
wrote:
>> Oh, you mean the "Coming soon"... took me a lot to put that
file online! ;-)
>>
>> What if we just put a simple page with the info and concentrate the
>> links until the site is done? I can get the Radiant and the DB put in
>> place tonight.
>
> How about we keep the Radiant and DB efforts kept to an alpha web site
until it''s closer to being ready. ?Keep the Radiant effort focused on
being the "real" site and don''t try to have it perform two
different roles.
>
> In the short term, let''s put up a simple static page for
http://rubyinstaller.org/ and http://rubyinstaller.org/downloads/ with a couple
of links back to GitHub.
>
Ok, sounds reasonable.
> As many have mentioned, we can then redirect the appropriate rubyforge
pages to rubyinstaller/github pages. ?This will be the 1st phase of the new
site. ?It won''t be the final of course, but I think it will great for
the short term and begin to get people used to where the new info will be.
>
> If you''ll contact me offline and tell me how/where it''s
hosted I''ll do the work to create the simple static pages based upon
Pavel''s first rough draft.
>
Will do.
> Taking a look at his work, I think it''s fairly straightforward to
whip up a static HTML, CSS w/Blueprint, PNG images, and a few links that will
look cool. ?I''ll tweak his existing graphics and when he''s
back online, he and I can coordinate to ensure quick placeholder page is
consistent with what he''s doing for the main Radiant site.
?I''ll also begin color coordinating the GitHub pages with his color
scheme in order to make things mesh together a little better.
>
Don''t kill yourself in the process, just a placeholder with proper
links and a brief of information is enough.

Thank you once again for the effort.

PS: When we would be able to know your last name? :D
-- 
Luis Lavena
AREA 17
-
Perfection in design is achieved not when there is nothing more to add,
but rather when there is nothing more to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exup?ry

> > I agree with Roger.? In fact, I tried to add an experimental section
to the
> > Rubyforge wiki myself at
> > http://rubyinstaller.rubyforge.org/wiki/wiki.pl?RubyInstaller (the
target of
> > the ruby-lang downloads ''one-click installer''
link).? My edit failed because
> > of the external link and security settings on the wiki.
Gordon...like link on the rubyforge wiki that points to the github main wiki
page as well as the github main wiki page link to
http://rubyinstaller.org/downloads/


> So the best thing to do is next preview release is put on RubyForge
> and put the correct notice and warn labels ;-)
I''m not so sure we want to be changing locations of where the next
preview release will be.  It''s confusing and frustrating to people if
the download locations keep changing.

I''m for keeping all of the preview releases on
http://rubyinstaller.org/downloads/ and double check that all of the links on
rubyforge.org point to Gordon''s updates to our main github wiki page. 
This will be the download page once the final site goes live and we should start
getting everyone used to going to this page.

As soon as I finish with the new static page for http://rubyinstaller.org/ we
can start pointing things there once we''re happy with it.

> That is going to help a bit more until the website is done and the
"Coming soon" can go away ;-)
I''ve now got Pavel''s rough draft files and will use it as the
base of the new static page.

Luis...get me the hosting and access info (off mailing list) and I''ll
take it from there as well as tweak it as needed.

> Please, be open and sincere about it, I''m open to comments or
suggestions to change what I''m doing wrong.

While I think some of Antonio''s frustrations are valid, I also think we
should take a step back before we run off and do things, and think a bit more
about makes the most sense for us to do given our limited resources.
>From my perspective, one of the most important things to have in place
before you start your PR, or Technical Marketing, or Evangelizing (or whatever
you feel comfortable calling it) efforts is to really have nailed down a great
"foundation" for your project.
This doesn''t mean it has to be "perfect".  It simply means it
has to be "great enough" and doable with our current resourcing.

Nothing ruins good opportunities quicker creating a ton of cool buzz and
excitement for your project, and then completely underwhelming people when they
check it out by not having your ducks in a row.

Quite frankly, we only have so many silver bullets to take advantage of the
attention we drum up.

You never want to waste good buzz you''ve created on ruby-talk (and
other places) by having people come to your project and go "WTF!?  This is
lame. It''s even close to being ready to look at.  I''m outa
here"  We need to ensure the OCI project site leaves people with a
"good enough" first impression that they don''t run away in
frustration.

And the great thing is that much of the current OCI work is great. 
It''s not lame at all.  Quite the opposite in fact.  We''ve got:

* Solid 1.8.6 and 1.9.1 MinGW-based preview builds
* A DevKit that easily enables folks to build native gems
* Nice core and standard lib documentation in the form of CHM''s and
Gordon spending a bunch of his valuable time to update and maintain these
* A cool rake-compiler tool to help with building native gems
* Interest from a web developer in helping to create a great new web site.
* The beginnings of a value-add developer focused site at GitHub.
* And, most importantly, some knowledgeable people who are passionate about
getting a great Ruby experience on Windows.

While we''ve got all these great pieces, we''ve yet been able to
combine them into a solid, coherent foundation upon which we can build.

It''s this building of the foundation I''m advocating for as a
next step.  And I don''t think it needs to take forever if we can focus
on pragmatism rather than perfectionism.

To quickly build this foundation, I strongly believe we need to focus on the
following three themes:

1) Create a compelling project site (in phases and utilizing as much existing
content).
2) Push out the next OCI by focusing and resourcing the key TODO''s
3) Make it easy for people to contribute and provide feedback

Once we feel these three are solid, I think the fun begins and we can talk
creative ways to drum up interest!


This email is already much longer than what I wanted.  However, if we think the
"Three Themes" are on track, let''s get 3 separate email
chains going (one for each topic), hammer out the details, and get people
signing up to do the specific tasks.

I''ll start threads for (1) and (3) either later today or tomorrow. 
Who''s going to pick up #2?

Thoughts?  Any other key themes we need to address to nail down the foundation?

Jon