rsync - Jul 2015 - Fwd: rsync --link-dest and --files-from lead by a "change list" from some file system audit tool (Was: Re: cut-off time for rsync ?)

On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 15:40:51 +0100, Simon Hobson wrote:
> The think here is that you are into "backup" tools rather than
the
> general purpose tool that rsync is intended to be.
Yes, that is true.  Rsync serves so well as a core component to backup, I 
can be blind about "something other than rsync".

I'll look at the tools you suggest.  However, you've made be a little 
apprehensive about storebackup.  I like the lack of a need for a "restore 
tool".  This permits all the standard UNIX tools to be applied to 
whatever I might want to do over the backup, which is often *very* 
convenient.

On the other hand, I do confess that I am sometimes miffed at the waste 
involved in a small change to a very large file.  Rsync is smart about 
moving minimal data, but it still stores an entire new copy of the file.

What's needed is a file system that can do what hard links do, but at the 
file page level.  I imagine that this would work using the same Copy On 
Write logic used in managing memory pages after a fork().

	- Andrew

Andrew Gideon <c182driver1 at gideon.org> wrote:
> However, you've made be a little 
> apprehensive about storebackup.  I like the lack of a need for a
"restore
> tool".  This permits all the standard UNIX tools to be applied to 
> whatever I might want to do over the backup, which is often *very* 
> convenient.
Well if you don't use the file splitting and compression options, you can
still do that with storebackup - just be aware that some files may have
different timestamps (but not contents) to the original. Specifically, consider
this sequence :
- Create a file, perform a backup
- touch the file to change it's modification timestamp, perform another
backup
rsync will (I think) see the new file with different timestamp and create a new
file rather than lining to the old one.
storebackup will link the files )so taking (almost) zero extra space - but the
second backup will show the file with the timestamp from the first file. If you
just "cp -p" the file then it'll have the earlier timestamp, if
you restore it with the storebackup tools then it'll come out with the later
timestamp.
> On the other hand, I do confess that I am sometimes miffed at the waste 
> involved in a small change to a very large file.  Rsync is smart about 
> moving minimal data, but it still stores an entire new copy of the file.
I'm not sure as I've not used it, but storebackup has the option of
splitting large files (threshold user definable). You'd need to look and see
if it compares file parts (hard-lining unchanged parts) or the whole file
(creates all new parts).
> What's needed is a file system that can do what hard links do, but at
the
> file page level.  I imagine that this would work using the same Copy On 
> Write logic used in managing memory pages after a fork().
Well some (all ?) enterprise grade storage boxes support de-dup - usually at the
block level. So it does exist, at a price !

On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Simon Hobson <linux at thehobsons.co.uk>
wrote:
> > What's needed is a file system that can do what hard links do, but
at the
> > file page level.  I imagine that this would work using the same Copy
On
> > Write logic used in managing memory pages after a fork().
>
> Well some (all ?) enterprise grade storage boxes support de-dup - usually
> at the block level. So it does exist, at a price !
>

zfs is free and has de-dup. It takes more RAM to support it well,  but not
prohibitively so unless your data is more than a few TB. As with any dedup
solution, performance does take a hit and its often not worth it unless you
have a lot of duplication in the data.

Selva
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On Mon 13 Jul 2015, Andrew Gideon wrote:
> 
> On the other hand, I do confess that I am sometimes miffed at the waste 
> involved in a small change to a very large file.  Rsync is smart about 
> moving minimal data, but it still stores an entire new copy of the file.
> 
> What's needed is a file system that can do what hard links do, but at
the
> file page level.  I imagine that this would work using the same Copy On 
> Write logic used in managing memory pages after a fork().
btrfs has support for this: you make a backup, then create a btrfs
snapshot of the filesystem (or directory), then the next time you make a
new backup with rsync, use --inplace so that just changed parts of the
file are written to the same blocks and btrfs will take care of the
copy-on-write part.


Paul

And what's performance like? I've heard lots of COW systems performance
drops through the floor when there's many snapshots.

/kc


On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 08:59:25AM +0200, Paul Slootman said:
  >On Mon 13 Jul 2015, Andrew Gideon wrote:
  >> 
  >> On the other hand, I do confess that I am sometimes miffed at the
waste
  >> involved in a small change to a very large file.  Rsync is smart
about
  >> moving minimal data, but it still stores an entire new copy of the
file.
  >> 
  >> What's needed is a file system that can do what hard links do,
but at the
  >> file page level.  I imagine that this would work using the same Copy
On
  >> Write logic used in managing memory pages after a fork().
  >
  >btrfs has support for this: you make a backup, then create a btrfs
  >snapshot of the filesystem (or directory), then the next time you make a
  >new backup with rsync, use --inplace so that just changed parts of the
  >file are written to the same blocks and btrfs will take care of the
  >copy-on-write part.
  >
  >
  >Paul
  >
  >-- 
  >Please use reply-all for most replies to avoid omitting the mailing list.
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-- 
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Canada
Heavy Computing - Clued bandwidth, colocation and managed linux VPS @151 Front
St. W.

On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 17:38:35 -0400, Selva Nair wrote:
> As with any dedup solution, performance does take a hit and its often
> not worth it unless you have a lot of duplication in the data.
This is so only in some volumes in our case, but it appears that zfs 
permits this to be enabled/disabled on a per-volume basis.  That would 
work for us.

Is there a way to save cycles by offering zfs a hint as to where a 
previous copy of a file's blocks may be found?

	- Andrew

On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 08:59:25 +0200, Paul Slootman wrote:
> btrfs has support for this: you make a backup, then create a btrfs
> snapshot of the filesystem (or directory), then the next time you make a
> new backup with rsync, use --inplace so that just changed parts of the
> file are written to the same blocks and btrfs will take care of the
> copy-on-write part.
That's interesting.  I'd considered doing something similar with LVM 
snapshots.  I chose not to do so because of a particular failure mode: if 
the space allocated to a snapshot filled (as a result of changes to the 
"live" data), the snapshot would fail.  For my purposes, I'd want
the new
write to fail instead.  Destroying snapshots holding backup data didn't 
seem a reasonable choice.

How does btrfs deal with such issues?

	- Andrew