rspec users - Sep 2008 - What does a skilled BDD-/RSpec-er want in a job?

Hi everyone,

Hope this is not too OT, but I know I will get a good answer here...

I will be soon* helping one of my clients write a job spec for an  
agile software developer, to work on a Ruby web app using RSpec.  I''d  
just like to know something from experienced BDDers - what in a job  
spec would attract your attention?  There''s obviously nothing I can do
about pay, working conditions etc (although both are pretty good, I  
have to say - I''d certainly like the job if I didn''t want to
work for
myself), so it''s more the technical appeal of the job.

I''m guessing most people would be put off by, for example:
Programmer wanted to write web site.  Must have 3 years'' experience in
Rails, SQL Server and CVS.  We are agile so you must deliver 3 pages  
of the project spec every iteration.  We do pair programming, but if  
you need a machine of your own, we have some spare Windows 95 boxes in  
the cupboard.

But what things make a job appealing?  What technologies, skills,  
practices and methodologies make for a good BDD role?

Thanks
Ashley


* Tomorrow actually, I guess I had the inspiration to ask on this list  
a bit late


-- 
http://www.patchspace.co.uk/
http://aviewfromafar.net/

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Ashley Moran
<ashley.moran at patchspace.co.uk>wrote:
>
> But what things make a job appealing?  What technologies, skills, practices
> and methodologies make for a good BDD role?
>
Just mentioning BDD is good. It''s easily searched for, and if you
indicate
that it''s not just a buzzword to you, I''d imagine that would
be enough to
lure some good resumes. Most shops don''t even have a clue what BDD/TDD
are.

///ark
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RSpec is a tool, it should be in face *minimally* (yes, this is important!)
  A job description that mentioned RSpec explicitly would signal a red flag
to me.

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 4:25 PM, Mark Wilden <mark at mwilden.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Ashley Moran <
> ashley.moran at patchspace.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> But what things make a job appealing?  What technologies, skills,
>> practices and methodologies make for a good BDD role?
>>
>
> Just mentioning BDD is good. It''s easily searched for, and if you
indicate
> that it''s not just a buzzword to you, I''d imagine that
would be enough to
> lure some good resumes. Most shops don''t even have a clue what
BDD/TDD are.
>
> ///ark
>
> _______________________________________________
> rspec-users mailing list
> rspec-users at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
>
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On Sep 7, 2008, at 7:21 PM, Bryan Liles wrote:
> RSpec is a tool, it should be in face *minimally* (yes, this is  
> important!)   A job description that mentioned RSpec explicitly  
> would signal a red flag to me.
Not at all!  A mention of RSpec would be a great thing.  In fact, it''s
one of the things that attracted me to my current job at EastMedia.  
They knew I had contributed patches to the framework, and this helped  
me to get hired.  Being there, I''ve not only had plenty of freedom to  
work on RSpec, but also on Stories, and to pair with Bryan, the  
creator of webrat.

>
> But what things make a job appealing?  What technologies, skills,  
> practices and methodologies make for a good BDD role?

Any sort of mention of testing or BDD would be attractive to a  
BDD''er.  Mentioning RSpec would in fact mean that the job is forward  
thinking - that they aren''t bogged down with legacy code (i.e.  
Test::Unit) and legacy thinking.

I was interested in the job at EM because it was obvious that they  
would allow me to use the tools that made *me* most productive, and  
that this toolset could change and adapt to my workflow.

Scott

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Bryan Liles <bryan at osesm.com> wrote:
> RSpec is a tool, it should be in face *minimally* (yes, this is important!)
>   A job description that mentioned RSpec explicitly would signal a red flag
> to me.
>
BDD, Ruby on Rails, and OOP are just tools, too. They are each means to an
end (and they''re not the only means, either). But tools take time to
learn,
and can take a lot of time to learn to use well. I don''t think lack of
RSpec
experience should disqualify someone from a job (and a good thing, too, or I
wouldn''t be working where I am). But it could be a plus from the
employer''s
perspective, just as it could be a plus from the candidate''s.

///ark
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"Bryan Liles" <bryan at osesm.com> writes:
> RSpec is a tool, it should be in face *minimally* (yes, this is important!)
A
> job description that mentioned RSpec explicitly would signal a red flag to
me.
I''m with Scott & Mark on this one.  Tools matter, and good
developers
usually have strong opinions on them.  The key is strong, not stubborn -
and remembering that they''re just tools allows us to improve on them
and
seek out better alternatives.

Personally, I''ve talked with potential employers that know about my
RSpec involvement, and say, "we use Test::Unit here, would that be a
problem for you?"  And my answer is, "Yes, unless you want me to help
move everything to RSpec."  Of course I could do that job...but with all
the other (sane :) employers who "let" me use RSpec, why bother?

btw, a job ad that would catch my eye would be one that lists the tools you
use, what open source contributions you''ve made to them, and what other
open source stuff you''ve done in the form of plugins, mini apps,
whatever.

Pat

On Sep 08, 2008, at 1:09 am, Pat Maddox wrote:
> btw, a job ad that would catch my eye would be one that lists the  
> tools you
> use, what open source contributions you''ve made to them, and what
> other
> open source stuff you''ve done in the form of plugins, mini apps,
> whatever.


Hi Pat, Mark, Scott, Bryan

Thanks very much for the feedback.  I think based on your comments we  
should include the technologies, but make it clear they are just what  
we use, and that similar skills in say xUnit tools, or with Java/ 
Python/etc are equally valid.  Don''t know how long it will take to get
the job advertised, hopefully within a month or so though.

Cheers
Ashley

-- 
http://www.patchspace.co.uk/
http://aviewfromafar.net/

I know a while back Google used to request python skills when they were
hiring java folks. They didn''t actually need python to do their job -
it
just meant they attracted the kind of developers who venture outside their
regular programming world, which is what they were really after. Mind you
they ended up hiring Guido van Rossum, so you have to be a bit careful :)

Mentioning the technologies is useful, but if you put the emphasis on your
culture (co-located, collaborative, valuing open source - both using and
contributing, etc.) you may find you attract people who also value culture
over specific technical skills. And any job ad that attracts Pat Maddox -
well that would be a pretty successful job ad in my opinion.*

Cheers,
Dan

* because it would mean he was working somewhere else ;-)


2008/9/8 Ashley Moran <ashley.moran at patchspace.co.uk>
>
> On Sep 08, 2008, at 1:09 am, Pat Maddox wrote:
>
>  btw, a job ad that would catch my eye would be one that lists the tools
>> you
>> use, what open source contributions you''ve made to them, and
what other
>> open source stuff you''ve done in the form of plugins, mini
apps,
>> whatever.
>>
>
>
>
> Hi Pat, Mark, Scott, Bryan
>
> Thanks very much for the feedback.  I think based on your comments we
> should include the technologies, but make it clear they are just what we
> use, and that similar skills in say xUnit tools, or with Java/Python/etc
are
> equally valid.  Don''t know how long it will take to get the job
advertised,
> hopefully within a month or so though.
>
> Cheers
> Ashley
>
> --
> http://www.patchspace.co.uk/
> http://aviewfromafar.net/
>
> _______________________________________________
> rspec-users mailing list
> rspec-users at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
>
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On 9 Sep 2008, at 13:28, Dan North wrote:
> I know a while back Google used to request python skills when they  
> were hiring java folks. They didn''t actually need python to do
their
> job - it just meant they attracted the kind of developers who  
> venture outside their regular programming world, which is what they  
> were really after. Mind you they ended up hiring Guido van Rossum,  
> so you have to be a bit careful :)
Good point!  Might try and sneak something new and shiny in there.  Do  
you think if we mention RSpec + Stories on the job spec we might hire  
the whole RSpec core team by accident?

> Mentioning the technologies is useful, but if you put the emphasis  
> on your culture (co-located, collaborative, valuing open source -  
> both using and contributing, etc.) you may find you attract people  
> who also value culture over specific technical skills.
Very good point, hadn''t looked at it that way.  Collaborative is very  
important.  One thing I love about stories is they give a concrete way  
to bridge the gap between the customer and code.  I noticed a few  
weeks back that there''s a continuum:

Customer -> Story Session -> Story -> Spec -> Code
   |                                            |
    <------------- Demo Meeting <---------------

And it''s no longer clear where the fuzzy business stuff stops and the  
geeky technical stuff starts.  Dunno how you screen for that though,  
short making a real story writing session part of the interview process.

> And any job ad that attracts Pat Maddox - well that would be a  
> pretty successful job ad in my opinion.*
This may require something more specific on the job description.   
Pat''s favourite brand of coffee is? :)

Ashley

-- 
http://www.patchspace.co.uk/
http://aviewfromafar.net/

On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 8:34 AM, Ashley Moran
<ashley.moran at patchspace.co.uk> wrote:
> On 9 Sep 2008, at 13:28, Dan North wrote:
>
>> I know a while back Google used to request python skills when they were
>> hiring java folks. They didn''t actually need python to do
their job - it
>> just meant they attracted the kind of developers who venture outside
their
>> regular programming world, which is what they were really after. Mind
you
>> they ended up hiring Guido van Rossum, so you have to be a bit careful
:)
>
> Good point!  Might try and sneak something new and shiny in there.  Do you
> think if we mention RSpec + Stories on the job spec we might hire the whole
> RSpec core team by accident?
Sorry man, to get us you''re going to have to talk about vegetables and
Features.
>> Mentioning the technologies is useful, but if you put the emphasis on
your
>> culture (co-located, collaborative, valuing open source - both using
and
>> contributing, etc.) you may find you attract people who also value
culture
>> over specific technical skills.
>
> Very good point, hadn''t looked at it that way.  Collaborative is
very
> important.  One thing I love about stories is they give a concrete way to
> bridge the gap between the customer and code.  I noticed a few weeks back
> that there''s a continuum:
>
> Customer -> Story Session -> Story -> Spec -> Code
>  |                                            |
>   <------------- Demo Meeting <---------------
>
> And it''s no longer clear where the fuzzy business stuff stops and
the geeky
> technical stuff starts.  Dunno how you screen for that though, short making
> a real story writing session part of the interview process.
Why not? I''ve been asked to submit code before job interviews and even
pair during them. Taught me as much about potential employers as it
did them about me.
>> And any job ad that attracts Pat Maddox - well that would be a pretty
>> successful job ad in my opinion.*
>
> This may require something more specific on the job description. 
Pat''s
> favourite brand of coffee is? :)
I''d stick to the previously established theme here - "we tend to
drink
a nice dark Tanzania coffee here, but if you tend towards Sumatra
instead, that''s OK. Just no Starbucks on the premises, please."

Cheers,
David
>
> Ashley

On Sep 09, 2008, at 3:00 pm, David Chelimsky wrote:
> Sorry man, to get us you''re going to have to talk about vegetables
> and Features.
Actually I''m going to be giving a short talk on BDD story/feature  
writing + Cucumber + RSpec + Celerity at my next local monthly mini- 
conference/geek beer-swilling night*.  To the best of my limited  
ability anyway.

That''s got TWO vegetables in it.  Do I get bonus recruitment points???

> Why not? I''ve been asked to submit code before job interviews and
even
> pair during them. Taught me as much about potential employers as it
> did them about me.
When I wrote it, I knew it might be just crazy enough to work...

I think a day spent story writing with a customer in the morning, and  
pairing in the afternoon, could give a very good indication of how  
well someone will work.  But I bet it''d be very stressful for the  
candidates.

> I''d stick to the previously established theme here - "we tend
to drink
> a nice dark Tanzania coffee here, but if you tend towards Sumatra
> instead, that''s OK. Just no Starbucks on the premises,
please."
Hmmm, I suspect I may have to upgrade from Tesco decaf to stand any  
chance of hiring a developer...

Ashley


* If anyone here is in the Sheffield (UK) area and wants to come along  
and hurl abuse, you are more than welcome:
http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/869612


-- 
http://www.patchspace.co.uk/
http://aviewfromafar.net/