Rails spinoffs - Apr 2007 - GET and POST aren't enough

I started toying with Prototype today. It''s been sort of a kid in the
candy store, "can I really do that? Woah!" fun afternoon. The $()
operator, the sublime syntax for Ajax.Request, and the promise of so
much more I haven''t tried yet.

I guess that''s what frustrates me so much about intentionally sending
the wrong type of HTTP request instead of a DELETE or a PUT. A POST is
a POST, and not a DELETE, and not a PUT. Hiding the intended message
type violates the REST principle of being a self-descriptive message
at the protocol level. It also blocks the consumption of web services
using POST/GET/PUT/DELETE to implement CRUD methods.

Has anyone forked Prototype to fix this?


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I was under the impression that you could use DELETE and PUT with 
prototype.  In fact, the API indicates you can here: 
http://prototypejs.org/api/ajax/options (just look for the method 
option).  That being said, I personally haven''t found the need for them
but if you need them they are there.

 -- Dash --

footballsoccerpainting-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org
wrote:
> I started toying with Prototype today. It''s been sort of a kid in
the
> candy store, "can I really do that? Woah!" fun afternoon. The $()
> operator, the sublime syntax for Ajax.Request, and the promise of so
> much more I haven''t tried yet.
>
> I guess that''s what frustrates me so much about intentionally
sending
> the wrong type of HTTP request instead of a DELETE or a PUT. A POST is
> a POST, and not a DELETE, and not a PUT. Hiding the intended message
> type violates the REST principle of being a self-descriptive message
> at the protocol level. It also blocks the consumption of web services
> using POST/GET/PUT/DELETE to implement CRUD methods.
>
> Has anyone forked Prototype to fix this?
>
>
> >
>
>   
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There''s been a bit of a discussion about it, if you care to check the  
archives.

You''re right, but Safari doesn''t recognize non GET/POST
methods. It''s
been fixed in WebKit, but hasn''t been distributed by Apple as an  
update to Safari. Rails (which I don''t use--yet) does the translation  
automatically, so no harm done there.

There is a ticket/patch in Trac to allow to programmer the option of  
forcing a particular method. I don''t know what the plans are for it,  
but I know the devs are aware of it.
http://dev.rubyonrails.org/ticket/6595


TAG

On Apr 9, 2007, at 2:50 PM,
footballsoccerpainting-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org wrote:
>
> I started toying with Prototype today. It''s been sort of a kid in
the
> candy store, "can I really do that? Woah!" fun afternoon. The $()
> operator, the sublime syntax for Ajax.Request, and the promise of so
> much more I haven''t tried yet.
>
> I guess that''s what frustrates me so much about intentionally
sending
> the wrong type of HTTP request instead of a DELETE or a PUT. A POST is
> a POST, and not a DELETE, and not a PUT. Hiding the intended message
> type violates the REST principle of being a self-descriptive message
> at the protocol level. It also blocks the consumption of web services
> using POST/GET/PUT/DELETE to implement CRUD methods.
>
> Has anyone forked Prototype to fix this?
>
>
> >

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footballsoccerpainting-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org a écrit
:
> I guess that''s what frustrates me so much about intentionally
sending
> the wrong type of HTTP request instead of a DELETE or a PUT. A POST is
That''s because most browsers WILL NOT support other HTTP verbs
natively.
 The upcoming W3C spec mandates support for other verbs (most notably
PUT and DELETE), but most browsers follow HTML guidelines, which do not
support anything else than PUT or DELETE.

So Prototype relies on a trick for now, which is implemented already on
the server side by RoR, and can easily be supported with very little
custom code on any other platform (it''s only a question of looking for
the _method parameter in the POST request, after all).

As soon as there is widespread support for other HTTP verbs in XHR,
Prototype will use it.

-- 
Christophe Porteneuve a.k.a. TDD
"[They] did not know it was impossible, so they did it." --Mark Twain
Email: tdd-x+CfDp/qHev2eFz/2MeuCQ@public.gmane.org

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Prototype doesn''t actually use those methods--it uses POST (if not  
POST or GET), and passes the requested method in a parameter called  
''_method''.

Or, to quote directly from the docs you linked:
"As a Ruby On Rails special, Prototype also reacts to other verbs  
(such as ''put'' and ''delete'' by actually
using ''post'' and putting an
extra ''_method'' parameter with the originally requested method
in
there."



TAG

On Apr 9, 2007, at 2:55 PM, David Dashifen Kees wrote:
>
> I was under the impression that you could use DELETE and PUT with
> prototype.  In fact, the API indicates you can here:
> http://prototypejs.org/api/ajax/options (just look for the method
> option).  That being said, I personally haven''t found the need for
> them
> but if you need them they are there.
>
>  -- Dash --
>
> footballsoccerpainting-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org wrote:
>> I started toying with Prototype today. It''s been sort of a kid
in the
>> candy store, "can I really do that? Woah!" fun afternoon. The
$()
>> operator, the sublime syntax for Ajax.Request, and the promise of so
>> much more I haven''t tried yet.
>>
>> I guess that''s what frustrates me so much about intentionally
sending
>> the wrong type of HTTP request instead of a DELETE or a PUT. A  
>> POST is
>> a POST, and not a DELETE, and not a PUT. Hiding the intended message
>> type violates the REST principle of being a self-descriptive message
>> at the protocol level. It also blocks the consumption of web services
>> using POST/GET/PUT/DELETE to implement CRUD methods.
>>
>> Has anyone forked Prototype to fix this?
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> >

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Like I said, I don''t know enough about PUT or DELETE, so what the exact
difference is between using POST and then telling the server what it 
tried to use so that the server can handle things otherwise or actually 
just using the verb escapes me.  I just wanted to make sure that the 
original poster had noticed that Prototype provided an option if it 
works for his needs.

Speaking of which, anyone got a good document online for exactly what 
PUT or DELETE do?  I know, I could google it, but asking for a 
recommendation always seems to generate a solid lead from the get go 
rather than having to sift through a hojillion bad links or worse 
explanations before finding some gold.

 -- Dash --

Tom Gregory wrote:
> Prototype doesn''t actually use those methods--it uses POST (if not
> POST or GET), and passes the requested method in a parameter called  
> ''_method''.
>
> Or, to quote directly from the docs you linked:
> "As a Ruby On Rails special, Prototype also reacts to other verbs  
> (such as ''put'' and ''delete'' by actually
using ''post'' and putting an
> extra ''_method'' parameter with the originally requested
method in
> there."
>
>
>
> TAG
>
> On Apr 9, 2007, at 2:55 PM, David Dashifen Kees wrote:
>
>   
>> I was under the impression that you could use DELETE and PUT with
>> prototype.  In fact, the API indicates you can here:
>> http://prototypejs.org/api/ajax/options (just look for the method
>> option).  That being said, I personally haven''t found the need
for
>> them
>> but if you need them they are there.
>>
>>  -- Dash --
>>
>> footballsoccerpainting-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org wrote:
>>     
>>> I started toying with Prototype today. It''s been sort of a
kid in the
>>> candy store, "can I really do that? Woah!" fun afternoon.
The $()
>>> operator, the sublime syntax for Ajax.Request, and the promise of
so
>>> much more I haven''t tried yet.
>>>
>>> I guess that''s what frustrates me so much about
intentionally sending
>>> the wrong type of HTTP request instead of a DELETE or a PUT. A  
>>> POST is
>>> a POST, and not a DELETE, and not a PUT. Hiding the intended
message
>>> type violates the REST principle of being a self-descriptive
message
>>> at the protocol level. It also blocks the consumption of web
services
>>> using POST/GET/PUT/DELETE to implement CRUD methods.
>>>
>>> Has anyone forked Prototype to fix this?
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>>       
>
>
> >
>
>   
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Firefox 2 supports PUT & DELETE as XHR methods. It sounds like the
next version of Safari will too. I can''t test IE on my Mac, but this
page would tell me how good the XHR implementation is -- WARNING the
page will display many JS alerts!

http://www.mnot.net/javascript/xmlhttprequest/

I''m looking forward to an official release of Prototype with this
fixed. The minor problems it causes with HTTP are mostly moot (caches
won''t inspect the query string for the intended req type -- but
caching PUT and DELETE seems bad). It''s much worse to be incompatible
with web services which use PUT & DELETE.

Thank you for the feedback!


On Apr 9, 5:09 pm, Christophe Porteneuve
<t...-x+CfDp/qHev2eFz/2MeuCQ@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> footballsoccerpaint...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org a écrit :
>
> > I guess that''s what frustrates me so much about intentionally
sending
> > the wrong type of HTTP request instead of a DELETE or a PUT. A POST is
>
> That''s because most browsers WILL NOT support other HTTP verbs
natively.
>  The upcoming W3C spec mandates support for other verbs (most notably
> PUT and DELETE), but most browsers follow HTML guidelines, which do not
> support anything else than PUT or DELETE.
>
> So Prototype relies on a trick for now, which is implemented already on
> the server side by RoR, and can easily be supported with very little
> custom code on any other platform (it''s only a question of looking
for
> the _method parameter in the POST request, after all).
>
> As soon as there is widespread support for other HTTP verbs in XHR,
> Prototype will use it.
>
> --
> Christophe Porteneuve a.k.a. TDD
> "[They] did not know it was impossible, so they did it." --Mark
Twain
> Email: t...-x+CfDp/qHev2eFz/2MeuCQ@public.gmane.org

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