On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:54:01 +1100 Jim Lemon <drjimlemon at gmail.com> wrote:> Hi Elaine, > There seems to be a popular contest to discover offence everywhere. I > don't think that it does anything against racism, sexism or > antidisestablishmentarianism. Words are plucked from our vast lexicon > to comfort or insult our fellows depending upon the intent of the > user. It is the intent that matters, not the poor word. Chasing the > words wastes your time, blames those who use the words harmlessly, > and gives the real offender time to find another epithet.Jim: This is superbly expressed. I wish that I could have said that! Your posting should go down in the annals of brilliant rhetoric, alongside Dr. Johnson's "Letter to Lord Chesterfield". cheers, Rolf -- Honorary Research Fellow Department of Statistics University of Auckland Phone: +64-9-373-7599 ext. 88276
Thanks, Rolf, I never saw the Letter to Chesterfield myself. Though I admit I run more to Swift's "A Modest Proposal" but then if you really want to get into being impolitic that's a stellar example! Mitch On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 5:46 PM Rolf Turner <r.turner at auckland.ac.nz> wrote:> > On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:54:01 +1100 > Jim Lemon <drjimlemon at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi Elaine, > > There seems to be a popular contest to discover offence everywhere. I > > don't think that it does anything against racism, sexism or > > antidisestablishmentarianism. Words are plucked from our vast lexicon > > to comfort or insult our fellows depending upon the intent of the > > user. It is the intent that matters, not the poor word. Chasing the > > words wastes your time, blames those who use the words harmlessly, > > and gives the real offender time to find another epithet. > > Jim: This is superbly expressed. I wish that I could have said > that! Your posting should go down in the annals of brilliant rhetoric, > alongside Dr. Johnson's "Letter to Lord Chesterfield". > > cheers, > > Rolf > > -- > Honorary Research Fellow > Department of Statistics > University of Auckland > Phone: +64-9-373-7599 ext. 88276 > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide > http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. >[[alternative HTML version deleted]]
> On Nov 16, 2020, at 5:46 PM, Rolf Turner <r.turner at auckland.ac.nz> wrote: > > On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:54:01 +1100 > Jim Lemon <drjimlemon at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Elaine, >> There seems to be a popular contest to discover offence everywhere. I >> don't think that it does anything against racism, sexism or >> antidisestablishmentarianism. Words are plucked from our vast lexicon >> to comfort or insult our fellows depending upon the intent of the >> user. It is the intent that matters, not the poor word. Chasing the >> words wastes your time, blames those who use the words harmlessly, >> and gives the real offender time to find another epithet. > > Jim: This is superbly expressed. I wish that I could have said > that! Your posting should go down in the annals of brilliant rhetoric, > alongside Dr. Johnson's "Letter to Lord Chesterfield". > > cheers, > > RolfYou know, I wouldn?t have continued this thread (which has now wandered off topic from the original somewhat-more-technical question), but I feel now like it?s necessary to do so (and only fair, if anyone is considering moderating me after letting these posts by): That is a view commonly held by white people, and even more overwhelmingly by white men. Our field is already not as diverse as it should be for a variety of reasons, and this ?pretending no one else on earth exists? kind of stuff is at least some part of the reason. The question at issue here aside, white men complaining about people finding racism or sexism everywhere they look doesn?t pass the sniff test. Most or all of these things that people are reporting as offensive are being reported by people you?re clearly not listening to. Further, impact is what matters. If I step on your foot, I apologize, regardless of whether or not it was intentional, because it?s the right thing to do. If someone tells you ?that thing you?re saying is offensive or is hurting me? and you say ?I didn?t mean it,? and then keep right on doing it, what does it say to the person on the receiving end of it? All anyone that is being ?blamed,? as you put it, is being asked to do is to try to do better next time. -- #BlackLivesMatter ____ || \\UTGERS, |---------------------------*O*--------------------------- ||_// the State | Ryan Novosielski - novosirj at rutgers.edu || \\ University | Sr. Technologist - 973/972.0922 (2x0922) ~*~ RBHS Campus || \\ of NJ | Office of Advanced Research Computing - MSB C630, Newark `'
... and we are off topic and I'm not sure I would vote for changing the name of the colour but at the same time I have to endorse that as a brilliant, brilliant summary of the issues which ought to be a fortune candidate. I have cc'd in the noble Achim, maintainer of the cookies package as I seem to remember that's the correct way to make a formal nomination. Very best all, Chris ----- Original Message -----> From: "Ryan Novosielski" <novosirj at rutgers.edu> > To: "r-help mailing list" <r-help at r-project.org> > Cc: "Lainey Gallenberg" <laineygallenberg at gmail.com> > Sent: Tuesday, 17 November, 2020 16:39:38 > Subject: Re: [R] Inappropriate color name>> On Nov 16, 2020, at 5:46 PM, Rolf Turner <r.turner at auckland.ac.nz> wrote: >> >> On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:54:01 +1100 >> Jim Lemon <drjimlemon at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Elaine, >>> There seems to be a popular contest to discover offence everywhere. I >>> don't think that it does anything against racism, sexism or >>> antidisestablishmentarianism. Words are plucked from our vast lexicon >>> to comfort or insult our fellows depending upon the intent of the >>> user. It is the intent that matters, not the poor word. Chasing the >>> words wastes your time, blames those who use the words harmlessly, >>> and gives the real offender time to find another epithet. >> >> Jim: This is superbly expressed. I wish that I could have said >> that! Your posting should go down in the annals of brilliant rhetoric, >> alongside Dr. Johnson's "Letter to Lord Chesterfield". >> >> cheers, >> >> Rolf > > You know, I wouldn?t have continued this thread (which has now wandered off > topic from the original somewhat-more-technical question), but I feel now like > it?s necessary to do so (and only fair, if anyone is considering moderating me > after letting these posts by): > > That is a view commonly held by white people, and even more overwhelmingly by > white men. Our field is already not as diverse as it should be for a variety of > reasons, and this ?pretending no one else on earth exists? kind of stuff is at > least some part of the reason. The question at issue here aside, white men > complaining about people finding racism or sexism everywhere they look doesn?t > pass the sniff test. Most or all of these things that people are reporting as > offensive are being reported by people you?re clearly not listening to. > > Further, impact is what matters. If I step on your foot, I apologize, regardless > of whether or not it was intentional, because it?s the right thing to do. If > someone tells you ?that thing you?re saying is offensive or is hurting me? and > you say ?I didn?t mean it,? and then keep right on doing it, what does it say > to the person on the receiving end of it? All anyone that is being ?blamed,? as > you put it, is being asked to do is to try to do better next time. > > -- > #BlackLivesMatter > ____ >|| \\UTGERS, |---------------------------*O*--------------------------- >||_// the State | Ryan Novosielski - novosirj at rutgers.edu >|| \\ University | Sr. Technologist - 973/972.0922 (2x0922) ~*~ RBHS Campus >|| \\ of NJ | Office of Advanced Research Computing - MSB C630, Newark > `' > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.-- Small contribution in our coronavirus rigours: https://www.coresystemtrust.org.uk/home/free-options-to-replace-paper-core-forms-during-the-coronavirus-pandemic/ Chris Evans <chris at psyctc.org> Visiting Professor, University of Sheffield <chris.evans at sheffield.ac.uk> I do some consultation work for the University of Roehampton <chris.evans at roehampton.ac.uk> and other places but <chris at psyctc.org> remains my main Email address. I have a work web site at: https://www.psyctc.org/psyctc/ and a site I manage for CORE and CORE system trust at: http://www.coresystemtrust.org.uk/ I have "semigrated" to France, see: https://www.psyctc.org/pelerinage2016/semigrating-to-france/ https://www.psyctc.org/pelerinage2016/register-to-get-updates-from-pelerinage2016/ If you want an Emeeting, I am trying to keep them to Thursdays and my diary is at: https://www.psyctc.org/pelerinage2016/ceworkdiary/ Beware: French time, generally an hour ahead of UK.
I agree with, support, and appreciate this message. Thank you Ryan for the courage to write this, and Lainey for your courage to persist with your question. -----Original Message----- From: R-help <r-help-bounces at r-project.org> On Behalf Of Ryan Novosielski Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 9:40 AM To: r-help mailing list <r-help at r-project.org> Cc: Lainey Gallenberg <laineygallenberg at gmail.com> Subject: Re: [R] Inappropriate color name *** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] <a href="https://www.northland.edu/about/external-email">What does this mean?</a> ***> On Nov 16, 2020, at 5:46 PM, Rolf Turner <r.turner at auckland.ac.nz> wrote: > > On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:54:01 +1100 > Jim Lemon <drjimlemon at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Elaine, >> There seems to be a popular contest to discover offence everywhere. I >> don't think that it does anything against racism, sexism or >> antidisestablishmentarianism. Words are plucked from our vast lexicon >> to comfort or insult our fellows depending upon the intent of the >> user. It is the intent that matters, not the poor word. Chasing the >> words wastes your time, blames those who use the words harmlessly, >> and gives the real offender time to find another epithet. > > Jim: This is superbly expressed. I wish that I could have said that! > Your posting should go down in the annals of brilliant rhetoric, > alongside Dr. Johnson's "Letter to Lord Chesterfield". > > cheers, > > RolfYou know, I wouldn?t have continued this thread (which has now wandered off topic from the original somewhat-more-technical question), but I feel now like it?s necessary to do so (and only fair, if anyone is considering moderating me after letting these posts by): That is a view commonly held by white people, and even more overwhelmingly by white men. Our field is already not as diverse as it should be for a variety of reasons, and this ?pretending no one else on earth exists? kind of stuff is at least some part of the reason. The question at issue here aside, white men complaining about people finding racism or sexism everywhere they look doesn?t pass the sniff test. Most or all of these things that people are reporting as offensive are being reported by people you?re clearly not listening to. Further, impact is what matters. If I step on your foot, I apologize, regardless of whether or not it was intentional, because it?s the right thing to do. If someone tells you ?that thing you?re saying is offensive or is hurting me? and you say ?I didn?t mean it,? and then keep right on doing it, what does it say to the person on the receiving end of it? All anyone that is being ?blamed,? as you put it, is being asked to do is to try to do better next time. -- #BlackLivesMatter ____ || \\UTGERS, |---------------------------*O*--------------------------- ||_// the State | Ryan Novosielski - novosirj at rutgers.edu || \\ University | Sr. Technologist - 973/972.0922 (2x0922) ~*~ RBHS Campus || \\ of NJ | Office of Advanced Research Computing - MSB C630, Newark `' ______________________________________________ R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.