There exists a fine line between being unintentionally rude, but helpful and purposely putting someone down. -- H On 25 January 2016 at 12:07, Duncan Murdoch <murdoch.duncan at gmail.com> wrote:> On 25/01/2016 2:45 PM, Oliver Keyes wrote: > >> I disagree, and would argue that fails to take a systemic view of this >> kind of behaviour. >> >> If individual commentators are acerbic and are only privately >> reprimanded, from the perspective of everyone else it looks like the >> acerbic reply was A-OK. Someone said something unnecessarily hostile >> and the response was...nada. That creates an environment where there >> are no clear examples of what crosses a line and no clear expectation >> that moderation is even a thing that happens. Indeed, I was shocked to >> discover this list _was_ moderated precisely because all I see is >> people being mean and nothing much else happening. >> > > Why would you bother to read it if that's all you see? I think there are > examples of posts here which are not at all helpful, and others which are > rude, but the majority are actually helpful (even some of the rude ones). > > Duncan Murdoch > > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see > stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide > R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. >-- OpenPGP: hasan.d8u.us/gpg.key Sent from my mobile device Envoy? de mon portable [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
On 25/01/2016 3:33 PM, Hasan Diwan wrote:> There exists a fine line between being unintentionally rude, but helpful > and purposely putting someone down. -- HI'm afraid I don't think your point is relevant. I didn't claim all the people who were rude did it unintentionally. However, I don't know anyone on the list who is always rude and never helpful. Oliver claimed almost everyone is like that. I actually agree with a weaker version of John's proposal (which I cut out of my reply to Oliver). I can imagine a public reprimand from one of the moderators would be appropriate. It would never be appropriate from general list members; that's what leads to flame wars. I'm not a moderator, so I would not publicly "remind the poster to reply in a more moderate tone", and neither should you (unless you're a moderator). It would be much better if one or both of us posted a more helpful response when we saw a rude, unhelpful one. Duncan Murdoch> > On 25 January 2016 at 12:07, Duncan Murdoch <murdoch.duncan at gmail.com> > wrote: > > > On 25/01/2016 2:45 PM, Oliver Keyes wrote: > > > >> I disagree, and would argue that fails to take a systemic view of this > >> kind of behaviour. > >> > >> If individual commentators are acerbic and are only privately > >> reprimanded, from the perspective of everyone else it looks like the > >> acerbic reply was A-OK. Someone said something unnecessarily hostile > >> and the response was...nada. That creates an environment where there > >> are no clear examples of what crosses a line and no clear expectation > >> that moderation is even a thing that happens. Indeed, I was shocked to > >> discover this list _was_ moderated precisely because all I see is > >> people being mean and nothing much else happening. > >> > > > > Why would you bother to read it if that's all you see? I think there are > > examples of posts here which are not at all helpful, and others which are > > rude, but the majority are actually helpful (even some of the rude ones). > > > > Duncan Murdoch > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see > > stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > > PLEASE do read the posting guide > > R-project.org/posting-guide.html > > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. > > > > >
On 25 January 2016 at 13:13, Duncan Murdoch <murdoch.duncan at gmail.com> wrote:> On 25/01/2016 3:33 PM, Hasan Diwan wrote: > >> There exists a fine line between being unintentionally rude, but helpful >> and purposely putting someone down. -- H >> > > I'm afraid I don't think your point is relevant. I didn't claim all the > people who were rude did it unintentionally. However, I don't know anyone > on the list who is always rude and never helpful. Oliver claimed almost > everyone is like that.> I actually agree with a weaker version of John's proposal (which I cut out > of my reply to Oliver). I can imagine a public reprimand from one of the > moderators would be appropriate. It would never be appropriate from > general list members; that's what leads to flame wars. > > I'm not a moderator, so I would not publicly "remind the poster to reply > in a more moderate tone", and neither should you (unless you're a > moderator). It would be much better if one or both of us posted a more > helpful response when we saw a rude, unhelpful one.I'm not one to attack others in general, and have developed thick skin, so a lot of what others find rude, I will ignore and get on with things. That said, if someone does tell me that e.g. "Hasan is being offensive because of $x, $y or $z", I'll apologise and get on with my life. Most of the time, when people find me offensive, it's because I treat others how I wish to be treated and the rhetoric just doesn't offend me. -- H> > > Duncan Murdoch > > > > >> On 25 January 2016 at 12:07, Duncan Murdoch <murdoch.duncan at gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> > On 25/01/2016 2:45 PM, Oliver Keyes wrote: >> > >> >> I disagree, and would argue that fails to take a systemic view of this >> >> kind of behaviour. >> >> >> >> If individual commentators are acerbic and are only privately >> >> reprimanded, from the perspective of everyone else it looks like the >> >> acerbic reply was A-OK. Someone said something unnecessarily hostile >> >> and the response was...nada. That creates an environment where there >> >> are no clear examples of what crosses a line and no clear expectation >> >> that moderation is even a thing that happens. Indeed, I was shocked to >> >> discover this list _was_ moderated precisely because all I see is >> >> people being mean and nothing much else happening. >> >> >> > >> > Why would you bother to read it if that's all you see? I think there >> are >> > examples of posts here which are not at all helpful, and others which >> are >> > rude, but the majority are actually helpful (even some of the rude >> ones). >> > >> > Duncan Murdoch >> > >> > >> > ______________________________________________ >> > R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see >> > stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help >> > PLEASE do read the posting guide >> > R-project.org/posting-guide.html >> > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. >> > >> >> >> >> >-- OpenPGP: hasan.d8u.us/gpg.key Sent from my mobile device Envoy? de mon portable [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
Sorry, poor phrasing on my part; on the occasions where someone is rude, all I see is... I agree the public cautioning should be done by moderators, yes. On 25 January 2016 at 16:13, Duncan Murdoch <murdoch.duncan at gmail.com> wrote:> On 25/01/2016 3:33 PM, Hasan Diwan wrote: >> >> There exists a fine line between being unintentionally rude, but helpful >> and purposely putting someone down. -- H > > > I'm afraid I don't think your point is relevant. I didn't claim all the > people who were rude did it unintentionally. However, I don't know anyone > on the list who is always rude and never helpful. Oliver claimed almost > everyone is like that. > > I actually agree with a weaker version of John's proposal (which I cut out > of my reply to Oliver). I can imagine a public reprimand from one of the > moderators would be appropriate. It would never be appropriate from general > list members; that's what leads to flame wars. > > I'm not a moderator, so I would not publicly "remind the poster to reply in > a more moderate tone", and neither should you (unless you're a moderator). > It would be much better if one or both of us posted a more helpful response > when we saw a rude, unhelpful one. > > Duncan Murdoch > > >> >> On 25 January 2016 at 12:07, Duncan Murdoch <murdoch.duncan at gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> > On 25/01/2016 2:45 PM, Oliver Keyes wrote: >> > >> >> I disagree, and would argue that fails to take a systemic view of this >> >> kind of behaviour. >> >> >> >> If individual commentators are acerbic and are only privately >> >> reprimanded, from the perspective of everyone else it looks like the >> >> acerbic reply was A-OK. Someone said something unnecessarily hostile >> >> and the response was...nada. That creates an environment where there >> >> are no clear examples of what crosses a line and no clear expectation >> >> that moderation is even a thing that happens. Indeed, I was shocked to >> >> discover this list _was_ moderated precisely because all I see is >> >> people being mean and nothing much else happening. >> >> >> > >> > Why would you bother to read it if that's all you see? I think there >> > are >> > examples of posts here which are not at all helpful, and others which >> > are >> > rude, but the majority are actually helpful (even some of the rude >> > ones). >> > >> > Duncan Murdoch >> > >> > >> > ______________________________________________ >> > R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see >> > stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help >> > PLEASE do read the posting guide >> > R-project.org/posting-guide.html >> > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. >> > >> >> >> > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see > stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.-- Oliver Keyes Count Logula Wikimedia Foundation
On Mon, 25 Jan 2016 12:33:12 -0800 Hasan Diwan <hasan.diwan at gmail.com> wrote:> There exists a fine line between being unintentionally rude, but > helpful and purposely putting someone down. -- HThe line is really not "fine" at all since it lies in that word "purposely." Also, you've associated "helpful" with unintentional rudeness. The distinction you've drawn is clear. JWDougherty