I'm glad to see the issue of negative feedback addressed. I can especially relate to the 'cringe' feeling when reading some authoritarian backhand to a new user. We do see a number of obviously inappropriate or overly lazy postings, but I encounter far more postings where I don't feel competent to judge their merit. It might be better to simply disregard a posting one does not like for some reason. It might also be worthwhile to actively counter negative feedback when we experience that 'cringing' moment. I'm not thinking to foster contention, but simply to provide some tangible reassurance to new users, and not just the ones invoking the negative feedback, that a particular respondent may not represent the perspective of the list. -----Original Message----- From: R-help [mailto:r-help-bounces at r-project.org] On Behalf Of Michael Friendly Sent: January 24, 2016 5:43 PM To: Jean-Luc Dupouey; r-help at r-project.org Subject: Re: [R] R-help mailing list activity / R-not-help? On 1/23/2016 7:28 AM, Jean-Luc Dupouey wrote:> Dear members, > > Not a technical question:But one worth raising...> > The number of threads in this mailing list, following a long period of > increase, has been regularly and strongly decreasing since 2010, > passing from more than 40K threads to less than 11K threads last year. > The trend is similar for most of the "ancient" mailing lists of the R-project.[snip ...]> > I hope it is the wright place to ask this question. Thanks in advance, >In addition to the other replies, there is another trend I've seen that has actively worked to suppress discussion on R-help and move it elsewhere. The general things: - R-help was too unwieldy and so it was a good idea to hive-off specialized topics to various sub lists, R-SIG-Mac, R-SIG-Geo, etc. - Many people posted badly-formed questions to R-help, and so it was a good idea to develop and refer to the posting guide to mitigate the number of purely junk postings. <rant> Yet, the trend I've seen is one of increasing **R-not-help**, in that there are many posts, often by new R users who get replies that not infrequently range from just mildly off-putting to actively hostile: - Is this homework? We don't do homework (sometimes false alarms, where the OP has to reply to say it is not) - Didn't you bother to do your homework, RTFM, or Google? - This is off-topic because XXX (e.g., it is not strictly an R programming question). - You asked about doing XXX, but this is a stupid thing to want to do. - Don't ask here; you need to talk to a statistical consultant. I find this sad in a public mailing list sent to all R-help subscribers and I sometimes cringe when I read replies to people who were actually trying to get help with some R-related problem, but expressed it badly, didn't know exactly what to ask for, or how to format it, or somehow motivated a frequent-replier to publicly dis the OP. On the other hand, I still see a spirit of great generosity among some people who frequently reply to R-help, taking a possibly badly posed or ill-formatted question, and going to some lengths to provide a a helpful answer of some sort. I applaud those who take the time and effort to do this. I use R in a number of my courses, and used to advise students to post to R-help for general programming questions (not just homework) they couldn't solve. I don't do this any more, because several of them reported a negative experience. In contrast, in the Stackexchange model, there are numerous sublists cross-classified by their tags. If I have a specific knitr, ggplot2, LaTeX, or statistical modeling question, I'm now more likely to post it there, and the worst that can happen is that no one "upvotes" it or someone (helpfully) marks it as a duplicate of a similar question. But comments there are not propagated to all subscribers, and those who reply helpfully, can see their solutions accepted or not, or commented on in that specific topic. Perhaps one solution would be to create a new "R-not-help" list where, as in a Monty Python skit, people could be directed there to be insulted and all these unhelpful replies could be sent. A milder alternative is to encourage some R-help subscribers to click the "Don't send" or "Save" button and think better of their replies. </rant> -- Michael Friendly Email: friendly AT yorku DOT ca Professor, Psychology Dept. & Chair, Quantitative Methods York University Voice: 416 736-2100 x66249 Fax: 416 736-5814 4700 Keele Street Web: datavis.ca Toronto, ONT M3J 1P3 CANADA ______________________________________________ R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
+1. And frankly I would like to suggest that there is another obvious solution here; pairing a set of guidelines around expected user behaviour with removing people from the mailing list, or moderating them, if they do not think that creating a non-toxic environment is good. On 25 January 2016 at 07:23, Fowler, Mark <Mark.Fowler at dfo-mpo.gc.ca> wrote:> I'm glad to see the issue of negative feedback addressed. I can especially relate to the 'cringe' feeling when reading some authoritarian backhand to a new user. We do see a number of obviously inappropriate or overly lazy postings, but I encounter far more postings where I don't feel competent to judge their merit. It might be better to simply disregard a posting one does not like for some reason. It might also be worthwhile to actively counter negative feedback when we experience that 'cringing' moment. I'm not thinking to foster contention, but simply to provide some tangible reassurance to new users, and not just the ones invoking the negative feedback, that a particular respondent may not represent the perspective of the list. > > -----Original Message----- > From: R-help [mailto:r-help-bounces at r-project.org] On Behalf Of Michael Friendly > Sent: January 24, 2016 5:43 PM > To: Jean-Luc Dupouey; r-help at r-project.org > Subject: Re: [R] R-help mailing list activity / R-not-help? > > > On 1/23/2016 7:28 AM, Jean-Luc Dupouey wrote: >> Dear members, >> >> Not a technical question: > But one worth raising... >> >> The number of threads in this mailing list, following a long period of >> increase, has been regularly and strongly decreasing since 2010, >> passing from more than 40K threads to less than 11K threads last year. >> The trend is similar for most of the "ancient" mailing lists of the R-project. > [snip ...] >> >> I hope it is the wright place to ask this question. Thanks in advance, >> > > In addition to the other replies, there is another trend I've seen that has actively worked to suppress discussion on R-help and move it elsewhere. The general things: > - R-help was too unwieldy and so it was a good idea to hive-off specialized topics to various sub lists, R-SIG-Mac, R-SIG-Geo, etc. > - Many people posted badly-formed questions to R-help, and so it was a good idea to develop and refer to the posting guide to mitigate the number of purely junk postings. > > <rant> > Yet, the trend I've seen is one of increasing **R-not-help**, in that there are many posts, often by new R users who get replies that not infrequently range from just mildly off-putting to actively hostile: > > - Is this homework? We don't do homework (sometimes false alarms, where the OP has to reply to say it is not) > - Didn't you bother to do your homework, RTFM, or Google? > - This is off-topic because XXX (e.g., it is not strictly an R programming question). > - You asked about doing XXX, but this is a stupid thing to want to do. > - Don't ask here; you need to talk to a statistical consultant. > > I find this sad in a public mailing list sent to all R-help subscribers and I sometimes cringe when I read replies to people who were actually trying to get help with some R-related problem, but expressed it badly, didn't know exactly what to ask for, or how to format it, or somehow motivated a frequent-replier to publicly dis the OP. > > On the other hand, I still see a spirit of great generosity among some people who frequently reply to R-help, taking a possibly badly posed or ill-formatted question, and going to some lengths to provide a a helpful answer of some sort. I applaud those who take the time and effort to do this. > > I use R in a number of my courses, and used to advise students to post to R-help for general programming questions (not just homework) they couldn't solve. I don't do this any more, because several of them reported a negative experience. > > In contrast, in the Stackexchange model, there are numerous sublists cross-classified by their tags. If I have a specific knitr, ggplot2, LaTeX, or statistical modeling question, I'm now more likely to post it there, and the worst that can happen is that no one "upvotes" it or someone (helpfully) marks it as a duplicate of a similar question. > But comments there are not propagated to all subscribers, and those who reply helpfully, can see their solutions accepted or not, or commented on in that specific topic. > > Perhaps one solution would be to create a new "R-not-help" list where, as in a Monty Python skit, people could be directed there to be insulted and all these unhelpful replies could be sent. > > A milder alternative is to encourage some R-help subscribers to click the "Don't send" or "Save" button and think better of their replies. > </rant> > > -- > Michael Friendly Email: friendly AT yorku DOT ca > Professor, Psychology Dept. & Chair, Quantitative Methods > York University Voice: 416 736-2100 x66249 Fax: 416 736-5814 > 4700 Keele Street Web: datavis.ca > Toronto, ONT M3J 1P3 CANADA > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see > stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.-- Oliver Keyes Count Logula Wikimedia Foundation
My feelings exactly! (And since quite some time ago). Ted. On 25-Jan-2016 12:23:16 Fowler, Mark wrote:> I'm glad to see the issue of negative feedback addressed. I can especially > relate to the 'cringe' feeling when reading some authoritarian backhand to a > new user. We do see a number of obviously inappropriate or overly lazy > postings, but I encounter far more postings where I don't feel competent to > judge their merit. It might be better to simply disregard a posting one does > not like for some reason. It might also be worthwhile to actively counter > negative feedback when we experience that 'cringing' moment. I'm not thinking > to foster contention, but simply to provide some tangible reassurance to new > users, and not just the ones invoking the negative feedback, that a > particular respondent may not represent the perspective of the list. > > -----Original Message----- > From: R-help [mailto:r-help-bounces at r-project.org] On Behalf Of Michael > Friendly > Sent: January 24, 2016 5:43 PM > To: Jean-Luc Dupouey; r-help at r-project.org > Subject: Re: [R] R-help mailing list activity / R-not-help? > > > On 1/23/2016 7:28 AM, Jean-Luc Dupouey wrote: >> Dear members, >> >> Not a technical question: > But one worth raising... >> >> The number of threads in this mailing list, following a long period of >> increase, has been regularly and strongly decreasing since 2010, >> passing from more than 40K threads to less than 11K threads last year. >> The trend is similar for most of the "ancient" mailing lists of the >> R-project. > [snip ...] >> >> I hope it is the wright place to ask this question. Thanks in advance, >> > > In addition to the other replies, there is another trend I've seen that has > actively worked to suppress discussion on R-help and move it elsewhere. The > general things: > - R-help was too unwieldy and so it was a good idea to hive-off specialized > topics to various sub lists, R-SIG-Mac, R-SIG-Geo, etc. > - Many people posted badly-formed questions to R-help, and so it was a good > idea to develop and refer to the posting guide to mitigate the number of > purely junk postings. > > <rant> > Yet, the trend I've seen is one of increasing **R-not-help**, in that there > are many posts, often by new R users who get replies that not infrequently > range from just mildly off-putting to actively hostile: > > - Is this homework? We don't do homework (sometimes false alarms, where the > OP has to reply to say it is not) > - Didn't you bother to do your homework, RTFM, or Google? > - This is off-topic because XXX (e.g., it is not strictly an R programming > question). > - You asked about doing XXX, but this is a stupid thing to want to do. > - Don't ask here; you need to talk to a statistical consultant. > > I find this sad in a public mailing list sent to all R-help subscribers and I > sometimes cringe when I read replies to people who were actually trying to > get help with some R-related problem, but expressed it badly, didn't know > exactly what to ask for, or how to format it, or somehow motivated a > frequent-replier to publicly dis the OP. > > On the other hand, I still see a spirit of great generosity among some people > who frequently reply to R-help, taking a possibly badly posed or > ill-formatted question, and going to some lengths to provide a a helpful > answer of some sort. I applaud those who take the time and effort to do > this. > > I use R in a number of my courses, and used to advise students to post to > R-help for general programming questions (not just homework) they couldn't > solve. I don't do this any more, because several of them reported a negative > experience. > > In contrast, in the Stackexchange model, there are numerous sublists > cross-classified by their tags. If I have a specific knitr, ggplot2, LaTeX, > or statistical modeling question, I'm now more likely to post it there, and > the worst that can happen is that no one "upvotes" it or someone (helpfully) > marks it as a duplicate of a similar question. > But comments there are not propagated to all subscribers, and those who reply > helpfully, can see their solutions accepted or not, or commented on in that > specific topic. > > Perhaps one solution would be to create a new "R-not-help" list where, as in > a Monty Python skit, people could be directed there to be insulted and all > these unhelpful replies could be sent. > > A milder alternative is to encourage some R-help subscribers to click the > "Don't send" or "Save" button and think better of their replies. > </rant> > > -- > Michael Friendly Email: friendly AT yorku DOT ca > Professor, Psychology Dept. & Chair, Quantitative Methods > York University Voice: 416 736-2100 x66249 Fax: 416 736-5814 > 4700 Keele Street Web: datavis.ca > Toronto, ONT M3J 1P3 CANADA------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding at wlandres.net> Date: 25-Jan-2016 Time: 17:14:06 This message was sent by XFMail
When we read acerbic replies we should remind the poster to reply in a more moderate tone. On the other hand noting that the list is not intended to be a source of answers to home work questions is 100% appropriate. This philosophy is intended both to keep the list from being flooded with questions and to make sure that no student has an unfair advantage. John> John David Sorkin M.D., Ph.D. > Professor of Medicine > Chief, Biostatistics and Informatics > University of Maryland School of Medicine Division of Gerontology and Geriatric Medicine > Baltimore VA Medical Center > 10 North Greene Street > GRECC (BT/18/GR) > Baltimore, MD 21201-1524 > (Phone) 410-605-7119 > (Fax) 410-605-7913 (Please call phone number above prior to faxing)> On Jan 25, 2016, at 12:17 PM, Ted Harding <Ted.Harding at wlandres.net> wrote: > > My feelings exactly! (And since quite some time ago). > Ted. > >> On 25-Jan-2016 12:23:16 Fowler, Mark wrote: >> I'm glad to see the issue of negative feedback addressed. I can especially >> relate to the 'cringe' feeling when reading some authoritarian backhand to a >> new user. We do see a number of obviously inappropriate or overly lazy >> postings, but I encounter far more postings where I don't feel competent to >> judge their merit. It might be better to simply disregard a posting one does >> not like for some reason. It might also be worthwhile to actively counter >> negative feedback when we experience that 'cringing' moment. I'm not thinking >> to foster contention, but simply to provide some tangible reassurance to new >> users, and not just the ones invoking the negative feedback, that a >> particular respondent may not represent the perspective of the list. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: R-help [mailto:r-help-bounces at r-project.org] On Behalf Of Michael >> Friendly >> Sent: January 24, 2016 5:43 PM >> To: Jean-Luc Dupouey; r-help at r-project.org >> Subject: Re: [R] R-help mailing list activity / R-not-help? >> >> >>> On 1/23/2016 7:28 AM, Jean-Luc Dupouey wrote: >>> Dear members, >>> >>> Not a technical question: >> But one worth raising... >>> >>> The number of threads in this mailing list, following a long period of >>> increase, has been regularly and strongly decreasing since 2010, >>> passing from more than 40K threads to less than 11K threads last year. >>> The trend is similar for most of the "ancient" mailing lists of the >>> R-project. >> [snip ...] >>> >>> I hope it is the wright place to ask this question. Thanks in advance, >> >> In addition to the other replies, there is another trend I've seen that has >> actively worked to suppress discussion on R-help and move it elsewhere. The >> general things: >> - R-help was too unwieldy and so it was a good idea to hive-off specialized >> topics to various sub lists, R-SIG-Mac, R-SIG-Geo, etc. >> - Many people posted badly-formed questions to R-help, and so it was a good >> idea to develop and refer to the posting guide to mitigate the number of >> purely junk postings. >> >> <rant> >> Yet, the trend I've seen is one of increasing **R-not-help**, in that there >> are many posts, often by new R users who get replies that not infrequently >> range from just mildly off-putting to actively hostile: >> >> - Is this homework? We don't do homework (sometimes false alarms, where the >> OP has to reply to say it is not) >> - Didn't you bother to do your homework, RTFM, or Google? >> - This is off-topic because XXX (e.g., it is not strictly an R programming >> question). >> - You asked about doing XXX, but this is a stupid thing to want to do. >> - Don't ask here; you need to talk to a statistical consultant. >> >> I find this sad in a public mailing list sent to all R-help subscribers and I >> sometimes cringe when I read replies to people who were actually trying to >> get help with some R-related problem, but expressed it badly, didn't know >> exactly what to ask for, or how to format it, or somehow motivated a >> frequent-replier to publicly dis the OP. >> >> On the other hand, I still see a spirit of great generosity among some people >> who frequently reply to R-help, taking a possibly badly posed or >> ill-formatted question, and going to some lengths to provide a a helpful >> answer of some sort. I applaud those who take the time and effort to do >> this. >> >> I use R in a number of my courses, and used to advise students to post to >> R-help for general programming questions (not just homework) they couldn't >> solve. I don't do this any more, because several of them reported a negative >> experience. >> >> In contrast, in the Stackexchange model, there are numerous sublists >> cross-classified by their tags. If I have a specific knitr, ggplot2, LaTeX, >> or statistical modeling question, I'm now more likely to post it there, and >> the worst that can happen is that no one "upvotes" it or someone (helpfully) >> marks it as a duplicate of a similar question. >> But comments there are not propagated to all subscribers, and those who reply >> helpfully, can see their solutions accepted or not, or commented on in that >> specific topic. >> >> Perhaps one solution would be to create a new "R-not-help" list where, as in >> a Monty Python skit, people could be directed there to be insulted and all >> these unhelpful replies could be sent. >> >> A milder alternative is to encourage some R-help subscribers to click the >> "Don't send" or "Save" button and think better of their replies. >> </rant> >> >> -- >> Michael Friendly Email: friendly AT yorku DOT ca >> Professor, Psychology Dept. & Chair, Quantitative Methods >> York University Voice: 416 736-2100 x66249 Fax: 416 736-5814 >> 4700 Keele Street Web: datavis.ca >> Toronto, ONT M3J 1P3 CANADA > > ------------------------------------------------- > E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding at wlandres.net> > Date: 25-Jan-2016 Time: 17:14:06 > This message was sent by XFMail > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see > stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.Confidentiality Statement: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message.
On Mon, 25 Jan 2016 11:06:35 -0500 Oliver Keyes <okeyes at wikimedia.org> wrote:> +1. And frankly I would like to suggest that there is another obvious > solution here; pairing a set of guidelines around expected user > behaviour with removing people from the mailing list, or moderating > them, if they do not think that creating a non-toxic environment is > good. >The problem is defining a "toxic environment." One person can find all kinds of offense and rudness in something where another would be appreciating a short, concise response, such as a suggestion to "read the manual." "Toxic" is personal and one can find it wherever one looks, if so minded. I suspect that if one perceives rudeness, one ought to check and see that we haven't left our sensibilities out in the traffic pattern where they are bound to be trampled.
On 01/25/2016 11:06 AM, Oliver Keyes wrote:> +1. And frankly I would like to suggest that there is another obvious > solution here; pairing a set of guidelines around expected user > behaviour with removing people from the mailing list, or moderating > them, if they do not think that creating a non-toxic environment is > good. >These guidelines DO exist. It is called the posting guide. Unfortunately, it is clear that some people cannot be bothered to read that. Is that an excuse to be mistreated? By no means. If you, or anyone else has a good way to encourage new users to read and use the guidelines, I think we would love to hear it.> On 25 January 2016 at 07:23, Fowler, Mark <Mark.Fowler at dfo-mpo.gc.ca> wrote: >> I'm glad to see the issue of negative feedback addressed. I can especially relate to the 'cringe' feeling when reading some authoritarian backhand to a new user. We do see a number of obviously inappropriate or overly lazy postings, but I encounter far more postings where I don't feel competent to judge their merit. It might be better to simply disregard a posting one does not like for some reason. It might also be worthwhile to actively counter negative feedback when we experience that 'cringing' moment. I'm not thinking to foster contention, but simply to provide some tangible reassurance to new users, and not just the ones invoking the negative feedback, that a particular respondent may not represent the perspective of the list. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: R-help [mailto:r-help-bounces at r-project.org] On Behalf Of Michael Friendly >> Sent: January 24, 2016 5:43 PM >> To: Jean-Luc Dupouey; r-help at r-project.org >> Subject: Re: [R] R-help mailing list activity / R-not-help? >> >> >> On 1/23/2016 7:28 AM, Jean-Luc Dupouey wrote: >>> Dear members, >>> >>> Not a technical question: >> But one worth raising... >>> >>> The number of threads in this mailing list, following a long period of >>> increase, has been regularly and strongly decreasing since 2010, >>> passing from more than 40K threads to less than 11K threads last year. >>> The trend is similar for most of the "ancient" mailing lists of the R-project. >> [snip ...] >>> >>> I hope it is the wright place to ask this question. Thanks in advance, >>> >> >> In addition to the other replies, there is another trend I've seen that has actively worked to suppress discussion on R-help and move it elsewhere. The general things: >> - R-help was too unwieldy and so it was a good idea to hive-off specialized topics to various sub lists, R-SIG-Mac, R-SIG-Geo, etc. >> - Many people posted badly-formed questions to R-help, and so it was a good idea to develop and refer to the posting guide to mitigate the number of purely junk postings. >> >> <rant> >> Yet, the trend I've seen is one of increasing **R-not-help**, in that there are many posts, often by new R users who get replies that not infrequently range from just mildly off-putting to actively hostile: >> >> - Is this homework? We don't do homework (sometimes false alarms, where the OP has to reply to say it is not) >> - Didn't you bother to do your homework, RTFM, or Google? >> - This is off-topic because XXX (e.g., it is not strictly an R programming question). >> - You asked about doing XXX, but this is a stupid thing to want to do. >> - Don't ask here; you need to talk to a statistical consultant. >> >> I find this sad in a public mailing list sent to all R-help subscribers and I sometimes cringe when I read replies to people who were actually trying to get help with some R-related problem, but expressed it badly, didn't know exactly what to ask for, or how to format it, or somehow motivated a frequent-replier to publicly dis the OP. >> >> On the other hand, I still see a spirit of great generosity among some people who frequently reply to R-help, taking a possibly badly posed or ill-formatted question, and going to some lengths to provide a a helpful answer of some sort. I applaud those who take the time and effort to do this. >> >> I use R in a number of my courses, and used to advise students to post to R-help for general programming questions (not just homework) they couldn't solve. I don't do this any more, because several of them reported a negative experience. >> >> In contrast, in the Stackexchange model, there are numerous sublists cross-classified by their tags. If I have a specific knitr, ggplot2, LaTeX, or statistical modeling question, I'm now more likely to post it there, and the worst that can happen is that no one "upvotes" it or someone (helpfully) marks it as a duplicate of a similar question. >> But comments there are not propagated to all subscribers, and those who reply helpfully, can see their solutions accepted or not, or commented on in that specific topic. >> >> Perhaps one solution would be to create a new "R-not-help" list where, as in a Monty Python skit, people could be directed there to be insulted and all these unhelpful replies could be sent. >> >> A milder alternative is to encourage some R-help subscribers to click the "Don't send" or "Save" button and think better of their replies. >> </rant> >>-- Kevin E. Thorpe Head of Biostatistics, Applied Health Research Centre (AHRC) Li Ka Shing Knowledge Institute of St. Michael's Assistant Professor, Dalla Lana School of Public Health University of Toronto email: kevin.thorpe at utoronto.ca Tel: 416.864.5776 Fax: 416.864.3016