Puppet users - Nov 2010 - Thoughts on dropping 0.24.x client support in Puppet 2.7?

I mentioned this in an earlier thread, but here''s a dedicated one.

We made a big change between 0.24.x and 0.25.x where we moved from
XMLRPC to REST.

How do people feel about us dropping all XMLRPC support from 2.7.x,
such that it only supported Puppet clients 0.25.x and higher?



-- 
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On 24 November 2010 23:50, Nigel Kersten <nigel@puppetlabs.com>
wrote:
> I mentioned this in an earlier thread, but here''s a dedicated one.
>
> We made a big change between 0.24.x and 0.25.x where we moved from
> XMLRPC to REST.
>
> How do people feel about us dropping all XMLRPC support from 2.7.x,
> such that it only supported Puppet clients 0.25.x and higher?
That depends on the support model (for bug fixes) puppetlabs is
prepared to support.

I''d be inclined to support all recent client releases under a year old
at a minimum. Longer for the real enterprisey conservative shops.
Remember, a fair few places in the UK are still-running-IE-6 shops.

My firm would be happy for a six month release/patch cycle, but we''re
not change averse. Others firms I''ve worked for are.

Gary




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Gary Law <garylaw@garylaw.net> writes:
> On 24 November 2010 23:50, Nigel Kersten <nigel@puppetlabs.com>
wrote:
>> I mentioned this in an earlier thread, but here''s a dedicated
one.
>>
>> We made a big change between 0.24.x and 0.25.x where we moved from
>> XMLRPC to REST.
>>
>> How do people feel about us dropping all XMLRPC support from 2.7.x,
>> such that it only supported Puppet clients 0.25.x and higher?
>
> That depends on the support model (for bug fixes) puppetlabs is prepared to
> support.  I''d be inclined to support all recent client releases
under a year
> old at a minimum. Longer for the real enterprisey conservative shops.
> Remember, a fair few places in the UK are still-running-IE-6 shops.
One of the bits of feedback I have had from various folks out in the wider
world is that (right or wrong) they already feel that Puppet has a pretty fast
upgrade cycle and a very poor backward compatibility story.
> My firm would be happy for a six month release/patch cycle, but
we''re not
> change averse. Others firms I''ve worked for are.
*nod*  I think that the Debian maintainers would be less than thrilled at
support for the versions in Debian/stable being dropped totally, and users of
Debian would be unthrilled with needing something out of backports to talk to
their newer Puppet server.

        Daniel
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On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Daniel Pittman <daniel@rimspace.net>
wrote:
> Gary Law <garylaw@garylaw.net> writes:
>> On 24 November 2010 23:50, Nigel Kersten <nigel@puppetlabs.com>
wrote:
>>> I mentioned this in an earlier thread, but here''s a
dedicated one.
>>>
>>> We made a big change between 0.24.x and 0.25.x where we moved from
>>> XMLRPC to REST.
>>>
>>> How do people feel about us dropping all XMLRPC support from 2.7.x,
>>> such that it only supported Puppet clients 0.25.x and higher?
>>
>> That depends on the support model (for bug fixes) puppetlabs is
prepared to
>> support.  I''d be inclined to support all recent client
releases under a year
>> old at a minimum. Longer for the real enterprisey conservative shops.
>> Remember, a fair few places in the UK are still-running-IE-6 shops.
>
> One of the bits of feedback I have had from various folks out in the wider
> world is that (right or wrong) they already feel that Puppet has a pretty
fast
> upgrade cycle and a very poor backward compatibility story.
>
>> My firm would be happy for a six month release/patch cycle, but
we''re not
>> change averse. Others firms I''ve worked for are.
>
> *nod*  I think that the Debian maintainers would be less than thrilled at
> support for the versions in Debian/stable being dropped totally, and users
of
> Debian would be unthrilled with needing something out of backports to talk
to
> their newer Puppet server.
To clarify, I''m not saying we''re dropping support for people
running
those versions, just dropping support for 2.7.x server to talk to
0.24.x clients and earlier.

I believe we''ve always suggested keeping client and server versions
close, with the server being upgraded before the clients.

The people with Debian stable installs can continue to run the version
of server and client that is available to them, same goes for any
platform that only offers 0.24.x, 0.25.x or 2.6.x.

I''m suggesting this for 2.7.x. Are people really likely to be running
2.7.x servers with 0.24.x clients? I think I would advise people
that''s not a particularly wonderful combination anyway, given how much
code is shared between the server and the client.

If you''re packaging puppet servers to run 2.7.x, you''ve
already done
all the work to package puppet clients for 2.7.x.


-- 
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I''d be in favor of only maintaining one rev behind for compatibility
(2.7.x will support 2.6.x but not earlier).

Cheers,
Ryan

On Nov 24, 2010, at 4:57 PM, Nigel Kersten wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Daniel Pittman <daniel@rimspace.net>
wrote:
>> Gary Law <garylaw@garylaw.net> writes:
>>> On 24 November 2010 23:50, Nigel Kersten
<nigel@puppetlabs.com> wrote:
>>>> I mentioned this in an earlier thread, but here''s a
dedicated one.
>>>> 
>>>> We made a big change between 0.24.x and 0.25.x where we moved
from
>>>> XMLRPC to REST.
>>>> 
>>>> How do people feel about us dropping all XMLRPC support from
2.7.x,
>>>> such that it only supported Puppet clients 0.25.x and higher?
>>> 
>>> That depends on the support model (for bug fixes) puppetlabs is
prepared to
>>> support.  I''d be inclined to support all recent client
releases under a year
>>> old at a minimum. Longer for the real enterprisey conservative
shops.
>>> Remember, a fair few places in the UK are still-running-IE-6 shops.
>> 
>> One of the bits of feedback I have had from various folks out in the
wider
>> world is that (right or wrong) they already feel that Puppet has a
pretty fast
>> upgrade cycle and a very poor backward compatibility story.
>> 
>>> My firm would be happy for a six month release/patch cycle, but
we''re not
>>> change averse. Others firms I''ve worked for are.
>> 
>> *nod*  I think that the Debian maintainers would be less than thrilled
at
>> support for the versions in Debian/stable being dropped totally, and
users of
>> Debian would be unthrilled with needing something out of backports to
talk to
>> their newer Puppet server.
> 
> To clarify, I''m not saying we''re dropping support for
people running
> those versions, just dropping support for 2.7.x server to talk to
> 0.24.x clients and earlier.
> 
> I believe we''ve always suggested keeping client and server
versions
> close, with the server being upgraded before the clients.
> 
> The people with Debian stable installs can continue to run the version
> of server and client that is available to them, same goes for any
> platform that only offers 0.24.x, 0.25.x or 2.6.x.
> 
> I''m suggesting this for 2.7.x. Are people really likely to be
running
> 2.7.x servers with 0.24.x clients? I think I would advise people
> that''s not a particularly wonderful combination anyway, given how
much
> code is shared between the server and the client.
> 
> If you''re packaging puppet servers to run 2.7.x, you''ve
already done
> all the work to package puppet clients for 2.7.x.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Nigel Kersten - Puppet Labs -  http://www.puppetlabs.com
> 
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Nigel Kersten <nigel@puppetlabs.com> writes:
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Daniel Pittman <daniel@rimspace.net>
wrote:
>> Gary Law <garylaw@garylaw.net> writes:
>>> On 24 November 2010 23:50, Nigel Kersten
<nigel@puppetlabs.com> wrote:
>>>> I mentioned this in an earlier thread, but here''s a
dedicated one.
>>>>
>>>> We made a big change between 0.24.x and 0.25.x where we moved
from
>>>> XMLRPC to REST.
>>>>
>>>> How do people feel about us dropping all XMLRPC support from
2.7.x,
>>>> such that it only supported Puppet clients 0.25.x and higher?
>>>
>>> That depends on the support model (for bug fixes) puppetlabs is
prepared to
>>> support.  I''d be inclined to support all recent client
releases under a year
>>> old at a minimum. Longer for the real enterprisey conservative
shops.
>>> Remember, a fair few places in the UK are still-running-IE-6 shops.
>>
>> One of the bits of feedback I have had from various folks out in the
wider
>> world is that (right or wrong) they already feel that Puppet has a
pretty fast
>> upgrade cycle and a very poor backward compatibility story.
>>
>>> My firm would be happy for a six month release/patch cycle, but
we''re not
>>> change averse. Others firms I''ve worked for are.
>>
>> *nod*  I think that the Debian maintainers would be less than thrilled
at
>> support for the versions in Debian/stable being dropped totally, and
users of
>> Debian would be unthrilled with needing something out of backports to
talk to
>> their newer Puppet server.
>
> To clarify, I''m not saying we''re dropping support for
people running those
> versions, just dropping support for 2.7.x server to talk to 0.24.x clients
> and earlier.
As long as that clarification is in the final announcement, folks should
hopefully be a bit less unhappy about the change, indeed. :)

[...]
> I''m suggesting this for 2.7.x. Are people really likely to be
running
> 2.7.x servers with 0.24.x clients?
Well, it would be convenient for me to be able to do that, because then my
host rollout would be "install the upstream package, and have puppet manage
the process of self-updating to our own packages".

Not essential, though, and:
> I think I would advise people that''s not a particularly wonderful
> combination anyway, given how much code is shared between the server and
the
> client.
>
> If you''re packaging puppet servers to run 2.7.x, you''ve
already done
> all the work to package puppet clients for 2.7.x.
...I tend to agree with this.
        Daniel
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On Nov 24, 2010, at 3:50 PM, Nigel Kersten wrote:
> I mentioned this in an earlier thread, but here''s a dedicated one.
> 
> We made a big change between 0.24.x and 0.25.x where we moved from
> XMLRPC to REST.
> 
> How do people feel about us dropping all XMLRPC support from 2.7.x,
> such that it only supported Puppet clients 0.25.x and higher?
I don''t need it, but at the very least, I think that doing that before
Debian stable picks up 0.25.x is probably a terrible idea.

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2010/11/25 Nigel Kersten <nigel@puppetlabs.com>
> [...]
> How do people feel about us dropping all XMLRPC support from 2.7.x,
> such that it only supported Puppet clients 0.25.x and higher?
> [...]
>
Will it be possible to run two puppet server instances (2.6.x and 2.7.x) on
the same host on different ports? If yes, go ahead and drop XMLRPC support.

Kind regards, Thomas

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
>> [...]
>> How do people feel about us dropping all XMLRPC support from 2.7.x,
>> such that it only supported Puppet clients 0.25.x and higher?
>> [...]
>>
> 
> Will it be possible to run two puppet server instances (2.6.x and 2.7.x) on
> the same host on different ports? If yes, go ahead and drop XMLRPC support.
that''s already possible now. If you know how a bit how to run ruby
applications from different codebases this is is quite straight forward
and without much magic.

~pete
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 00:50:30 +0100, Nigel Kersten <nigel@puppetlabs.com>  
wrote:
> I mentioned this in an earlier thread, but here''s a dedicated one.
>
> We made a big change between 0.24.x and 0.25.x where we moved from
> XMLRPC to REST.
>
> How do people feel about us dropping all XMLRPC support from 2.7.x,
> such that it only supported Puppet clients 0.25.x and higher?
I''m running Debian stable, which currently has 0.24.5.

It''s been fine so far, but of course I''m preparing to upgrade.
Squeeze is almost there (2.6.2), so I''d say at least 6 months
after release of squeeze would be a reasonable time.

-- 
Cosimo

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On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Daniel Pittman <daniel@rimspace.net>
wrote:
>> One of the bits of feedback I have had from various folks out in the
wider
> world is that (right or wrong) they already feel that Puppet has a pretty
fast
> upgrade cycle and a very poor backward compatibility story.
>
>> My firm would be happy for a six month release/patch cycle, but
we''re not
>> change averse. Others firms I''ve worked for are.
>
> *nod*  I think that the Debian maintainers would be less than thrilled at
> support for the versions in Debian/stable being dropped totally, and users
of
> Debian would be unthrilled with needing something out of backports to talk
to
> their newer Puppet server.
I second the above.

-- 
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☎ (202) 319-2489 - ⬡ (202) 538-2845

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Hello,

Am Do den 25. Nov 2010 um  0:50 schrieb Nigel Kersten:
> We made a big change between 0.24.x and 0.25.x where we moved from
> XMLRPC to REST.
> 
> How do people feel about us dropping all XMLRPC support from 2.7.x,
> such that it only supported Puppet clients 0.25.x and higher?
Personally I would say to drop support for earlier versions but ...

There are many distributions out there providing 0.24 version only. And
as the use of puppet is to manage many distributions, even the
antiquated »enterprise« distributions, I think that dropping support for
version lower than 0.25 is not that good idea.

Regards
   Klaus
- -- 
Klaus Ethgen                            http://www.ethgen.de/
pub  2048R/D1A4EDE5 2000-02-26 Klaus Ethgen <Klaus@Ethgen.de>
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2010/11/25 Klaus Ethgen <Klaus+puppet@ethgen.de
<Klaus%2Bpuppet@ethgen.de>>
> [...]
> There are many distributions out there providing 0.24 version only. And
> as the use of puppet is to manage many distributions, even the
> antiquated »enterprise« distributions, I think that dropping support for
> version lower than 0.25 is not that good idea.
> [...]
>
But on this distributions you normaly use also the old server variant, so
shouldn''t be a problem. And if you make you''re own repository
with actual
puppet rpms you should upgrade the client as well I would assume.

Kind regards, Thomas

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Hi,

Am Do den 25. Nov 2010 um 15:04 schrieb Thomas Bendler:
> 2010/11/25 Klaus Ethgen <Klaus+puppet@ethgen.de
<Klaus%2Bpuppet@ethgen.de>>
> 
> > [...]
> > There are many distributions out there providing 0.24 version only.
And
> > as the use of puppet is to manage many distributions, even the
> > antiquated »enterprise« distributions, I think that dropping support
for
> > version lower than 0.25 is not that good idea.
> > [...]
> >
> 
> But on this distributions you normaly use also the old server variant,
No. That is the problem. The old versions had have big problems and
normally you have the master on recent system but all the old machines
installed with old versions.
> And if you make you''re own repository with actual puppet rpms you
> should upgrade the client as well I would assume.
That would be a point. But that issue is a big issue if you have to hold
many distributions up2date. And this is also a political problem to tell
the management that you need new version of a package if the
distribution has it (management doesn''t care about the version of
software unless they have to use it).

Regards
   Klaus
- -- 
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pub  2048R/D1A4EDE5 2000-02-26 Klaus Ethgen <Klaus@Ethgen.de>
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On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 7:34 AM, Klaus Ethgen <Klaus+puppet@ethgen.de>
wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> Hi,
>
> Am Do den 25. Nov 2010 um 15:04 schrieb Thomas Bendler:
>> 2010/11/25 Klaus Ethgen <Klaus+puppet@ethgen.de
<Klaus%2Bpuppet@ethgen.de>>
>>
>> > [...]
>> > There are many distributions out there providing 0.24 version
only. And
>> > as the use of puppet is to manage many distributions, even the
>> > antiquated »enterprise« distributions, I think that dropping
support for
>> > version lower than 0.25 is not that good idea.
>> > [...]
>> >
>>
>> But on this distributions you normaly use also the old server variant,
>
> No. That is the problem. The old versions had have big problems and
> normally you have the master on recent system but all the old machines
> installed with old versions.
Ok, lets take that as a requirement.

If we take the position that at some point we''re going to have to
declare we only support clients of a certain vintage, what would be a
reasonable version to drop client support for?
>> And if you make you''re own repository with actual puppet rpms
you
>> should upgrade the client as well I would assume.
>
> That would be a point. But that issue is a big issue if you have to hold
> many distributions up2date. And this is also a political problem to tell
> the management that you need new version of a package if the
> distribution has it (management doesn''t care about the version of
> software unless they have to use it).
So they care about your clients but not your servers? Why are they different?

>
> Regards
>   Klaus
> - --
> Klaus Ethgen                            http://www.ethgen.de/
> pub  2048R/D1A4EDE5 2000-02-26 Klaus Ethgen <Klaus@Ethgen.de>
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>
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On Nov 24, 3:50 pm, Nigel Kersten <ni...@puppetlabs.com>
wrote:
> I mentioned this in an earlier thread, but here''s a dedicated one.
>
> We made a big change between 0.24.x and 0.25.x where we moved from
> XMLRPC to REST.
>
> How do people feel about us dropping all XMLRPC support from 2.7.x,
> such that it only supported Puppet clients 0.25.x and higher?
+1 to dropping .24 and 2.7 interoperability. I don''t recall running
mismatched client/server ever being a suggested setup. How many sites
out there are actually running .24 with 2.6, or even .25, as a stable
setup?

People seem to be conflating legacy support with interversion
compatibility. From the Puppet Enterprise announcement I thought it
was clear there was a path for LTS type support.

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Personally I kinda hope that Puppet can change the versioning system.  So 
that it is easier to know which version is major and which minor.
As far as how far back support should go, I would say that client/server 
should be at least 1 major version behind.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Nigel Kersten" <nigel@puppetlabs.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 8:47 AM
To: <puppet-users@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Puppet Users] Thoughts on dropping 0.24.x client support in 
Puppet 2.7?
> On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 7:34 AM, Klaus Ethgen
<Klaus+puppet@ethgen.de>
> wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA512
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Am Do den 25. Nov 2010 um 15:04 schrieb Thomas Bendler:
>>> 2010/11/25 Klaus Ethgen <Klaus+puppet@ethgen.de 
>>> <Klaus%2Bpuppet@ethgen.de>>
>>>
>>> > [...]
>>> > There are many distributions out there providing 0.24 version
only.
>>> > And
>>> > as the use of puppet is to manage many distributions, even the
>>> > antiquated »enterprise« distributions, I think that dropping
support
>>> > for
>>> > version lower than 0.25 is not that good idea.
>>> > [...]
>>> >
>>>
>>> But on this distributions you normaly use also the old server
variant,
>>
>> No. That is the problem. The old versions had have big problems and
>> normally you have the master on recent system but all the old machines
>> installed with old versions.
>
> Ok, lets take that as a requirement.
>
> If we take the position that at some point we''re going to have to
> declare we only support clients of a certain vintage, what would be a
> reasonable version to drop client support for?
>
>>> And if you make you''re own repository with actual puppet
rpms you
>>> should upgrade the client as well I would assume.
>>
>> That would be a point. But that issue is a big issue if you have to
hold
>> many distributions up2date. And this is also a political problem to
tell
>> the management that you need new version of a package if the
>> distribution has it (management doesn''t care about the version
of
>> software unless they have to use it).
>
> So they care about your clients but not your servers? Why are they 
> different?
>
>
>>
>> Regards
>>   Klaus
>> - --
>> Klaus Ethgen                            http://www.ethgen.de/
>> pub  2048R/D1A4EDE5 2000-02-26 Klaus Ethgen <Klaus@Ethgen.de>
>> Fingerprint: D7 67 71 C4 99 A6 D4 FE  EA 40 30 57 3C 88 26 2B
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>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
>> --
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Groups
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>>
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Nigel Kersten - Puppet Labs -  http://www.puppetlabs.com
>
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Hiho,

Am Do den 25. Nov 2010 um 16:47 schrieb Nigel Kersten:
> If we take the position that at some point we''re going to have to
> declare we only support clients of a certain vintage, what would be a
> reasonable version to drop client support for?
I think that it would be a good idea to look what versions the current
distributions bring as default. I will make a list in the next days.
> So they care about your clients but not your servers? Why are they
different?
Don''t ask about when management is involved. They have complete other
logic than normal peopl^Wtechis.

Regards
   Klaus
- -- 
Klaus Ethgen                            http://www.ethgen.de/
pub  2048R/D1A4EDE5 2000-02-26 Klaus Ethgen <Klaus@Ethgen.de>
Fingerprint: D7 67 71 C4 99 A6 D4 FE  EA 40 30 57 3C 88 26 2B
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On Nov 26, 2:47 am, Nigel Kersten <ni...@puppetlabs.com>
wrote:
> So they care about your clients but not your servers? Why are they
different?
Because the clients are customer facing, and the servers are not.
Different outage windows, different change control, different standard
operating environments.

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Marek Dohojda wrote:
> Personally I kinda hope that Puppet can change the versioning system.  So 
> that it is easier to know which version is major and which minor.
> As far as how far back support should go, I would say that client/server 
> should be at least 1 major version behind.
> 
Can you elaborate on what you mean here?  Versions are x.x.x.  Major
version is 2, minor version is 2.x and 2.6.x is the maintenance version.

Regards

James

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On Nov 25, 2010, at 07:43 , Patrick wrote:
> On Nov 24, 2010, at 3:50 PM, Nigel Kersten wrote:
> I mentioned this in an earlier thread, but here''s a dedicated one.
>> 
>> We made a big change between 0.24.x and 0.25.x where we moved from
>> XMLRPC to REST.
>> 
>> How do people feel about us dropping all XMLRPC support from 2.7.x,
>> such that it only supported Puppet clients 0.25.x and higher?
> 
> I don''t need it, but at the very least, I think that doing that
before Debian stable picks up 0.25.x is probably a terrible idea.
Guys, I''m a bit confused ... Debian/stable won''t pick up
0.25.x
anymore anyways.

A list of Puppet versions in Debian:

lenny (stable): 0.24.5-3
backports:	2.6.2-1~bpo50+1
squeeze: 	2.6.2-1
sid:  		2.6.2-2
experimental:   2.6.3-1

So the upcoming stable release will at least include 2.6.2. I''m
not sure yet, whether they will even be trying to get 2.6.3 into
squeeze, since they also got 2.6.2 into it after the official
freeze.

So if you are still running lenny boxes as soon as 2.7 will be out
and you are going to mix *lenny* puppet agents with *sid* puppet
masters you could still use the 2.6.2 packages which are already
in backports.


Basically, at least for Debian, I see no reason why it would be a
bad idea for Puppetlabs to drop the support for pre 0.25.x
clients.


Regards,

Stefan.

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