Puppet users - Apr 2009 - Support Expectations (was: Licensing and Copyright)

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 2:48 PM, Andrew Shafer <andrew@reductivelabs.com>
wrote:
> I''ve been on both sides of this equation many times and my
experience has
> always been that every intermediary in the communication loses/distorts
> information, so if I really want something to be fixed the best strategy
> always seemed to be provide the best possible report with clear steps to
> reproduce the issue.
I think what you''re saying happens quite a bit.  It depends a lot on
the quality of the support and the patience and thoroughness of the
person who is reporting the problem.

If I''m paying for support for a product, I want to have my cake and
eat it too.  That is, I don''t want to be the one tracking down bugs,
and I also want the supporting party to track down the bugs and get
them fixed as soon as possible.

> What are your expectations for support? Have you ever had support from
> Oracle(replace with enterprise software company of your choice)? Did that
> put an upper bound on the amount of time your staff had to spend working on
> anything?
My expectations for support are that when I encounter problems, I will
have someone I can go to for expert advice.  9 times out of 10,
there''s an expert way around or out of the problem.  Very rarely is
there an actual bug that needs to be fixed with a code change.  In any
case, when I call, I want a solution or a work around immediately.
That may not always happen, but from that point on, the ball''s in the
vendor''s court, and I''ve always got other things that I can be
doing.

Support is really like an insurance policy though. You have a product,
and there are core requirements it needs to achieve.  Once you''ve
plunked down the money to acquire it and the grace period is over if
it stops working it needs to start working again.  That support
contract is how you ensure that if it stops, it won''t stay stopped.

I''ve never had support from Oracle.  Biggest organization I''ve
ever
purchased support from is CommVault.  I''ve had support from my
organization''s enterprise-IT department (of which I am not a part).
We''ve got a realtime OS developed by a one person firm, and he has a
support contract which we renew yearly, even though there''s probably
been just one bug we''ve found in the last 5 years.  We''ve got
hardware
support on most of the things we buy.

We''ll take support for things that are vital to our ability to
operate, because ... they''re vital.  I think the best analogy is to
replace "support contract" with "insurance policy".

> I want to explore this topic so Reductive Labs can provide the most
valuable
> support possible by understanding everyone''s expectations and
motivations.
I think its a great topic, and I''m trying to respond as honestly as
possible.

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On Apr 7, 2009, at 4:30 PM, Michael Semcheski wrote:
>
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 2:48 PM, Andrew Shafer <andrew@reductivelabs.com 
> > wrote:
>> I''ve been on both sides of this equation many times and my  
>> experience has
>> always been that every intermediary in the communication loses/ 
>> distorts
>> information, so if I really want something to be fixed the best  
>> strategy
>> always seemed to be provide the best possible report with clear  
>> steps to
>> reproduce the issue.
>
> I think what you''re saying happens quite a bit.  It depends a lot
on
> the quality of the support and the patience and thoroughness of the
> person who is reporting the problem.
>
> If I''m paying for support for a product, I want to have my cake
and
> eat it too.  That is, I don''t want to be the one tracking down
bugs,
> and I also want the supporting party to track down the bugs and get
> them fixed as soon as possible.
I think this is reasonable, and generally this is what we offer for  
support, but it''s often essentially impossible to track down a bug  
without some involvement from the support customer.

We''re still in the process of figuring out exactly what people expect  
and want and how best to provide it, but it''s certainly our assumption
that we should file the bugs and we should do as much work as we can  
to discover and resolve them.
>
>> What are your expectations for support? Have you ever had support  
>> from
>> Oracle(replace with enterprise software company of your choice)?  
>> Did that
>> put an upper bound on the amount of time your staff had to spend  
>> working on
>> anything?
>
> My expectations for support are that when I encounter problems, I will
> have someone I can go to for expert advice.  9 times out of 10,
> there''s an expert way around or out of the problem.  Very rarely
is
> there an actual bug that needs to be fixed with a code change.  In any
> case, when I call, I want a solution or a work around immediately.
> That may not always happen, but from that point on, the ball''s in
the
> vendor''s court, and I''ve always got other things that I
can be doing.
>
> Support is really like an insurance policy though. You have a product,
> and there are core requirements it needs to achieve.  Once you''ve
> plunked down the money to acquire it and the grace period is over if
> it stops working it needs to start working again.  That support
> contract is how you ensure that if it stops, it won''t stay
stopped.
I think these are normal and reasonable support expectations, although  
my own experiences are that they''re rarely provided.  We are doing  
well at it so far, I think, though.
>
> I''ve never had support from Oracle.  Biggest organization
I''ve ever
> purchased support from is CommVault.  I''ve had support from my
> organization''s enterprise-IT department (of which I am not a
part).
> We''ve got a realtime OS developed by a one person firm, and he has
a
> support contract which we renew yearly, even though there''s
probably
> been just one bug we''ve found in the last 5 years.  We''ve
got hardware
> support on most of the things we buy.
>
> We''ll take support for things that are vital to our ability to
> operate, because ... they''re vital.  I think the best analogy is
to
> replace "support contract" with "insurance policy".
>
>
>> I want to explore this topic so Reductive Labs can provide the most  
>> valuable
>> support possible by understanding everyone''s expectations and
>> motivations.
>
> I think its a great topic, and I''m trying to respond as honestly
as
> possible.
And we appreciate it, but so far, you''ve been quite reasonable. :)

-- 
Write a wise saying and your name will live forever.
     -- Anonymous
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A few things I expect/want from support:

   - Upgrade path that includes just bug fixes -- never any new features or
   other changes. Long term support for this.
   - Support during European working hours, ideally, support 24/7.
   - Ability to report and track bug progress online.
   - Ability to report bugs by email or phone.
   - Once-a-year-or-so contact from the reseller or vendor to ask how
we''re
   getting on with the product, make sure we using all the features, talk about
   roadmap and so on.
   - Good product documentation.
   - Access to good consultancy or training support if required (and
I''d
   expect to pay extra for that);
   - No bugs  ;)

Gary


-- 
Gary Law
Email: garylaw@garylaw.net
Chat googletalk/messenger: gary.law@gmail.com
iChat/jabber/AIM: gary.law@mac.com

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2009/4/9 Gary Law <gary.law@gmail.com>
>
>    - Good product documentation.
>    - Access to good consultancy or training support if required (and
I''d
>    expect to pay extra for that);
>
> Gary
>
>
> --
> Gary Law
> Email: garylaw@garylaw.net
> Chat googletalk/messenger: gary.law@gmail.com
> iChat/jabber/AIM: gary.law@mac.com
>
I''d second these two, good up to date documentation is a must - I would
not
expect to have to go through the time and expense of raising a support call
when the ''workaround / feature / undocumented how to'' should
be in the
documentation in the first place.  I also think consultancy at good rates
would be a no-brainer - Most companies don''t have the time, resource,
or
expertise to learn/implement a new tool.

Matt

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I am always looking for feedback on the current documentation.  Teyo  
and I are also going to be revamping the current wiki so feel free to  
ping me on or off list about ideas and requirements and offers to  
help. The latter will obviously get you more kudos and is good karma  
too. I buy drinks too.

Regards

James Turnbull

On 09/04/2009, at 8:02 PM, Matt <mattmoran76@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> 2009/4/9 Gary Law <gary.law@gmail.com>
> Good product documentation.
> Access to good consultancy or training support if required (and
I''d
> expect to pay extra for that);
> Gary
>
>
> -- 
> Gary Law
> Email: garylaw@garylaw.net
> Chat googletalk/messenger: gary.law@gmail.com
> iChat/jabber/AIM: gary.law@mac.com
>
> I''d second these two, good up to date documentation is a must - I
> would not expect to have to go through the time and expense of  
> raising a support call when the ''workaround / feature /
undocumented
> how to'' should be in the documentation in the first place.  I also
> think consultancy at good rates would be a no-brainer - Most  
> companies don''t have the time, resource, or expertise to learn/ 
> implement a new tool.
>
> Matt
>
> >
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>   I also think consultancy at good rates would be a no-brainer -  
> Most companies don''t have the time, resource, or expertise to
learn/
> implement a new tool.
What''s considered good rates?

-L

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UK here - I would say 500 - 800GBP/day

I think puppet is one of those implementations where a consultant/trainer
can be highly effective from day one (results can be fast and highly
visible), so could be seen as good value for money.

2009/4/10 Larry Ludwig <larry@reductivelabs.com>
>
> >   I also think consultancy at good rates would be a no-brainer -
> > Most companies don''t have the time, resource, or expertise to
learn/
> > implement a new tool.
>
> What''s considered good rates?
>
> -L
>
> >
>
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(Slow replies, as always.)

On Apr 9, 2009, at 5:08 AM, Gary Law wrote:
> A few things I expect/want from support:
> 	• Upgrade path that includes just bug fixes -- never any new  
> features or other changes. Long term support for this.
We''ve not been good about this, but we''re working on this
being a
policy.  At the least, once 0.25 comes all, all release in a given X.Y  
branch will be bugfix-only, no new features.
>
> 	• Support during European working hours, ideally, support 24/7.
No one''s ever actually asked me for European hours support,  
surprisingly, and while I''ve been asked about 24/7 it''s always
been
more of a theoretical conversation rather than "and here''s how
much
I''d pay for it".
>
> 	• Ability to report and track bug progress online.
I think we''ve got that.
>
> 	• Ability to report bugs by email or phone.
Yep.
>
> 	• Once-a-year-or-so contact from the reseller or vendor to ask how  
> we''re getting on with the product, make sure we using all the  
> features, talk about roadmap and so on.
We''re currently trying to do that monthly, but I expect it''ll
drop
back to quarterly once we get a better handle on what people want.
>
> 	• Good product documentation.
Heh, well, ahem, James is doing great on that. :)

I actually think the Redmine Roadmap feature is pretty good at  
maintaining what''s gone in and out of a release, but that does need to
be processed into an UPGRADE not for each release.  I think James has  
also been doing a great job there, but we haven''t done as well  
managing that at Reductive Labs as we should.  We''ll take note and do  
better.
> 	• Access to good consultancy or training support if required (and  
> I''d expect to pay extra for that);
Yep, got that, and people seem really happy with it.
> 	• No bugs  ;)
Erm, yeah, I promise, no bugs.

Err, wait, why would I do that?  You wouldn''t need any support then. :)

-- 
Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it
flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come.
     --Matt Groening
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