Puppet users - Mar 2009 - Re: Installing 0.24.8 as gem (or deb?) on Debian

When can we expect the 0.24.8 debs to be out?

It doesn''t quite seem ideal for so many people to be building their
own...

On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 6:49 AM, Ryan Steele <Ryan.G.Steele@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> On Mar 27, 9:33 am, Kyle Cordes <k...@kylecordes.com> wrote:
>> Kyle Cordes wrote:
>> >> Apply the .diff
>> Ryan Steele wrote:
>> > I didn''t have to download any diffs.  Here''s
what I did:
>> > 2.  Grab the debian directory for 0.24.7 from git (git clone
>> > git://git.debian.org/git/pkg-puppet/puppet.git) and put it in the
0.24.7
>> > source tree.
>>
>> Ah. That diff I applied, did the same as this.
>>
>> > 4.  run ''uupdate -u puppet-0.24.8.tgz'', and then
cd into the newly
>> > created 0.24.8 source tree
>>
>> Every time I touch this stuff I learn something new.  For example, just
>> this second I learned (from your message) of the existence of
"uupdate".
>>   I''ll give it a try next time I need to update a Debian
package to a
>> newer upstream version.
>
> Yeah, it''s handy for sure.  Although, it doesn''t work
when there are
> sufficiently complex diff''s.  Luckily, it''s always worked
for Puppet
> on my end.  The Debian New Maintainers'' Guide has a blurb about
it:
> http://www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/ch-update.en.html
>
> Glad to have imparted the knowledge unto others that was once imparted
> unto me.  :)
> >
>


-- 
Nigel Kersten
nigelk@google.com
System Administrator
Google, Inc.

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Nigel Kersten wrote:
> When can we expect the 0.24.8 debs to be out?
Depends on your distribution and the release you''re running.  If you 
need it sooner than your distribution is going to work it in to your 
current release, your options are either to backport it or create your 
own.  With Debian, the tradeoff for rock solid stability is a slower 
release cycle and thus older packages.  Even with Ubuntu, you still have 
a bit of a delay, and if you want more bleeding edge .debs, your options 
are either a PPA, backporting, or creating your own.

> It doesn''t quite seem ideal for so many people to be building
their own...
If you always want to run bleeding edge stuff on Debian or Ubuntu, your 
choices are that, backporting, or PPA''s, even if you''re using
the most
experimental repositories.  It''s just the way of the world.  If
that''s
not something you''re ready to deal with, you can do something crazy
like
run Gentoo.  :)

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Ryan Steele wrote:
> a bit of a delay, and if you want more bleeding edge .debs, your options 
> are either a PPA, backporting, or creating your own.
There is a better option, available for some projects: have either the 
project itself, or some kind soul who uses the same project and distro 
as you do, quickly publish updated packages for each new version. 
There''s noone doing that yet for Puppet+Debian.

I''d do this my Puppet on Debian/Ubunty, but I consider myself barely 
familiar enough with Debian packaging to make them for my own 
consumption, it would be reckless to unleash them on others. Yet.

(Most ideally, the build process for the project itself spits out 
packages for the most popular N distro and publishes them as part of 
nightly builds or whatever, for those who want to list dangerously.)

-- 
Kyle Cordes
http://kylecordes.com

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Kyle Cordes wrote:
> Ryan Steele wrote:
> 
>> a bit of a delay, and if you want more bleeding edge .debs, your
options
>> are either a PPA, backporting, or creating your own.
> 
> There is a better option, available for some projects: have either the 
> project itself, or some kind soul who uses the same project and distro 
> as you do, quickly publish updated packages for each new version. 
> There''s noone doing that yet for Puppet+Debian.
> 
> I''d do this my Puppet on Debian/Ubunty, but I consider myself
barely
> familiar enough with Debian packaging to make them for my own 
> consumption, it would be reckless to unleash them on others. Yet.
> 
> (Most ideally, the build process for the project itself spits out 
> packages for the most popular N distro and publishes them as part of 
> nightly builds or whatever, for those who want to list dangerously.)
> 
I''m happy to do this for Ubuntu, if I have Luke''s blessing. 
I''ll talk
to my employer and see if they''re willing to host a PPA that can be 
linked to from the Puppet wiki.

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Ryan Steele <ryan.g.steele@gmail.com> writes:
> Depends on your distribution and the release you''re running.  If
you
> need it sooner than your distribution is going to work it in to your
> current release, your options are either to backport it or create your
> own.  With Debian, the tradeoff for rock solid stability is a slower
> release cycle and thus older packages.
Er, given that you can just install the Debian Puppet packages from
unstable, this doesn''t make any sense to me.  There''s no
release delay in
getting new Puppet packages into Debian, just someone having the time to
do the work.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)             <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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Ryan Steele <ryan.g.steele@gmail.com> writes:
> I''m happy to do this for Ubuntu, if I have Luke''s
blessing.  I''ll talk
> to my employer and see if they''re willing to host a PPA that can
be
> linked to from the Puppet wiki.
Please join the pkg-puppet group and help them prepare the packages rather
than doing this.  Otherwise, you''re just duplicating effort.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)             <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Ryan Steele <ryan.g.steele@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Nigel Kersten wrote:
>> When can we expect the 0.24.8 debs to be out?
>
> Depends on your distribution and the release you''re running.  If
you
> need it sooner than your distribution is going to work it in to your
> current release, your options are either to backport it or create your
> own.  With Debian, the tradeoff for rock solid stability is a slower
> release cycle and thus older packages.  Even with Ubuntu, you still have
> a bit of a delay, and if you want more bleeding edge .debs, your options
> are either a PPA, backporting, or creating your own.
Yeah. I didn''t mean that to be interpreted as "when will it hit
stable
''foo''" but more, when will the first debs hit
experimental so we can
backport/PPA/etc.

I''d personally like to see there be a focus on getting the most recent
Puppet packages into the Debian/Ubuntu backport repositories.
>
>
>> It doesn''t quite seem ideal for so many people to be building
their own...
>
> If you always want to run bleeding edge stuff on Debian or Ubuntu, your
> choices are that, backporting, or PPA''s, even if you''re
using the most
> experimental repositories.  It''s just the way of the world.  If
that''s
> not something you''re ready to deal with, you can do something
crazy like
> run Gentoo.  :)
Sure, but there''s no reason why we all have to backport manually when
we have distro specific backport repositories already.... :)

If there''s a need for more eyes/help on the Debian/Ubuntu side, we
already have one team member at Google who is a Debian maintainer and
we''d like to get all of our Puppet requirements into the distro
backports, whether we do that work or others do, it just seems like
the right way to go.

-- 
Nigel Kersten
nigelk@google.com
System Administrator
Google, Inc.

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Nigel Kersten wrote:
> I''d personally like to see there be a focus on getting the most
recent
> Puppet packages into the Debian/Ubuntu backport repositories.
I think we''d all (here) like that.

Sadly, I''ve concluded from various past experiences that, on average, 
only the most popular packages are prone to prompt updates for new 
upstream versions. Backports to not-the-current-distro are even more 
rare, for various good reasons.

Therefore, when adopting something less widely used, especially if I 
need the same (current) package version for various distro versions,
I''m
resigned to having to either package it myself, or find someone "out 
there" offering updated packages.


Example #1: Puppet


Example #2: udpcast

Udpcast is an extremely useful tool, both for cloning systems en masse, 
and for totally unrelated uses like the one I describe here:

http://kylecordes.com/2008/10/21/multicast-your-db-backups-with-udpcast/

Yet the version in the very latest Ubuntu is from 2004:

http://packages.ubuntu.com/jaunty/udpcast

(the same for Debian.)


Example #3: Zabbix

To get good results with Zabbix, it''s necessary to have approximately 
the same, approximately current versions, on all machines. The versions 
in various current and past Ubuntu and Debian releases / backports are 
not even close.


-- 
Kyle Cordes
http://kylecordes.com

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On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 9:29 PM, Kyle Cordes <kyle@kylecordes.com>
wrote:
>
> Nigel Kersten wrote:
>> I''d personally like to see there be a focus on getting the
most recent
>> Puppet packages into the Debian/Ubuntu backport repositories.
>
> I think we''d all (here) like that.
>
> Sadly, I''ve concluded from various past experiences that, on
average,
> only the most popular packages are prone to prompt updates for new
> upstream versions. Backports to not-the-current-distro are even more
> rare, for various good reasons.
Backports of server products to the last LTS release in Ubuntu should
be something we can get done and I''m keen to push on trying to get
that going.


>
> Therefore, when adopting something less widely used, especially if I
> need the same (current) package version for various distro versions,
I''m
> resigned to having to either package it myself, or find someone "out
> there" offering updated packages.
Particularly given how a standard Puppet environment has reasonably
loose requirements, I reckon we can do better than this as a community
:)

>
>
> Example #1: Puppet
>
>
> Example #2: udpcast
>
> Udpcast is an extremely useful tool, both for cloning systems en masse,
> and for totally unrelated uses like the one I describe here:
>
> http://kylecordes.com/2008/10/21/multicast-your-db-backups-with-udpcast/
>
> Yet the version in the very latest Ubuntu is from 2004:
>
> http://packages.ubuntu.com/jaunty/udpcast
>
> (the same for Debian.)
>
>
> Example #3: Zabbix
>
> To get good results with Zabbix, it''s necessary to have
approximately
> the same, approximately current versions, on all machines. The versions
> in various current and past Ubuntu and Debian releases / backports are
> not even close.
>
>
> --
> Kyle Cordes
> http://kylecordes.com
>
> >
>


-- 
Nigel Kersten
nigelk@google.com
System Administrator
Google, Inc.

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On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 08:02:24 -0700, Nigel Kersten <nigelk@google.com>
wrote:
> Backports of server products to the last LTS release in Ubuntu should
> be something we can get done and I''m keen to push on trying to get
> that going.
Nigel

Happy to help too.

James Turnbull


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On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 4:34 PM, James Turnbull <james@lovedthanlost.net>
wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 08:02:24 -0700, Nigel Kersten <nigelk@google.com>
> wrote:
>> Backports of server products to the last LTS release in Ubuntu should
>> be something we can get done and I''m keen to push on trying to
get
>> that going.
>
> Nigel
>
> Happy to help too.

First we need to get a 0.24.8 deb created :)

Is there anything I can do to help this process along? I''d just rather
not head down the path of building our own debs again...

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