Hi all, Not sure if you have seen this or not but Puppet is in the news again. http://www.linux.com/feature/143893 -- Mick Pollard <lists@lunix.com.au> --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Puppet Users" group. To post to this group, send email to puppet-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to puppet-users+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/puppet-users?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Mick Pollard <lists@lunix.com.au> wrote:> > > Hi all, > > Not sure if you have seen this or not but Puppet is in the news again. > http://www.linux.com/feature/143893 > > -- > Mick Pollard <lists@lunix.com.au> > > > >Good right up. This quote is an excellent description fo the most common problem I have seen/encountered with people new to puppet (me included) "The language used by Puppet is its biggest strength and also its biggest weakness -- having to learn a new language and way of doing things creates a learning curve during adoption. The abstraction of classes and resources in Puppet also work against it initially because most system administrators are used to creating and executing bash scripts to perform system administration. The need to learn a new language to perform tasks when you already implicitly think of how they should be done "by SSHing in" presents a barrier to adoption for Puppet." Evan --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Puppet Users" group. To post to this group, send email to puppet-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to puppet-users+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/puppet-users?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
--On Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:07:40 PM -0500 Evan Hisey <ehisey@gmail.com> wrote:> "The language used by Puppet is its biggest strength and also its > biggest weakness -- having to learn a new language and way of doing > things creates a learning curve during adoption. The abstraction of > classes and resources in Puppet also work against it initially because > most system administrators are used to creating and executing bash > scripts to perform system administration. The need to learn a new > language to perform tasks when you already implicitly think of how > they should be done "by SSHing in" presents a barrier to adoption for > Puppet.This is also why so many people want to see new features in Puppet because they aren''t wrapping their heads around the "Puppet way" of doing things. But once you get over that hump, I think Puppet really starts to come through. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Puppet Users" group. To post to this group, send email to puppet-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to puppet-users+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/puppet-users?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
It''s my first week using puppet, and I think that getting used to the puppet way is what I want to do. The learning curve isn''t really a barrier -- as a new user, I''m used to learning new tools. So far it doesn''t seem much harder than setting up Nagios. It seems easier than learning Oracle and Java app servers. The declarative configuration is a little new. Somehow not much has shown up on google searches about people with similar conceptual changes. The git samples on the wiki are great. All the blogs you are doing are great. The puppet book is great. More getting started docs, tutorials, walkthroughs would be good. More "here''s how I got all my OSX, Solaris, and Gentoo boxes running the same version of GNU grep"... Dave -----Original Message----- From: puppet-users@googlegroups.com [mailto:puppet-users@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Digant C Kasundra Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 1:48 PM To: puppet-users@googlegroups.com Subject: [Puppet Users] Re: puppet in the news --On Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:07:40 PM -0500 Evan Hisey <ehisey@gmail.com> wrote:> "The language used by Puppet is its biggest strength and also its > biggest weakness -- having to learn a new language and way of doing > things creates a learning curve during adoption. The abstraction of > classes and resources in Puppet also work against it initially because > most system administrators are used to creating and executing bash > scripts to perform system administration. The need to learn a new > language to perform tasks when you already implicitly think of how > they should be done "by SSHing in" presents a barrier to adoption for > Puppet.This is also why so many people want to see new features in Puppet because they aren''t wrapping their heads around the "Puppet way" of doing things. But once you get over that hump, I think Puppet really starts to come through. ********************************************************************** This communication is confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you believe this message has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying to this transmission and delete the message without disclosing it. Thank you. E-mail including attachments is susceptible to data corruption, interception, unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any consequences thereof. This email, its content and any attachments is PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL to TANDBERG Television, Part of the Ericsson Group. www.tandbergtv.com ********************************************************************** --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Puppet Users" group. To post to this group, send email to puppet-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to puppet-users+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/puppet-users?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Mick Pollard wrote:> > Hi all, > > Not sure if you have seen this or not but Puppet is in the news again. > http://www.linux.com/feature/143893Thanks for that! Added to the wiki: http://reductivelabs.com/trac/puppet/wiki/Publications Anyone feel free to add any additional articles they find! Cheers James Turnbull -- Author of: * Pulling Strings with Puppet (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590599780/) * Pro Nagios 2.0 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590596099/) * Hardening Linux (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590594444/)
Evan Hisey schrieb:> On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Mick Pollard <lists@lunix.com.au> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> Not sure if you have seen this or not but Puppet is in the news again. >> http://www.linux.com/feature/143893 >> >> -- >> Mick Pollard <lists@lunix.com.au> >> > Good right up. This quote is an excellent description fo the most > common problem I have seen/encountered with people new to puppet (me > included) > > "The language used by Puppet is its biggest strength and also its > biggest weakness -- having to learn a new language and way of doing > things creates a learning curve during adoption. The abstraction of > classes and resources in Puppet also work against it initially because > most system administrators are used to creating and executing bash > scripts to perform system administration. The need to learn a new > language to perform tasks when you already implicitly think of how > they should be done "by SSHing in" presents a barrier to adoption for > Puppet."Sorry, Evan, but thinking about how to solve something "by SSHing in" makes you part of the problem, not part of the solution, imho. Things done manually are undocumented, unrepeatable, unchecked and unguarded. Regards, DavidS --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Puppet Users" group. To post to this group, send email to puppet-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to puppet-users+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/puppet-users?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
>>> >> Good right up. This quote is an excellent description fo the most >> common problem I have seen/encountered with people new to puppet (me >> included) >> >> "The language used by Puppet is its biggest strength and also its >> biggest weakness -- having to learn a new language and way of doing >> things creates a learning curve during adoption. The abstraction of >> classes and resources in Puppet also work against it initially because >> most system administrators are used to creating and executing bash >> scripts to perform system administration. The need to learn a new >> language to perform tasks when you already implicitly think of how >> they should be done "by SSHing in" presents a barrier to adoption for >> Puppet." > > Sorry, Evan, but thinking about how to solve something "by SSHing in" > makes you part of the problem, not part of the solution, imho. Things > done manually are undocumented, unrepeatable, unchecked and unguarded. >David, that was kind of my point, once I quite thinking that way and start to think in puppe''ts terms then it all worked better. Many if not most sysadmins moving to puppet or its elk for the first time _will_ tend to still be thinking in terms of "SSHing in". Puppet and good SCM/CCM systems don''t think that way. It was nice to have that pointed out in the article instead of getting blasted about puppet being hard to use because it did not work that way. As an side, "by SSHing in" can also refer to scripted tasks that also use ssh as the remote access method. My previous custom built automated system did this. IT was a completely scripted repeatable deployment and change system based on the "by SSHing in" mentality. I left it, for puppet because it was hitting a size that was difficult for one person to maintain. The difficulty factor exceeded the pain factor of learning a new way of doing things. Now I wish I had moved sooner. Evan --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Puppet Users" group. To post to this group, send email to puppet-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to puppet-users+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/puppet-users?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Evan Hisey <ehisey@gmail.com> wrote:> >>>> >>> Good right up. This quote is an excellent description fo the most >>> common problem I have seen/encountered with people new to puppet (me >>> included) >>> >>> "The language used by Puppet is its biggest strength and also its >>> biggest weakness -- having to learn a new language and way of doing >>> things creates a learning curve during adoption. The abstraction of >>> classes and resources in Puppet also work against it initially because >>> most system administrators are used to creating and executing bash >>> scripts to perform system administration. The need to learn a new >>> language to perform tasks when you already implicitly think of how >>> they should be done "by SSHing in" presents a barrier to adoption for >>> Puppet." >> >> Sorry, Evan, but thinking about how to solve something "by SSHing in" >> makes you part of the problem, not part of the solution, imho. Things >> done manually are undocumented, unrepeatable, unchecked and unguarded. >> > David, that was kind of my point, once I quite thinking that way and > start to think in puppe''ts terms then it all worked better. Many if > not most sysadmins moving to puppet or its elk for the first time > _will_ tend to still be thinking in terms of "SSHing in". Puppet and > good SCM/CCM systems don''t think that way. It was nice to have that > pointed out in the article instead of getting blasted about puppet > being hard to use because it did not work that way. > > As an side, "by SSHing in" can also refer to scripted tasks that also > use ssh as the remote access method. My previous custom built > automated system did this. IT was a completely scripted repeatable > deployment and change system based on the "by SSHing in" mentality. I > left it, for puppet because it was hitting a size that was difficult > for one person to maintain. The difficulty factor exceeded the pain > factor of learning a new way of doing things. Now I wish I had moved > sooner.As an example, Capistrano, is a mashup of rake, ssh and revision control (svn/git/darks/mercurial). So it allows the SSH method to gain the benefits of good SCM/CCM options. I think though the key thing about frameworks like puppet, are that the focus changes from describing the tasks and enabling tasks to describing the final state, and not worrying about the distribution methods or tasks involved to get to that state. (ideally) Automated SSH scripting can enable what Puppet does, using cron and lot''s of hand rolled code. That''s sorta how I used to do it. Cheers, Brian P.S. - SSH is nothing more than a protocol. A system like puppet could be designed that uses ssh/sftp as a transport mechanism. (Rather than http).> > Evan > > > >-- - Brian Gupta http://opensolaris.org/os/project/nycosug/ http://www.genunix.org/wiki/index.php/OpenSolaris_New_User_FAQ --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Puppet Users" group. To post to this group, send email to puppet-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to puppet-users+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/puppet-users?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---