Puppet users - Mar 2008 - UPGRADE/DEPRECATED/ROADMAP document

The UPGRADE document does a great job of listing the history, however
I would like a bit more information on the future of Puppet.
Specifically, I want to know about things that have been or are going
to be deprecated.

As I''m running Debian Etch and it includes Puppet v0.20.1 I am a
little behind the current version of Puppet.  I can''t really upgrade
to a more current version without breaking my platform but at the same
time I don''t really want to use something that will be disabled in
future versions if I can help it.  Things like libdir going away are
buried in the middle of the document and extremely hard to find.  If
we could have a list of deprecated things and/or a map of the future
it would be very helpful.

Thanx!
  Richard
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Richard wrote:
| The UPGRADE document does a great job of listing the history, however
| I would like a bit more information on the future of Puppet.
| Specifically, I want to know about things that have been or are going
| to be deprecated.
|
| As I''m running Debian Etch and it includes Puppet v0.20.1 I am a
| little behind the current version of Puppet.  I can''t really upgrade
| to a more current version without breaking my platform but at the same
| time I don''t really want to use something that will be disabled in
| future versions if I can help it.  Things like libdir going away are
| buried in the middle of the document and extremely hard to find.  If
| we could have a list of deprecated things and/or a map of the future
| it would be very helpful.

Richard

The wiki is open for anyone to edit.  I don''t intend to do more than
keep the UPGRADE document up to date.

Please feel free to add a deprecated features list.

Regards

James Turnbull

- --
James Turnbull (james@lovedthanlost.net)
- --
Author of:
- - Pulling Strings with Puppet
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590599780/)
- - Pro Nagios 2.0
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590596099/)
- - Hardening Linux
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590594444/)

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On Mar 31, 2008, at 3:33 PM, James Turnbull wrote:
> Richard
>
> The wiki is open for anyone to edit.  I don''t intend to do more
than
> keep the UPGRADE document up to date.
>
> Please feel free to add a deprecated features list.

I''ll do my best to get a Roadmap doc written, with one caveat:

Docs that don''t get read and discussed get abandoned.  So far, all of  
my attempts at maintaining docs like this have been roundly ignored.

If you want good documentation, it''s your responsibility as the  
interested party to help guarantee documentation quality[1].  This is  
doubly so when it comes to developer documentation, which the Roadmap  
will inevitably resemble -- if the dev docs are wrong and no one  
notices or cares, I''m not going to bother to fix them.

In general, I do *much* better when I can provide pertinent  
information to an interested party who then produces the  
documentation.  Feel free to call me a quitter and a bad project  
maintainer; to me, it''s just reality.  Writing documentation is like  
pulling teeth to me.  I know it''s not supposed to be, but it feels too
much like something that the stupid computer should be able to do, and  
that kind of thing always raises my blood pressure and causes  
spontaneous bouts of drinking and shouting.

1 - Paying customers need only express a need for docs; part of what  
they''re paying me for is a promise of quality documentation where they
need it.

-- 
A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in
human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila.
     -- Mitch Ratcliffe
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Luke Kanies | http://reductivelabs.com | http://madstop.com


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On Mar 31, 2008, at 8:41 AM, Richard wrote:
>
> The UPGRADE document does a great job of listing the history, however
> I would like a bit more information on the future of Puppet.
> Specifically, I want to know about things that have been or are going
> to be deprecated.
>
> As I''m running Debian Etch and it includes Puppet v0.20.1 I am a
> little behind the current version of Puppet.  I can''t really
upgrade
> to a more current version without breaking my platform but at the same
> time I don''t really want to use something that will be disabled in
> future versions if I can help it.  Things like libdir going away are
> buried in the middle of the document and extremely hard to find.  If
> we could have a list of deprecated things and/or a map of the future
> it would be very helpful.
I''ve built a first version of a Roadmap:

http://reductivelabs.com/trac/puppet/wiki/RoadMap

I don''t know where the all-caps thing came from, but, uh, I''m
not
going to continue it.  Maybe it''s from the files at the root of the  
repo?  Those should probably be changed, although some of them are  
pointed to by web sites and such.

There are no mentions of deprecations in this document.  In fact, it''s
really just a quick dash of what''s in my head.  Hopefully I''ll
add
things as I think of them, but, well, who knows?

If someone has a good idea of how to maintain deprecations, please let  
me know.

-- 
Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but, unlike charity, it
should end there. --Clare Booth Luce
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Luke Kanies | http://reductivelabs.com | http://madstop.com


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On Mar 31, 2008, at 8:00 PM, Luke Kanies wrote:
>
> On Mar 31, 2008, at 8:41 AM, Richard wrote:
>
>>
>> The UPGRADE document does a great job of listing the history, however
>> I would like a bit more information on the future of Puppet.
>> Specifically, I want to know about things that have been or are going
>> to be deprecated.
>>
>> As I''m running Debian Etch and it includes Puppet v0.20.1 I am
a
>> little behind the current version of Puppet.  I can''t really
upgrade
>> to a more current version without breaking my platform but at the  
>> same
>> time I don''t really want to use something that will be
disabled in
>> future versions if I can help it.  Things like libdir going away are
>> buried in the middle of the document and extremely hard to find.  If
>> we could have a list of deprecated things and/or a map of the future
>> it would be very helpful.
>
> I''ve built a first version of a Roadmap:
>
> http://reductivelabs.com/trac/puppet/wiki/RoadMap
>
> I don''t know where the all-caps thing came from, but, uh,
I''m not
> going to continue it.  Maybe it''s from the files at the root of
the
> repo?  Those should probably be changed, although some of them are
> pointed to by web sites and such.
>
> There are no mentions of deprecations in this document.  In fact,
it''s
> really just a quick dash of what''s in my head.  Hopefully
I''ll add
> things as I think of them, but, well, who knows?
>
> If someone has a good idea of how to maintain deprecations, please let
> me know.
Coming from the Rails world, I thought the deprecated plugin[1] was  
really helpful.  I''m sure the idea could be applied to puppet  
manifests and configs in some way...   I think it''d be useful if the  
tool is separate from any puppet release, and that it know about as  
old a version as is possible (maybe 0.20.x?).  Maybe when the tool is  
run it checks the current version, and then they can specify a target  
version (the one they want to upgrade to) and it spits out what will  
break between those releases.

-Blake

1. http://nubyonrails.com/articles/deprecated-plugin-find-old-rails-code

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On Mar 31, 2008, at 10:37 PM, Blake Barnett wrote:
> Coming from the Rails world, I thought the deprecated plugin[1] was
> really helpful.  I''m sure the idea could be applied to puppet
> manifests and configs in some way...   I think it''d be useful if
the
> tool is separate from any puppet release, and that it know about as
> old a version as is possible (maybe 0.20.x?).  Maybe when the tool is
> run it checks the current version, and then they can specify a target
> version (the one they want to upgrade to) and it spits out what will
> break between those releases.

This would be great.

Any volunteers?

-- 
Hanlon''s razor:
     Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by
     stupidity.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Luke Kanies | http://reductivelabs.com | http://madstop.com


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On Mar 31, 2008, at 8:41 PM, Luke Kanies wrote:
>
> On Mar 31, 2008, at 10:37 PM, Blake Barnett wrote:
>
>> Coming from the Rails world, I thought the deprecated plugin[1] was
>> really helpful.  I''m sure the idea could be applied to puppet
>> manifests and configs in some way...   I think it''d be useful
if the
>> tool is separate from any puppet release, and that it know about as
>> old a version as is possible (maybe 0.20.x?).  Maybe when the tool is
>> run it checks the current version, and then they can specify a target
>> version (the one they want to upgrade to) and it spits out what will
>> break between those releases.
>
>
> This would be great.
>
> Any volunteers?
I suspect it''ll be a whole lot of trial and error, especially with all
the older versions.  I''m happy to help with writing the code for it if
we can make it a collaborative effort with people testing different  
version combinations and reporting breakages.  I imagine there''s a lot
of hints in git history logs and tickets too.

-Blake

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Blake Barnett wrote:
| I suspect it''ll be a whole lot of trial and error, especially with
all
| the older versions.  I''m happy to help with writing the code for it
if
| we can make it a collaborative effort with people testing different
| version combinations and reporting breakages.  I imagine there''s a
lot
| of hints in git history logs and tickets too.

Happy to test if you write the code.

James Turnbull

- --
James Turnbull (james@lovedthanlost.net)
- --
Author of:
- - Pulling Strings with Puppet
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590599780/)
- - Pro Nagios 2.0
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590596099/)
- - Hardening Linux
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590594444/)
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Luke -
  I can understand that problem. I have found one oddite that needs to
be documented on upgrades but not idea where to put it. Puppet 2..24.4
clients do not work well with 2.24.1 servers. Not normally a problem I
guess. I am not evne sure how I ended up with. both my server and
client are using the same repos.

Evan

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 5:23 PM, Luke Kanies <luke@madstop.com>
wrote:
>
>  On Mar 31, 2008, at 3:33 PM, James Turnbull wrote:
>
>  > Richard
>  >
>  > The wiki is open for anyone to edit.  I don''t intend to do
more than
>  > keep the UPGRADE document up to date.
>  >
>  > Please feel free to add a deprecated features list.
>
>
>  I''ll do my best to get a Roadmap doc written, with one caveat:
>
>  Docs that don''t get read and discussed get abandoned.  So far,
all of
>  my attempts at maintaining docs like this have been roundly ignored.
>
>  If you want good documentation, it''s your responsibility as the
>  interested party to help guarantee documentation quality[1].  This is
>  doubly so when it comes to developer documentation, which the Roadmap
>  will inevitably resemble -- if the dev docs are wrong and no one
>  notices or cares, I''m not going to bother to fix them.
>
>  In general, I do *much* better when I can provide pertinent
>  information to an interested party who then produces the
>  documentation.  Feel free to call me a quitter and a bad project
>  maintainer; to me, it''s just reality.  Writing documentation is
like
>  pulling teeth to me.  I know it''s not supposed to be, but it
feels too
>  much like something that the stupid computer should be able to do, and
>  that kind of thing always raises my blood pressure and causes
>  spontaneous bouts of drinking and shouting.
>
>  1 - Paying customers need only express a need for docs; part of what
>  they''re paying me for is a promise of quality documentation where
they
>  need it.
>
>  --
>  A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in
>  human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila.
>      -- Mitch Ratcliffe
>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Luke Kanies | http://reductivelabs.com | http://madstop.com
>
>
>
>
>  >
>
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On Apr 1, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Evan Hisey wrote:
> Luke -
>  I can understand that problem. I have found one oddite that needs to
> be documented on upgrades but not idea where to put it. Puppet 2..24.4
> clients do not work well with 2.24.1 servers. Not normally a problem I
> guess. I am not evne sure how I ended up with. both my server and
> client are using the same repos.

Yeah, in general old servers do not work with new clients, and 0.24.3  
(I think) introduced an incompatibility.  I looked at trying to fix it  
and couldn''t.

-- 
Think twice before you speak, and then you may be able to say
something more insulting than if you spoke right out at
once. -- Evan Esar
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Luke Kanies | http://reductivelabs.com | http://madstop.com


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