Hi folks, We have been delaying taking a decision about this for too much time now, the freeze is coming up [0], and we need to have it clear, for our users, the release team and the rest of Debian. Basically we can ship either KDE 3.5.9 or KDE 4.1. For some people in the team it seems clear we should ship KDE 4.1, for some other it is clear we should ship KDE 3.5.9. The latter is my opinion, so here you have a mail explaining why we should release with 3.5.9. Feel free to reply with a nice mail of why we should ship with KDE 4.1, detailing as well how much time *you* are planning to invest in this goal. By the way, my proposal is shipping KDE 3.5.9 with the KDE 4.1 development platform: kde4libs, kdepimlibs and kdebase-runtime. - No huge advantages in shipping KDE 4.1 Honestly, I do not see any advantage in shipping KDE 4.1 instead of KDE 3.5.9 besides of coolness and bleeding-edge stuff. I do see this movement more like a change of desktop than an improved new version of KDE. The KDE 4 series clearly represent a big change in innovation and improvement over KDE 3, something that has just started. KDE 4 will have a lot of to tell in the future (4.2, 4.3..), you only have to see how much it has improved from 4.0 to 4.1 beta 1. But I do not see KDE 4.1 still fully replacing all the necessities of our users. There is still a bunch of small details there and here, I will talk of some here further on this mail (for example, koffice), but what worries me here specially is that some are totally unknown for us, since we have a lot of users with very different use cases. - KDE 4.1 has not been released yet. KDE 4.1 has not been released yet, looking at the release schedule [1], it is supposed to be released July 29th, this is already impossible with current Lenny''s release, and we would need an exception from the release team that will be only granted if it is really worth it. Then, a delay in this schedule from KDE release team would be bad for us, since we are so tight in time. The sooner we could upload something to unstable would be with the RC1 that will be released on the 15th of July, 2 weeks before the final version. Lenny is supposed to go into full freeze in the mid of July, this could be delayed, but what is sure libraries will be frozen in 3-4 weeks, and we need ship a huge amount of new libraries. Besides, it is usually better ship an update of 4.1.x that contains fixes to the most important problems found in the 4.1.0 release. -Build dependencies we need to take care of And then, it is not only the KDE 4 desktop, there are a set of build dependencies we have to maintain and not all of them are already in unstable, those dependencies are: akonadi, automoc (already in unstable, but it is a snapshot), decibel, soprano, tapioca-qt and telepathy-qt. And we''ll have soon phonon, but I do consider phonon part of KDE 4. We''ll need to ship it anyway in order of upload the development platform to unstable. -Some widely used apps of the KDE desktop are not ready Even if they are not shipped with the core packages, some apps belong to the KDE desktop and to the KDE project. We have here Koffice, kdevelop or amarok. I have not idea of the exact status of amarok, but I think it won''t be ready. Amarok is one of a lot of widely used apps in the KDE desktop that won''t have a substitute in KDE 4. There is a myriad of small apps in this situation. Koffice 2 won''t be ready so we are shipping with koffice 1 that needs some parts of KDE 3 to work properly (like kcontrol), so it will need some hacking because it is not currently fully installable in KDE 4... and it won''t be properly integrated anyway. I''m not sure how well works kdevelop with KDE 4, but newer kdevelop (that needs now kdevplatform package) won''t be ready. Quanta needs as well kdevplatform, but quanta is shipped inside kdewebdev and it is one of the modules we have not packaged yet (together with accessibility and bindings). Then you have that some interesting apps usually distributed in the core modules, are not yet ready, for example kpilot in kdepim. AFAIK, this is postponed for KDE 4.2. -No positive feedback about shipping it My blog post about how to install KDE 4.1 beta 1 had some feedback of other developers in planet and specially from users in several blogs and forums that linked my post. Most of the people seem to like it as in "it will be cool", but everybody seems to agree that it is not still a replacement for KDE 3 in their daily tasks. Basically, I see 3 kinds of users: developers, power users and average users. KDE 4.1 could be ready for developers who are able to cope with the lack of some apps, mixing kde3 and kde4 without risks etc, and the same goes to power users. But I do not see it ready for final users, they won''t like this (imposed) change. We would be shipping the KDE 4.1 desktop just released, and usually in the community, average users wait until more advanced users are used to this new software then it is when they adopt it, because then, they have support and help from forum and mailing lists from this more advanced users. With the current beta power users and developers still do not see it ready for daily use, so what you can expect for our average users. -Some arches do not like KDE 4 Let''s keep this short: KDE 4 needs to be built in all the release archs, and it actually does not. -You can have everybody happy My proposal is release with "old" reliable KDE 3.5.9 not forcing anyone to update to KDE 4.1, and just provide 4.1.x "official" backports. So whose who want to use KDE 4.1 will just use the backports and besides, these users will have these backports updated through the KDE 4.1.x (x=1,2,3..) updates. I am willing to work on these backports. By the way, Backports infrastructure is only for stuff in testing, but I''m sure we can find a nice solution here. I have been thinking this way since months ago, but I did not want to kill people''s hope of shipping it in Lenny without looking at KDE 4.1 evolutions in development and really seeing whether it fits in our calendar with respect to Lenny. And with the current data, I think it is clearly a bad idea shipping KDE 4.1. Ana [0] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2008/06/msg00000.html [1] http://techbase.kde.org/index.php?title=Schedules/KDE4/4.1_Release_Schedule -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-kde-talk/attachments/20080605/99bf8215/attachment.pgp
On Thursday 05 June 2008, Ana Guerrero wrote:> Hi folks, > > We have been delaying taking a decision about this for too much time now, > the freeze is coming up [0], and we need to have it clear, for our users, > the release team and the rest of Debian.True. We need to have it clear.> Basically we can ship either KDE 3.5.9 or KDE 4.1. For some people in the > team it seems clear we should ship KDE 4.1, for some other it is clear we > should ship KDE 3.5.9. The latter is my opinion, so here you have a mail > explaining why we should release with 3.5.9. Feel free to reply with a nice > mail of why we should ship with KDE 4.1, detailing as well how much time > *you* are planning to invest in this goal. > By the way, my proposal is shipping KDE 3.5.9 with the KDE 4.1 development > platform: kde4libs, kdepimlibs and kdebase-runtime.My expected times: - Kde3 as desktop: 0. Maybe instead working on getting interesting kde4 apps available in lenny. or maybe I will just focus on kde4 wherever that is. - Kde4 as desktop: what it takes. Lots. but 15-25 h weekly should definately be possible. Except week 31. - and I have no kde3 desktops around any more to test and work with. My proposal is to ship kde4.1 with kde3libs and kcontrol and kios from kdebase (I am currently working on stripping down kdebase) - Huge advantage with kde4 Active upstream development, bugfixings and general work. Kde3 is dead. Nothing in e.g. khtml will be fixed if it doesn''t work (I encountered many sites where javascripts were to advanced) (Well - except if it is something really major like google front page) Kde4 shows new ways of thingking the desktop which I feel is really interesting and worth to be spreading out as soon as possible. Kde4 is new and interesting and the right way to go. And a real improvement to debian and debian''s reputation of shipping ancient software.> - KDE 4.1 has not been released yet. > KDE 4.1 has not been released yet, looking at the release schedule [1], it > is supposed to be released July 29th, this is already impossible with > current Lenny''s release, and we would need an exception from the release > team that will be only granted if it is really worth it. Then, a delay in > this schedule from KDE release team would be bad for us, since we are so > tight in time. The sooner we could upload something to unstable would be > with the RC1 that will be released on the 15th of July, 2 weeks before the > final version. Lenny is supposed to go into full freeze in the mid of July, > this could be delayed, but what is sure libraries will be frozen in 3-4 > weeks, and we need ship a huge amount of new libraries. > Besides, it is usually better ship an update of 4.1.x that contains fixes > to the most important problems found in the 4.1.0 release.I expect kde4.1 to be on time - but I actually think it is worth to delay lenny for if needed.> -Build dependencies we need to take care of > And then, it is not only the KDE 4 desktop, there are a set of build > dependencies we have to maintain and not all of them are already in > unstable, those dependencies are: akonadi, automoc (already in unstable, > but it is a snapshot), decibel, soprano, tapioca-qt and telepathy-qt. > And we''ll have soon phonon, but I do consider phonon part of KDE 4. We''ll > need to ship it anyway in order of upload the development platform to > unstable.I don''t see any issues here but waving red herrings around. But I don''t know if anything actually uses decibel, which we then could ignore and with that tapioca and telepathy.> -Some widely used apps of the KDE desktop are not ready > Even if they are not shipped with the core packages, some apps belong to > the KDE desktop and to the KDE project. We have here Koffice, kdevelop or > amarok. I have not idea of the exact status of amarok, but I think it won''t > be ready. Amarok is one of a lot of widely used apps in the KDE desktop > that won''t have a substitute in KDE 4. There is a myriad of small apps in > this situation.Amarok, true. kdevelop, true, but we have the kde3 versions. And koffice - to be blunt and honest - kde3 koffice actually sucks.> Koffice 2 won''t be ready so we are shipping with koffice 1 that needs some > parts of KDE 3 to work properly (like kcontrol), so it will need some > hacking because it is not currently fully installable in KDE 4... and it > won''t be properly integrated anyway. I''m not sure how well works kdevelop > with KDE 4, but newer kdevelop (that needs now kdevplatform package) won''t > be ready. Quanta needs as well kdevplatform, but quanta is shipped inside > kdewebdev and it is one of the modules we have not packaged yet (together > with accessibility and bindings).We can keep kdevelop and webdev from kde3 no big issue. And the kcontrol issue I already have on my radar. There is also other kde3 apps we need to keep around: - kdetv - bibletime - kxstitch - basket> Then you have that some interesting apps usually distributed in the core > modules, are not yet ready, for example kpilot in kdepim. AFAIK, this is > postponed for KDE 4.2.kpilot is utterly unimportant. it only works for very few devices anyway, and most of these are decommisioned already.> > -No positive feedback about shipping it > My blog post about how to install KDE 4.1 beta 1 had some feedback of other > developers in planet and specially from users in several blogs and forums > that linked my post. Most of the people seem to like it as in "it will be > cool", but everybody seems to agree that it is not still a replacement > for KDE 3 in their daily tasks. > Basically, I see 3 kinds of users: developers, power users and average > users. KDE 4.1 could be ready for developers who are able to cope with > the lack of some apps, mixing kde3 and kde4 without risks etc, and > the same goes to power users. But I do not see it ready for final users, > they won''t like this (imposed) change. > We would be shipping the KDE 4.1 desktop just released, and usually in the > community, average users wait until more advanced users are used to this > new software then it is when they adopt it, because then, they have support > and help from forum and mailing lists from this more advanced users. > With the current beta power users and developers still do not see it ready > for daily use, so what you can expect for our average users.eh ? People won''t adopt it before it is very easy available - and we shouldn''t push it until it is adopted. It is a kind of chicken-egg issue described here - and we need to bring the chickens. And people can''t tell if it will be usable for their daily tasks when only have tried it for a hour. It is new and different and people needs to adapt to something being different.> -Some arches do not like KDE 4 > Let''s keep this short: KDE 4 needs to be built in all the release archs, > and it actually does not.It is only hppa. It should be possible to get someone to fix it. (and it isn''t autobuild on arm* platforms, but I have pretty good faith in that it builds there - and most possible build failures on arm* are related to qreal vs double, so easy fixable)> -You can have everybody happy > My proposal is release with "old" reliable KDE 3.5.9 not forcing anyone > to update to KDE 4.1, and just provide 4.1.x "official" backports. So whose > who want to use KDE 4.1 will just use the backports and besides, these > users will have these backports updated through the KDE 4.1.x (x=1,2,3..) > updates. I am willing to work on these backports. > By the way, Backports infrastructure is only for stuff in testing, but I''m > sure we can find a nice solution here.We might not be able to have everybody happy, true. Then we have to choose. I choose to make kde4 people happy. And backports isn''t a real solution.> I have been thinking this way since months ago,This is where I am about drop the part about "being nice" in the email, but I guess I won''t write anything further.> but I did not want to kill > people''s hope of shipping it in Lenny without looking at KDE 4.1 evolutions > in development and really seeing whether it fits in our calendar with > respect to Lenny. And with the current data, I think it is clearly a bad > idea shipping KDE 4.1.I think it is clearly a very good idea to ship kde4.1. Not doing so will be a very big mistake. And it fits exactly in the schedule for lenny. /Sune -- Do you know how to get access over the 24-bit proxy from Netscape 4.8? The point is that you neither can debug a GPU, nor must rename a driver to forward to the IDE mousepad.
Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer
2008-Jun-06 03:07 UTC
KDE version in Lenny: KDE 3.5.9 vs KDE 4.1
Hello everybody, I''m the new guy in the neighborhood (tm) :-) . As such, I''ll _try_ not to take a position here (I already did in IRC, but being the newbie here, I think thatwasn''t a wise decision). First of all, Sune forget me for replying to your mail, I have been suscribed to debian-qt-kde for ~ more than a month, but found this list to be the "talkative one" just before Ana''s mail. El Thursday 05 June 2008 19:47:54 Sune Vuorela escribi?:> On Thursday 05 June 2008, Ana Guerrero wrote: > > Hi folks, > > > > We have been delaying taking a decision about this for too much time now, > > the freeze is coming up [0], and we need to have it clear, for our users, > > the release team and the rest of Debian. > > True. We need to have it clear.And to make it public too.> > Basically we can ship either KDE 3.5.9 or KDE 4.1. For some people in the > > team it seems clear we should ship KDE 4.1, for some other it is clear we > > should ship KDE 3.5.9. The latter is my opinion, so here you have a mail > > explaining why we should release with 3.5.9. Feel free to reply with a > > nice mail of why we should ship with KDE 4.1, detailing as well how much > > time *you* are planning to invest in this goal. > > By the way, my proposal is shipping KDE 3.5.9 with the KDE 4.1 > > development platform: kde4libs, kdepimlibs and kdebase-runtime.As a newbie, I do not have the least idea. I an currently running KDE 4.1 Beta 1, but I have KDE 3.5.9 in a virtual machine. So, I may be able to help both parties. Let''s hope so :-)> - Huge advantage with kde4 > Active upstream development, bugfixings and general work. Kde3 is dead. > Nothing in e.g. khtml will be fixed if it doesn''t work (I encountered many > sites where javascripts were to advanced) (Well - except if it is something > really major like google front page)This is enterly true AFAIK.> Kde4 shows new ways of thingking the desktop which I feel is really > interesting and worth to be spreading out as soon as possible.But, beeing using KDE 4 since Ana''s blog post (and not knowing what is expected to be completed for 4.1), I don''t find it enough polished nor with a set of options that a _common_ user will expect of KDE. A simple example of a stupid thing: I can''t put my wallpapers even as a mosaic (let''s not talk about centered maxpect). [snip]> > -Some widely used apps of the KDE desktop are not ready > > Even if they are not shipped with the core packages, some apps belong to > > the KDE desktop and to the KDE project. We have here Koffice, kdevelop or > > amarok. I have not idea of the exact status of amarok, but I think it > > won''t be ready. Amarok is one of a lot of widely used apps in the KDE > > desktop that won''t have a substitute in KDE 4. There is a myriad of small > > apps in this situation. > > Amarok, true. kdevelop, true, but we have the kde3 versions.Both work perfectly fine from KDE 4.1, at least in the beta and the far I used them :-D I have been developing Qt 4 programs with Kdevelop 3 without any problems. Amarok is as good as always.> And koffice - to be blunt and honest - kde3 koffice actually sucks.Tell me if I am wrong, but we can''t ship Lenny without a KOffice.> > Koffice 2 won''t be ready so we are shipping with koffice 1 that needs > > some parts of KDE 3 to work properly (like kcontrol), so it will need > > some hacking because it is not currently fully installable in KDE 4... > > and it won''t be properly integrated anyway. I''m not sure how well works > > kdevelop with KDE 4, but newer kdevelop (that needs now kdevplatform > > package) won''t be ready. Quanta needs as well kdevplatform, but quanta is > > shipped inside kdewebdev and it is one of the modules we have not > > packaged yet (together with accessibility and bindings).I used Quanta but not very much. Seems to work perfectly, but again, I have not tested it too much.> We can keep kdevelop and webdev from kde3 no big issue. And the kcontrol > issue I already have on my radar. > There is also other kde3 apps we need to keep around: > - kdetv > - bibletime > - kxstitch > - basket?Konversation? If we had a newer version for kde 4, great. If no, I have encountered a problem today. The urls were opened by Quanta. I had to manually edit ~/.kde/share/config/profilerc to correct this. Except this can be solved by using ~/.kde instead of ~/.kde4, it''s an issue that may happen in other apps too. [snip]> > -No positive feedback about shipping it > > My blog post about how to install KDE 4.1 beta 1 had some feedback of > > other developers in planet and specially from users in several blogs and > > forums that linked my post. Most of the people seem to like it as in "it > > will be cool", but everybody seems to agree that it is not still a > > replacement for KDE 3 in their daily tasks. > > Basically, I see 3 kinds of users: developers, power users and average > > users. KDE 4.1 could be ready for developers who are able to cope with > > the lack of some apps, mixing kde3 and kde4 without risks etc, and > > the same goes to power users. But I do not see it ready for final users, > > they won''t like this (imposed) change. > > We would be shipping the KDE 4.1 desktop just released, and usually in > > the community, average users wait until more advanced users are used to > > this new software then it is when they adopt it, because then, they have > > support and help from forum and mailing lists from this more advanced > > users. With the current beta power users and developers still do not see > > it ready for daily use, so what you can expect for our average users. > > eh ? People won''t adopt it before it is very easy available - and we > shouldn''t push it until it is adopted. It is a kind of chicken-egg issue > described here - and we need to bring the chickens. > > And people can''t tell if it will be usable for their daily tasks when only > have tried it for a hour. It is new and different and people needs to adapt > to something being different.Sorry Sune but, once again, it is not usable for the common user. I have been asking question on different mailing list (on spanish, but if you want the links of the threads, I''ll gladly post them), and people _are_ complaining for lot _small_ things. As an example, there was one that couldn''t configure the net without knetworkmanager. As far as beta 1, he would have to use the console. If that keeps true for the release of 4.1, then it is not good marketing for us. [snip]> > -You can have everybody happy > > My proposal is release with "old" reliable KDE 3.5.9 not forcing anyone > > to update to KDE 4.1, and just provide 4.1.x "official" backports. So > > whose who want to use KDE 4.1 will just use the backports and besides, > > these users will have these backports updated through the KDE 4.1.x > > (x=1,2,3..) updates. I am willing to work on these backports. > > By the way, Backports infrastructure is only for stuff in testing, but > > I''m sure we can find a nice solution here.I don''t know the technical details of this, or if we ("you" fits better here, I guess) must put KDE 4 in lenny. All I know is that, as Beta 1, it is _not_ready_ for the common user. Regards, Lisandro. -- 4: Que es un icono * Un caballono Damian Nadales http://mx.grulic.org.ar/lurker/message/20080307.141449.a70fb2fc.es.html Lisandro Dami?n Nicanor P?rez Meyer http://perezmeyer.com.ar/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-kde-talk/attachments/20080606/57b9d641/attachment-0001.pgp
On Thursday 05 June 2008 16:03, Ana Guerrero wrote:> Hi folks, > > We have been delaying taking a decision about this for too much time now, > the freeze is coming up [0], and we need to have it clear, for our users, > the release team and the rest of Debian. > > Basically we can ship either KDE 3.5.9 or KDE 4.1. For some people in the > team it seems clear we should ship KDE 4.1, for some other it is clear we > should ship KDE 3.5.9. The latter is my opinion, so here you have a mail > explaining why we should release with 3.5.9. Feel free to reply with a nice > mail of why we should ship with KDE 4.1, detailing as well how much time > *you* are planning to invest in this goal. > By the way, my proposal is shipping KDE 3.5.9 with the KDE 4.1 development > platform: kde4libs, kdepimlibs and kdebase-runtime.Kubuntu is committed to ship KDE 4.1 in it''s October release. If it doesn''t work out so well, you might see me migrate to a Lenny that had 3.5.9. From my perpsective as a Kubuntu developer trying to get 4.1 working (and the needed KDE3 bits) in the Kubuntu Intrepid repository, KDE 4.1 seems to me to be pretty scary for a release that will be THE Debian KDE release for at least a year and will have to be supported for at least two years. I fully expect that Kubuntu Intrepid with KDE 4.1 will end up being labled as "For Intrepid adventurers" (e.g if you want to get serious work done, wait for the next release). Debian is, by design, more conservative than the various Ubuntu parts and I think that''s good. The one caution I will give you is around displayconfig (in kde-guidance). I''m still working on refactoring the current Kubuntu package to make it suitable for Debian. It would be a major improvement from what you have now, but expect it to be fundamentally broken for dual screen configurations. KDE really needs a good Xrandr display tool. The only one I know of ships with KDE4. Good luck making the decision, it doesn''t look like an easy one. Scott K
Am Donnerstag, 5. Juni 2008 schrieb Ana Guerrero:> We have been delaying taking a decision about this for too much time now, > the freeze is coming up [0], and we need to have it clear, for our users, > the release team and the rest of Debian.Just take a look around any of the various bug lists for KDE, in Debian or upstream. How many months or years of testing do you think it took to find these? Considering that KDE 4 is pretty much new software, you should plan on spending that much testing time for it as well. And I don''t believe that time has already been spent, despite all the prereleasing and so on. So in my mind the proposed plan to upload hitherto unreleased software in the last minute before the OS release is quite foolish. Keep in mind that KDE is going to be used by a lot of otherwise computer-illiterate users. There are a lot of corporate and government users that are very conservative and need robust functionality and upgrade paths. Things like icons being misrendered, MIME types not being properly connected, the apparent requirement to mix some KDE 3 and 4 applications -- yes, all these things are probably fixable and can be tolerated by an experienced user. But if KDE+Debian is supposed to be "The Linux Desktop", which it is well on its way to being, then these problems, which are numerious in KDE 4, should not be tolerated.
Sune Vuorela <Sune at vuorela.dk> writes:> - Huge advantage with kde4 > Active upstream development, bugfixings and general work. Kde3 is dead.That point is moot for thinking about inclusion in a *stable* distribution. Noone disputes that kde4 is actually actively worked on, while KDE3 has gone to maintenance mode - but the only thing that counts is the quality of KDE3 and KDE4 in four to six weeks. After that, no development effort will end up in lenny, only maintenance will be needed. This hasn''t been brought up yet, but if KDE4.1 will end up as incomplete as it looks like right now [1], will the KDE team actually support it once 4.2 is out or will they try to get people to move on to 4.2 [2]?> I expect kde4.1 to be on time - but I actually think it is worth to delay > lenny for if needed.*cough*>> -Some arches do not like KDE 4 >> Let''s keep this short: KDE 4 needs to be built in all the release archs, >> and it actually does not. > > It is only hppa. It should be possible to get someone to fix it."Should be possible" sucks for actual planning.> Not doing so will be a very big mistake. And it fits exactly in the schedule > for lenny.That is not true. If you would actually be able to follow the lenny schedule, KDE4 would already be in testing. Marc Footnotes: [1] Meaning that myriads of details are not yet ported/finished [2] Which is, as far as I understood, the promised land, where all KDE3 applications have been ported to KDE4, everything is polished and flashy features have been spread over all software - just like 4.1 was promised to be when 4.0 came out. -- BOFH #152: My pony-tail hit the on/off switch on the power strip. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 188 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-kde-talk/attachments/20080606/fa0448e3/attachment.pgp
On Thursday, 5. June 2008, Ana Guerrero wrote:> > Hi folks, > > We have been delaying taking a decision about this for too much time now, > the freeze is coming up [0], and we need to have it clear, for our users, > the release team and the rest of Debian.FWIW, just my thoughts, my own conclusion, and how I''ll handle it at work: I install kubuntu at work on the desktops, but I will stick at work with Kubuntu Hardy with KDE 3.5.9 when shiny new Kubuntu Intrepid with KDE 4.1 as only KDE desktop will be out. IMHO those users who are happy to have 4.1 as default, will want to switch to 4.2 when it''s out. So deciding to give them 4.1 in lenny will only make them happy for half a year. Not a thankful usergroup for an release cycle of ~ 18 month !? About ''outdated'' konqueror in KDE 3 it turned out that some webpages did not work with it. Firefox had no problem and the users stick with firefox So no real problem to stick with KDE 3 _until_ the KDE4 versions of konqueror (with webkit?) koffice, amarok, digikam ... blow the alternatives and KDE 3 away ;) My advanced users, maybe get KDE 4.1.* or 4.2 from an external repo if they ask and can explain me why ;) Thinking about ~/.kde, ~/.kde4 and merging is afaiu still to be really tested, especially when running in mixed kde3 and kde4 version of apps. An external repo updated with latest KDE 4 releases as they are released is the only sensible way IMHO to deal with the great KDE 4 fixes and enhancements. Maybe 4.2 or even a later 4.1.* but with more apps ported to KDE 4 is the right time to switch at work. Achim -- To me vi is Zen. To use vi is to practice zen. Every command is a koan. Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated. You discover truth everytime you use it. -- reddy at lion.austin.ibm.com
On Friday 06 June 2008, Marc ''HE'' Brockschmidt wrote:> Sune Vuorela <Sune at vuorela.dk> writes: > > - Huge advantage with kde4 > > Active upstream development, bugfixings and general work. Kde3 is dead. > > That point is moot for thinking about inclusion in a *stable* > distribution. Noone disputes that kde4 is actually actively worked on, > while KDE3 has gone to maintenance mode - but the only thing that counts > is the quality of KDE3 and KDE4 in four to six weeks. After that, no > development effort will end up in lenny, only maintenance will be > needed."maintenance mode" - nah. a bit more dead than that.> This hasn''t been brought up yet, but if KDE4.1 will end up as incomplete > as it looks like right now [1]I fail to see the incompleteness? Yes, there are details not working and it is different details than kde3,. You need to be more specific here.> , will the KDE team actually support it > once 4.2 is out or will they try to get people to move on to 4.2 [2]?They will of course try to get people to move on - but it will be considerable easier to backport stuff from 4.2 to 4.1 than to backport stuff from 4.2 to 3.5.9.> > I expect kde4.1 to be on time - but I actually think it is worth to delay > > lenny for if needed. > > *cough* > > >> -Some arches do not like KDE 4 > >> Let''s keep this short: KDE 4 needs to be built in all the release archs, > >> and it actually does not. > > > > It is only hppa. It should be possible to get someone to fix it. > > "Should be possible" sucks for actual planning.yes. But there isn''t much to do about it. No porters and no porter machine available.> Marc > > Footnotes: > [1] Meaning that myriads of details are not yet ported/finished > [2] Which is, as far as I understood, the promised land, where all KDE3 > applications have been ported to KDE4, everything is polished and > flashy features have been spread over all software - just like 4.1 > was promised to be when 4.0 came out.[a] http://lists.debian.org/debian-hppa/2008/05/msg00039.html -- Man, do you know how can I digit from the 2D button? You should install the hard disk for mounting a pointer.
Hi,> -Some arches do not like KDE 4 > Let''s keep this short: KDE 4 needs to be built in all the release archs, > and it actually does not.It would be nice to have these reported to us, especially that Debian''s archs are more than the ones usually tested by developers and normal users. We could be most probably helpful in fixing those, but if noone reports us, we don''t know about them ;( -- Pino Toscano -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-kde-talk/attachments/20080606/baf16dcb/attachment.pgp
On Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 12:47:54AM +0200, Sune Vuorela wrote:> On Thursday 05 June 2008, Ana Guerrero wrote: >> > Basically we can ship either KDE 3.5.9 or KDE 4.1. For some people in the > > team it seems clear we should ship KDE 4.1, for some other it is clear we > > should ship KDE 3.5.9. The latter is my opinion, so here you have a mail > > explaining why we should release with 3.5.9. Feel free to reply with a nice > > mail of why we should ship with KDE 4.1, detailing as well how much time > > *you* are planning to invest in this goal. > > By the way, my proposal is shipping KDE 3.5.9 with the KDE 4.1 development > > platform: kde4libs, kdepimlibs and kdebase-runtime. > > My expected times: > - Kde3 as desktop: 0. Maybe instead working on getting interesting kde4 apps > available in lenny. or maybe I will just focus on kde4 wherever that is. > - Kde4 as desktop: what it takes. Lots. but 15-25 h weekly should definately > be possible. Except week 31. > > - and I have no kde3 desktops around any more to test and work with. >One only man 15-25h weekly is not enough for all the testing that needs to be done, all the answering/checking bug reports, check uploads, read mailing list related etc. (I have not seen here more people promising devote time to this goal) Once kde 4.1 would be in unstable it is a fight against time and almost all week are hard to be in VAC if you want this in lenny, but the week 31 is from 28 July to 3 august, is *really* bad timing.. do you plan upload kde 4.1 to unstable before leaving (release is 29th july) then do not be around for fixing all the possible stuff you could have broken and not handling all the issues that prevent a quick migration to testing?> > - Huge advantage with kde4 > Active upstream development, bugfixings and general work. Kde3 is dead. > Nothing in e.g. khtml will be fixed if it doesn''t work (I encountered many > sites where javascripts were to advanced) (Well - except if it is something > really major like google front page) > > Kde4 shows new ways of thingking the desktop which I feel is really > interesting and worth to be spreading out as soon as possible. >And people should have the option of switch to KDE 4.1 if they want to, you want to force them.> Kde4 is new and interesting and the right way to go. And a real improvement to > debian and debian''s reputation of shipping ancient software. >This is all personal opinion, not important here. As well, Debian have a reputation of delay from the announced date, do you want to contribute to this too?> > - KDE 4.1 has not been released yet. > > KDE 4.1 has not been released yet, looking at the release schedule [1], it > > is supposed to be released July 29th, this is already impossible with > > current Lenny''s release, and we would need an exception from the release > > team that will be only granted if it is really worth it. Then, a delay in > > this schedule from KDE release team would be bad for us, since we are so > > tight in time. The sooner we could upload something to unstable would be > > with the RC1 that will be released on the 15th of July, 2 weeks before the > > final version. Lenny is supposed to go into full freeze in the mid of July, > > this could be delayed, but what is sure libraries will be frozen in 3-4 > > weeks, and we need ship a huge amount of new libraries. > > Besides, it is usually better ship an update of 4.1.x that contains fixes > > to the most important problems found in the 4.1.0 release. > > I expect kde4.1 to be on time - but I actually think it is worth to delay > lenny for if needed. >Again, let''s go to the facts, we have not idea whether it will be released on time, but we do not know for _sure_ it has not been released yet. If you look at the release calendar, we should have already KDE 4.1 released and in unstable, migrating, to be ok with the Lenny release calendar.> > > -Build dependencies we need to take care of > > And then, it is not only the KDE 4 desktop, there are a set of build > > dependencies we have to maintain and not all of them are already in > > unstable, those dependencies are: akonadi, automoc (already in unstable, > > but it is a snapshot), decibel, soprano, tapioca-qt and telepathy-qt. > > And we''ll have soon phonon, but I do consider phonon part of KDE 4. We''ll > > need to ship it anyway in order of upload the development platform to > > unstable. > > I don''t see any issues here but waving red herrings around. > But I don''t know if anything actually uses decibel, which we then could ignore > and with that tapioca and telepathy. >Build dependencies won''t be a big deal in the big picture, true. About decibel it is used by kopete and the thelepathy stuff, so you are pushing here to have the last hit in desktop with all the coolest features [0], but you do not have problems cripping one of those (because it is not useful for you) if that is too much work for you.> > -Some widely used apps of the KDE desktop are not ready > > Even if they are not shipped with the core packages, some apps belong to > > the KDE desktop and to the KDE project. We have here Koffice, kdevelop or > > amarok. I have not idea of the exact status of amarok, but I think it won''t > > be ready. Amarok is one of a lot of widely used apps in the KDE desktop > > that won''t have a substitute in KDE 4. There is a myriad of small apps in > > this situation. > > Amarok, true. kdevelop, true, but we have the kde3 versions. > And koffice - to be blunt and honest - kde3 koffice actually sucks. >And how your personal opinion about koffice1 sucking matters here? (matters in releasing with kde4.1 vs kde 3.5.9). Koffice1 has a user base, belongs to the KDE desktop, some of us maintain it and we do care about it.> > Koffice 2 won''t be ready so we are shipping with koffice 1 that needs some > > parts of KDE 3 to work properly (like kcontrol), so it will need some > > hacking because it is not currently fully installable in KDE 4... and it > > won''t be properly integrated anyway. I''m not sure how well works kdevelop > > with KDE 4, but newer kdevelop (that needs now kdevplatform package) won''t > > be ready. Quanta needs as well kdevplatform, but quanta is shipped inside > > kdewebdev and it is one of the modules we have not packaged yet (together > > with accessibility and bindings). > > We can keep kdevelop and webdev from kde3 no big issue. And the kcontrol issue > I already have on my radar. > There is also other kde3 apps we need to keep around: > - kdetv > - bibletime > - kxstitch > - basket >Again, from your personal user-case. I only said some apps that first came to my mind. For example, I do miss in that list kbiff, i do use it. And every user you ask will miss any KDE 3 app there, sometimes because there is not real equivalent in KDE 4, sometimes because it is unknown for them.> > Then you have that some interesting apps usually distributed in the core > > modules, are not yet ready, for example kpilot in kdepim. AFAIK, this is > > postponed for KDE 4.2. > > kpilot is utterly unimportant. it only works for very few devices anyway, and > most of these are decommisioned already. >> > > > -No positive feedback about shipping it > > My blog post about how to install KDE 4.1 beta 1 had some feedback of other > > developers in planet and specially from users in several blogs and forums > > that linked my post. Most of the people seem to like it as in "it will be > > cool", but everybody seems to agree that it is not still a replacement > > for KDE 3 in their daily tasks. > > Basically, I see 3 kinds of users: developers, power users and average > > users. KDE 4.1 could be ready for developers who are able to cope with > > the lack of some apps, mixing kde3 and kde4 without risks etc, and > > the same goes to power users. But I do not see it ready for final users, > > they won''t like this (imposed) change. > > We would be shipping the KDE 4.1 desktop just released, and usually in the > > community, average users wait until more advanced users are used to this > > new software then it is when they adopt it, because then, they have support > > and help from forum and mailing lists from this more advanced users. > > With the current beta power users and developers still do not see it ready > > for daily use, so what you can expect for our average users. > > eh ? People won''t adopt it before it is very easy available - and we > shouldn''t push it until it is adopted. It is a kind of chicken-egg issue > described here - and we need to bring the chickens. >Well, we had a nice how to of how testing it. People can try it, people have tried it and we have some feedback. Since you mostly did not like it, you choose ignore it.> And people can''t tell if it will be usable for their daily tasks when only > have tried it for a hour. It is new and different and people needs to adapt to > something being different. >Of course, if you force then to use it in their daily tasks they will have to adapt to it or die. Sure.> > > -Some arches do not like KDE 4 > > Let''s keep this short: KDE 4 needs to be built in all the release archs, > > and it actually does not. > > It is only hppa. It should be possible to get someone to fix it. > (and it isn''t autobuild on arm* platforms, but I have pretty good faith in > that it builds there - and most possible build failures on arm* are related to > qreal vs double, so easy fixable) >Still, something to needs be worked on. And you said some days ago by IRC clearly it was not your problem, or something like that...> > -You can have everybody happy > > My proposal is release with "old" reliable KDE 3.5.9 not forcing anyone > > to update to KDE 4.1, and just provide 4.1.x "official" backports. So whose > > who want to use KDE 4.1 will just use the backports and besides, these > > users will have these backports updated through the KDE 4.1.x (x=1,2,3..) > > updates. I am willing to work on these backports. > > By the way, Backports infrastructure is only for stuff in testing, but I''m > > sure we can find a nice solution here. > > We might not be able to have everybody happy, true. Then we have to choose. > I choose to make kde4 people happy. And backports isn''t a real solution. >Why is not backports a real solution?> > I have been thinking this way since months ago, > > This is where I am about drop the part about "being nice" in the email, but I > guess I won''t write anything further. > > > but I did not want to kill > > people''s hope of shipping it in Lenny without looking at KDE 4.1 evolutions > > in development and really seeing whether it fits in our calendar with > > respect to Lenny. And with the current data, I think it is clearly a bad > > idea shipping KDE 4.1. > > I think it is clearly a very good idea to ship kde4.1. > Not doing so will be a very big mistake. And it fits exactly in the schedule > for lenny. >Sorry, but have you looked at the schedule? To fit on it it should been _already_ uploaded since weeks ago. Release terms in debian still means what they are supposed to mean. Ana [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telepathy_(software)
It seems like we are agreeing to disagree. What''s the way to get on from here? Having the rest of the people in Uploaders speak up? Vote? Let the issue rest and ship current packages being worse than we shipped in etch? On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:52:10 +0200, Ana Guerrero <ana at debian.org> wrote:> On Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 12:47:54AM +0200, Sune Vuorela wrote: >> On Thursday 05 June 2008, Ana Guerrero wrote:> One only man 15-25h weekly is not enough for all the testing that needsto> be > done, all the answering/checking bug reports, check uploads, read mailing > list > related etc. (I have not seen here more people promising devote time to > this > goal)And you are the only one offered to work for kde3 desktop on the maillists. KDE3 needs more time than you can dedicate. And we still need to get opinion from the rest of the people doing the actual work. We so far only heard from people subscribed to the maillist, but not really spending time on kde packaging.> Once kde 4.1 would be in unstable it is a fight against time and almost > all > week are hard to be in VAC if you want this in lenny, but the week 31 is > from > 28 July to 3 august, is *really* bad timing.. do you plan upload kde 4.1 > to > unstable before leaving (release is 29th july) then do not be around for > fixing all the possible stuff you could have broken and not handling all > the > issues that prevent a quick migration to testing?I do plan to have other parts of the team to be around, but I so hope for them to speak up.>> Kde4 shows new ways of thingking the desktop which I feel is really >> interesting and worth to be spreading out as soon as possible. >> > > And people should have the option of switch to KDE 4.1 if they want to, > you > want to force them.We need to force them one day. I think that one day has come.> Build dependencies won''t be a big deal in the big picture, true.Exactly. So why mention them in the first place, unless you try to grasp every straw in a FUD''ish way to get it your way ?> And how your personal opinion about koffice1 sucking matters here? > (matters in > releasing with kde4.1 vs kde 3.5.9).How does koffice not being ready matter at all ?> Again, from your personal user-case. I only said some apps that firstcame> to my > mind. For example, I do miss in that list kbiff, i do use it. And every > user > you ask will miss any KDE 3 app there, sometimes because there is notreal> equivalent in KDE 4, sometimes because it is unknown for them.You have plasmobiff instead. Yay for plasma.>> > -Some arches do not like KDE 4 >> > Let''s keep this short: KDE 4 needs to be built in all the release > archs, >> > and it actually does not. >> >> It is only hppa. It should be possible to get someone to fix it. >> (and it isn''t autobuild on arm* platforms, but I have pretty good faith > in >> that it builds there - and most possible build failures on arm* are > related to >> qreal vs double, so easy fixable) >> > > Still, something to needs be worked on. And you said some days ago by IRC > clearly it was not your problem, or something like that...Well - if porters doesn''t care about Qt and KDE on their archs, I have a really hard time figuring out why I should care. But well. Debian hppa porters doesn''t think they can support stable releases, but hppa get released anyway, so maybe we should just ship fully empty packages on hppa and be done with it?> Sorry, but have you looked at the schedule? To fit on it it should been > _already_ uploaded since weeks ago. Release terms in debian still means > what > they are supposed to mean.Yes. I have looked in the schedule. We have 6 weeks from kde4.1 release to debian release. THat''s great. /Sune
Raúl Sánchez Siles
2008-Jun-06 17:48 UTC
[pkg-kde-talk]Re: KDE version in Lenny: KDE 3.5.9 vs KDE 4.1
Hello Dear packagers, contributors and general public: I chose this e-mail to answer because I think it''s the most comprehensive for the moment so I can remind of what topics to explain. As you know or you don''t (since you are not forced to) I have devoted not much but a little time to Debian, one of my passions. This is like this because I, unfortunately, don''t have much spare time. Like the rest of you I guess ;) El Viernes, 6 de Junio de 2008, Sune Vuorela escribi?:> It seems like we are agreeing to disagree. What''s the way to get on from > here? Having the rest of the people in Uploaders speak up? > Vote? Let the issue rest and ship current packages being worse than we > shipped in etch?I think the most supporters/voluteers option is to be adopted.> > On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:52:10 +0200, Ana Guerrero <ana at debian.org> wrote: > > On Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 12:47:54AM +0200, Sune Vuorela wrote: > >> On Thursday 05 June 2008, Ana Guerrero wrote: > > > > One only man 15-25h weekly is not enough for all the testing that needs > > to > > > be > > done, all the answering/checking bug reports, check uploads, read mailing > > list > > related etc. (I have not seen here more people promising devote time to > > this > > goal) > > And you are the only one offered to work for kde3 desktop on the maillists. > KDE3 needs more time than you can dedicate. >Calm down guys... relax... breathe... take your time. Enjoy Debian! ;)> And we still need to get opinion from the rest of the people doing the > actual work. We so far only heard from people subscribed to the maillist, > but not really spending time on kde packaging.I volunteer to work on KDE3. It''s my main desktop for the moment, at both home and work, even I do some kde4 tests, I don''t think I''ll move to kde4 till it gives me more confidence. I''m also sure that we can cheat... errr convince some more people to go on with the final steps for kde3 into lenny. I think KDE3 is the less work demanding option. I can review BTS, for example and if some guidelines are set I may also take some other responsibiities.> > > Once kde 4.1 would be in unstable it is a fight against time and almost > > all > > week are hard to be in VAC if you want this in lenny, but the week 31 is > > from > > 28 July to 3 august, is *really* bad timing.. do you plan upload kde 4.1 > > to > > unstable before leaving (release is 29th july) then do not be around for > > fixing all the possible stuff you could have broken and not handling all > > the > > issues that prevent a quick migration to testing? > > I do plan to have other parts of the team to be around, but I so hope for > them to speak up.AFAIK, there have been people who expressed that are not going to work towards KDE3 on Lenny, but haven''t taken responsibility to introduce KDE4 .1 on Lenny, except you.> > >> Kde4 shows new ways of thingking the desktop which I feel is really > >> interesting and worth to be spreading out as soon as possible. > > > > And people should have the option of switch to KDE 4.1 if they want to, > > you > > want to force them. > > We need to force them one day. I think that one day has come. >Provided the kDE 4.1 state and Debian''s "stable" concept I think we should persuade those people who want to work with a "work in progress" desktop (in some areas) to use testing rather than stable. Where KDE4 can be available very soon after lenny release. Moreover, wasn''t Debian about freedom? :P> > Build dependencies won''t be a big deal in the big picture, true. > > Exactly. So why mention them in the first place, unless you try to grasp > every straw in a FUD''ish way to get it your way ? > > > And how your personal opinion about koffice1 sucking matters here? > > (matters in > > releasing with kde4.1 vs kde 3.5.9). > > How does koffice not being ready matter at all ?Why was it released on etch then? Koffice1 is the readiest office suite that K is able to offer, or are you considering Koffice2?. If you think it''s not ready, then let''s kill it from Lenny completely.> > > Again, from your personal user-case. I only said some apps that first > > came > > > to my > > mind. For example, I do miss in that list kbiff, i do use it. And every > > user > > you ask will miss any KDE 3 app there, sometimes because there is not > > real > > > equivalent in KDE 4, sometimes because it is unknown for them. > > You have plasmobiff instead. Yay for plasma.Even if there is a direct replacement for everything, which I doubt, their stability/readibilty is in question.> > >> > -Some arches do not like KDE 4 > >> > Let''s keep this short: KDE 4 needs to be built in all the release > > > > archs, > > > >> > and it actually does not. > >> > >> It is only hppa. It should be possible to get someone to fix it. > >> (and it isn''t autobuild on arm* platforms, but I have pretty good faith > > > > in > > > >> that it builds there - and most possible build failures on arm* are > > > > related to > > > >> qreal vs double, so easy fixable) > > > > Still, something to needs be worked on. And you said some days ago by IRC > > clearly it was not your problem, or something like that... > > Well - if porters doesn''t care about Qt and KDE on their archs, I have a > really hard time figuring out why I should care. But well. Debian hppa > porters doesn''t think they can support stable releases, but hppa get > released anyway, so maybe we should just ship fully empty packages on hppa > and be done with it?That''s a little odd. Don''t you think? I''d bet for the Pino position, reporting this back to KDE.> > > Sorry, but have you looked at the schedule? To fit on it it should been > > _already_ uploaded since weeks ago. Release terms in debian still means > > what > > they are supposed to mean. > > Yes. I have looked in the schedule. We have 6 weeks from kde4.1 release to > debian release. THat''s great. > > /SuneBeing Debian and KDE mostly voluntary powered projects, I don''t think 6 weeks is enough. Even more when kde4 is not on unstable yet. What can be resources devoted to KDE4 into Lenny for those 6 weeks? How much testing could be done? How much user base would be ready to test KDE on those weeks? Honestly I think, on how things like are now, KDE 3.5.9 in Lenny is the right decision. I''d also love to see KDE 4.1 into it, but that''s not realistic. KDE4.1 hasn''t been tested enough, it hasn''t even released yet, and it features lots of new (ported) stuff. It also lacks some functionallities, which people used to KDE3 will miss. BTW, I do think kde4 development platform has to be available on Lenny, of course. It''s a real pity Lenny hasn''t been released on the first half of this year (according to KDE release schedule), but life''s like this. Fortunately, once Lenny is released, KDE 4.1 will hopefully be ready on testing real soon. Thanks for your work and your reading. -- Ra?l S?nchez Siles ----->Proud Debian user<----- Linux registered user #416098 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-kde-talk/attachments/20080606/0f928356/attachment.pgp
2008/6/6 Peter Eisentraut <peter_e at gmx.net>:> Just take a look around any of the various bug lists for KDE, in Debian or > upstream. How many months or years of testing do you think it took to find > these? Considering that KDE 4 is pretty much new software, you should plan > on spending that much testing time for it as well. And I don''t believe that > time has already been spent, despite all the prereleasing and so on. So in > my mind the proposed plan to upload hitherto unreleased software in the last > minute before the OS release is quite foolish. > > Keep in mind that KDE is going to be used by a lot of otherwise > computer-illiterate users. There are a lot of corporate and government users > that are very conservative and need robust functionality and upgrade paths. > Things like icons being misrendered, MIME types not being properly connected, > the apparent requirement to mix some KDE 3 and 4 applications -- yes, all > these things are probably fixable and can be tolerated by an experienced > user. But if KDE+Debian is supposed to be "The Linux Desktop", which it is > well on its way to being, then these problems, which are numerious in KDE 4, > should not be tolerated.Hi, With my user hat on, I totally agree with this. I''ve already asked other KDE users too, and they also seem to agree that, while KDE4 will be great in the future, it''s not ready for a stable release yet. It will be great to have it optionally available for those that want to test it, and probably those will want to upgrade to 4.2 as soon as it is out anyway, so they''ll probably decide to go for backports soon. I expect from Debian stable to be stable enough for a production system, and to have a robust functionality. KDE4 might be cooler, but I think KDE3 satisfies my needs better right now. Most of the people (advanced users using different distributions) I''ve asked about it seem to think the same. In fact, most of them have tried KDE 4.1 and switched back to KDE 3 for their normal usage. I guess most of the people expect real stability from a Debian stable release. Remember when we released xfree instead of xorg because it wasn''t ready yet, even though the rest of the distros had already released xorg? xfree was the most conservative and sensible option then, even though xorg was fancier. I think that Ana''s proposal ("My proposal is release with "old" reliable KDE 3.5.9 not forcing anyone to update to KDE 4.1, and just provide 4.1.x "official" backports. So whose who want to use KDE 4.1 will just use the backports and besides") is quite sensible and logical. I personally would prefer to be able to use KDE 3 for the moment until KDE 4 is ready. Greetings, Miry
Hi, Maybe a bit late in the talk. Well, I''ll express my opinion anyway ;) stable users deserve a stable, well tested, rock solid KDE desktop. KDE 4.1 is fine for power users and early KDE 4 adopters. It contains some minor glitches and is not a complete KDE3 replacement yet. Despite the fact that I would like to see KDE 4.1 in Lenny, we must stay reasonable. Ana''s proposal seems more reasonable. I like the idea to propose KDE4 to our stable users from an official repository (whatever it is: backports, etc...). People have choice and could use KDE 4 when it will be ready. I guess some people will not be happy (including myself) but it is the right thing to do IMHO. cheers, Fathi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-kde-talk/attachments/20080609/c406fd25/attachment.htm
On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 10:03:50PM +0200, Ana Guerrero wrote:> proposal is shipping KDE 3.5.9 with the KDE 4.1 development > platform: kde4libs, kdepimlibs and kdebase-runtime. >For the record, after quick talk in IRC, we are finally going for KDE 3.5.9 in Lenny. Ana