Hello, With avahi''s arrival in Sid, the KDE team is enabling zeroconf support in our packages. The new KDE zeroconf-related package, kdnssd, allows users to browse zeroconf-accessible resources, and so should probably depend on (or at least Recommend/Suggest) enough packages to create a reasonable default zeroconf setup for users. Not being too knowledgeable about zeroconf (and not able to test it very well, at the moment), I was hoping you could advise us on what to depend/recommend/suggest for kdnssd. kdnssd needs avahi-daemon to function at all. avahi-daemon recommends your libnss-mdns; presumably these two packages would be a sensible core zeroconf setup for kdnssd to depend on (right?). libnss-mdns recommends the package ''zeroconf'' as well. It runs in the background, which is something I''d rather not have too many packages do, if they''re not critical; but libnss-mdns does recommend it... what do you suggest? Any other packages we should Depend/Suggest/Recommend? avahi-dnsconfd, etc.? Any advice would be much appreciated. One last thing you might know about. http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-index.php?page=Zeroconf+in+KDE states that /etc/nsswitch.conf should have ''mdns'' on the hosts line _before_ ''dns''. Yet on my system, mdns comes _after_ by default (this was added due to bug #324954. Is this a problem? Thanks, Christopher Martin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 249 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-kde-talk/attachments/20060114/b9d8ad6d/attachment.pgp
Hi Christopher, On Sat, Jan 14, 2006 at 01:10:05PM -0500, Christopher Martin wrote:> Hello, > > With avahi''s arrival in Sid, the KDE team is enabling zeroconf support in > our packages. The new KDE zeroconf-related package, kdnssd, allows users to > browse zeroconf-accessible resources, and so should probably depend on (or > at least Recommend/Suggest) enough packages to create a reasonable default > zeroconf setup for users. Not being too knowledgeable about zeroconf (and > not able to test it very well, at the moment), I was hoping you could > advise us on what to depend/recommend/suggest for kdnssd.No problem, I''ve also CC''d Lennart Poettering who can no doubt also provide some guidance.> kdnssd needs avahi-daemon to function at all. avahi-daemon recommends your > libnss-mdns;avahi doesn''t need libnss-mdns, and nor does libnss-mdns but if both are installed libnss-mdns will use avahi for caching purposes. You want to have libnss-mdns installed for applications which may not (indeed ever) link directly to avahi, e.g. telnet; that way things like ''telnet foo.local'' will work.> presumably these two packages would be a sensible core > zeroconf setup for kdnssd to depend on (right?). libnss-mdns recommends the > package ''zeroconf'' as well. It runs in the background, which is something > I''d rather not have too many packages do, if they''re not critical; but > libnss-mdns does recommend it... what do you suggest?well ''zeroconf'' performs the link-local address allocation, which you definately need. I have a 0.7 version that I''m testing that should address most of the current bugs against it. I hope to have it ready to upload later this week.> Any other packages we should Depend/Suggest/Recommend? avahi-dnsconfd, etc.? > Any advice would be much appreciated. > > One last thing you might know about. > http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-index.php?page=Zeroconf+in+KDE states > that /etc/nsswitch.conf should have ''mdns'' on the hosts line _before_ > ''dns''. Yet on my system, mdns comes _after_ by default (this was added due > to bug #324954. Is this a problem?Well, I think it should be: hosts: file mdns dns because this prevents the local DNS from seeing queries to the ''.local'' zone; however it could slow things done as the NSS sub-system waits for mdns to return a response (which, from memory can take 3 seconds). I myself have things set to: hosts: files dns mdns but I defer to Lennart''s opinion on this (perhaps worth following up to bug#324954 as well). Anand -- `When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, "This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know," the end result is tyranny and oppression no matter how holy the motives'' -- Robert A Heinlein, "If this goes on --" -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-kde-talk/attachments/20060118/3f23d442/attachment.pgp
On Wed, 18.01.06 03:23, Anand Kumria (wildfire@progsoc.org) wrote:> > kdnssd needs avahi-daemon to function at all. avahi-daemon recommends your > > libnss-mdns; > > avahi doesn''t need libnss-mdns, and nor does libnss-mdns but if both are > installed libnss-mdns will use avahi for caching purposes. > > You want to have libnss-mdns installed for applications which may not > (indeed ever) link directly to avahi, e.g. telnet; that way things like > ''telnet foo.local'' will work.I don''t know how kdnssd works internally, but it might *require* libnss-mdns to work sensibly. Better ask Jakub Stachowski about that. I''ll forward this Email to him.> > presumably these two packages would be a sensible core > > zeroconf setup for kdnssd to depend on (right?). libnss-mdns recommends the > > package ''zeroconf'' as well. It runs in the background, which is something > > I''d rather not have too many packages do, if they''re not critical; but > > libnss-mdns does recommend it... what do you suggest? > > well ''zeroconf'' performs the link-local address allocation, which you > definately need. I have a 0.7 version that I''m testing that > should address most of the current bugs against it. I hope to have it > ready to upload later this week.I don''t think kdednssd should depend on "zeroconf". If it all, a Suggest or Recommend should suffice. In addition I don''t think that kdednssd should depend even on avahi-daemon. The avahi client libraries return a proper error code when no running daemon is found, so in case kdednssd becomes a hard dependency of the KDE desktop and people don''t like DNS-SD, they don''t need to install the daemon.> > Any other packages we should Depend/Suggest/Recommend? avahi-dnsconfd, etc.? > > Any advice would be much appreciated.My suggestion is to depend on avahi-client. And suggest/recommend avahi-daemon and libnss-mdns. However, since avahi-client recommends avahi-daemon, and avahi-daemon in turn recommends libnss-mdns you may even omit those suggest/recommend lines entirely. Hence i would suggest to just add a dependency to avahi-client and that''s it. (Unless Jakub says that libnss-mdns is required for avahi-kdnssd to work properly, in which case you should add another hard dep on that.)> > One last thing you might know about. > > http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-index.php?page=Zeroconf+in+KDE states > > that /etc/nsswitch.conf should have ''mdns'' on the hosts line _before_ > > ''dns''. Yet on my system, mdns comes _after_ by default (this was added due > > to bug #324954. Is this a problem? > > Well, I think it should be: > > hosts: file mdns dnsI think it should be "file mdns4 dns". Someone should file a bug about this.> because this prevents the local DNS from seeing queries to the ''.local'' > zone; however it could slow things done as the NSS sub-system waits for > mdns to return a response (which, from memory can take 3 seconds).By default, nss-mdns will only lookup services in the ".local" zone. Hence this would not result in any significant delay for normal (unicast DNS) name lookups. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering; lennart [at] poettering [dot] net ICQ# 11060553; GPG 0x1A015CC4; http://0pointer.net/lennart/
Dnia wtorek, 17 stycznia 2006 18:24, Lennart Poettering napisa?:> On Wed, 18.01.06 03:23, Anand Kumria (wildfire@progsoc.org) wrote: > > > kdnssd needs avahi-daemon to function at all. avahi-daemon recommends > > > your libnss-mdns; > > > > avahi doesn''t need libnss-mdns, and nor does libnss-mdns but if both are > > installed libnss-mdns will use avahi for caching purposes. > > > > You want to have libnss-mdns installed for applications which may not > > (indeed ever) link directly to avahi, e.g. telnet; that way things like > > ''telnet foo.local'' will work. > > I don''t know how kdnssd works internally, but it might *require* > libnss-mdns to work sensibly. Better ask Jakub Stachowski about > that. I''ll forward this Email to him.For discovering services it won''t do too much without libnss-mdns because kdnssd-avahi does not even try to resolve hostname.local address and just hands it to application. Without libnssd-mdns application won''t be able to resolve it.> > > > presumably these two packages would be a sensible core > > > zeroconf setup for kdnssd to depend on (right?). libnss-mdns recommends > > > the package ''zeroconf'' as well. It runs in the background, which is > > > something I''d rather not have too many packages do, if they''re not > > > critical; but libnss-mdns does recommend it... what do you suggest? > > > > well ''zeroconf'' performs the link-local address allocation, which you > > definately need. I have a 0.7 version that I''m testing that > > should address most of the current bugs against it. I hope to have it > > ready to upload later this week. > > I don''t think kdednssd should depend on "zeroconf". If it all, a > Suggest or Recommend should suffice. > > In addition I don''t think that kdednssd should depend even on > avahi-daemon. The avahi client libraries return a proper error code > when no running daemon is found, so in case kdednssd becomes a hard > dependency of the KDE desktop and people don''t like DNS-SD, they don''t > need to install the daemon.True. All publishing/discovery operations will just report failure and that''s all.> > > > Any other packages we should Depend/Suggest/Recommend? avahi-dnsconfd, > > > etc.? Any advice would be much appreciated. > > My suggestion is to depend on avahi-client. And suggest/recommend > avahi-daemon and libnss-mdns. However, since avahi-client recommends > avahi-daemon, and avahi-daemon in turn recommends libnss-mdns you may > even omit those suggest/recommend lines entirely. > > Hence i would suggest to just add a dependency to avahi-client and > that''s it. > > (Unless Jakub says that libnss-mdns is required for avahi-kdnssd to > work properly, in which case you should add another hard dep on that.)I''m not sure about Depends and Recommends policy but applications using kdnssd-avahi will be really crippled without libnss-mdns - they won''t be able to use discovered services at all.> > > > One last thing you might know about. > > > http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-index.php?page=Zeroconf+in+KDE states > > > that /etc/nsswitch.conf should have ''mdns'' on the hosts line _before_ > > > ''dns''. Yet on my system, mdns comes _after_ by default (this was added > > > due to bug #324954. Is this a problem? > > > > Well, I think it should be: > > > > hosts: file mdns dns > > I think it should be "file mdns4 dns". Someone should file a bug about > this. > > > because this prevents the local DNS from seeing queries to the ''.local'' > > zone; however it could slow things done as the NSS sub-system waits for > > mdns to return a response (which, from memory can take 3 seconds). > > By default, nss-mdns will only lookup services in the ".local" > zone. Hence this would not result in any significant delay for normal > (unicast DNS) name lookups.And in my case (slow link) it helps to avoid unicast DNS questions for .local> > Lennart
So, in summary: kdnssd should depend on: avahi-client, libnss-mdns and recommend: avahi-daemon and either suggest or recommend: zeroconf Anand On Tue, Jan 17, 2006 at 06:56:16PM +0100, Jakub Stachowski wrote:> Dnia wtorek, 17 stycznia 2006 18:24, Lennart Poettering napisa?: > > On Wed, 18.01.06 03:23, Anand Kumria (wildfire@progsoc.org) wrote: > > > > kdnssd needs avahi-daemon to function at all. avahi-daemon recommends > > > > your libnss-mdns; > > > > > > avahi doesn''t need libnss-mdns, and nor does libnss-mdns but if both are > > > installed libnss-mdns will use avahi for caching purposes. > > > > > > You want to have libnss-mdns installed for applications which may not > > > (indeed ever) link directly to avahi, e.g. telnet; that way things like > > > ''telnet foo.local'' will work. > > > > I don''t know how kdnssd works internally, but it might *require* > > libnss-mdns to work sensibly. Better ask Jakub Stachowski about > > that. I''ll forward this Email to him. > > For discovering services it won''t do too much without libnss-mdns because > kdnssd-avahi does not even try to resolve hostname.local address and just > hands it to application. Without libnssd-mdns application won''t be able to > resolve it. > > > > > > > presumably these two packages would be a sensible core > > > > zeroconf setup for kdnssd to depend on (right?). libnss-mdns recommends > > > > the package ''zeroconf'' as well. It runs in the background, which is > > > > something I''d rather not have too many packages do, if they''re not > > > > critical; but libnss-mdns does recommend it... what do you suggest? > > > > > > well ''zeroconf'' performs the link-local address allocation, which you > > > definately need. I have a 0.7 version that I''m testing that > > > should address most of the current bugs against it. I hope to have it > > > ready to upload later this week. > > > > I don''t think kdednssd should depend on "zeroconf". If it all, a > > Suggest or Recommend should suffice. > > > > In addition I don''t think that kdednssd should depend even on > > avahi-daemon. The avahi client libraries return a proper error code > > when no running daemon is found, so in case kdednssd becomes a hard > > dependency of the KDE desktop and people don''t like DNS-SD, they don''t > > need to install the daemon. > > True. All publishing/discovery operations will just report failure and that''s > all. > > > > > > Any other packages we should Depend/Suggest/Recommend? avahi-dnsconfd, > > > > etc.? Any advice would be much appreciated. > > > > My suggestion is to depend on avahi-client. And suggest/recommend > > avahi-daemon and libnss-mdns. However, since avahi-client recommends > > avahi-daemon, and avahi-daemon in turn recommends libnss-mdns you may > > even omit those suggest/recommend lines entirely. > > > > Hence i would suggest to just add a dependency to avahi-client and > > that''s it. > > > > (Unless Jakub says that libnss-mdns is required for avahi-kdnssd to > > work properly, in which case you should add another hard dep on that.) > > I''m not sure about Depends and Recommends policy but applications using > kdnssd-avahi will be really crippled without libnss-mdns - they won''t be able > to use discovered services at all. > > > > > > > One last thing you might know about. > > > > http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-index.php?page=Zeroconf+in+KDE states > > > > that /etc/nsswitch.conf should have ''mdns'' on the hosts line _before_ > > > > ''dns''. Yet on my system, mdns comes _after_ by default (this was added > > > > due to bug #324954. Is this a problem? > > > > > > Well, I think it should be: > > > > > > hosts: file mdns dns > > > > I think it should be "file mdns4 dns". Someone should file a bug about > > this. > > > > > because this prevents the local DNS from seeing queries to the ''.local'' > > > zone; however it could slow things done as the NSS sub-system waits for > > > mdns to return a response (which, from memory can take 3 seconds). > > > > By default, nss-mdns will only lookup services in the ".local" > > zone. Hence this would not result in any significant delay for normal > > (unicast DNS) name lookups. > > And in my case (slow link) it helps to avoid unicast DNS questions for .local > > > > > Lennart-- `When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, "This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know," the end result is tyranny and oppression no matter how holy the motives'' -- Robert A Heinlein, "If this goes on --"
On Tue, 17.01.06 18:24, Lennart Poettering (lennart@poettering.net) wrote:> > Well, I think it should be: > > > > hosts: file mdns dns > > I think it should be "file mdns4 dns". Someone should file a bug about this.Apparently now both Anand and me filed bugs about this: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=348578 http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=348580 Could someone who knows the Debian BTS better than I do look into merging those two bugs? Related to the original cause of this thread: have you thought about integrating kdednssd-avahi into the core KDE packages like the Ubuntu people did? It think it makes a lot of sense, as does Jakub who originally proposed this on Avahi''s IRC channel. Thank you, Lennart -- Lennart Poettering; lennart [at] poettering [dot] net ICQ# 11060553; GPG 0x1A015CC4; http://0pointer.net/lennart/
merge 348578 348580 thanks On Tuesday 17 January 2006 21:25, Lennart Poettering wrote:> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=348578 > http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=348580 > > Could someone who knows the Debian BTS better than I do look into merging > those two bugs?Sure. /Sune -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-kde-talk/attachments/20060117/9725e9c9/attachment.pgp
On Tuesday 17 January 2006 14:36, Anand Kumria wrote:> So, in summary: > > kdnssd should depend on: > avahi-client, libnss-mdns > and recommend: > avahi-daemon > and either suggest or recommend: > zeroconfThat seems quite reasonable. There is no avahi-client package in Debian, however, so if you''re referring to a client executable, it must be stashed in another package. There is libavahi-client3, though, containing the avahi client library. If that''s what you are referring to by the "avahi-client", then kdnssd should be happy, since kdnssd depends on kdelibs4c2a, which now depends on libavahi-client3 anyway. Thanks for your help, Christopher Martin
On Tuesday 17 January 2006 15:25, Lennart Poettering wrote:> On Tue, 17.01.06 18:24, Lennart Poettering (lennart@poettering.net) wrote: > > > Well, I think it should be: > > > > > > hosts: file mdns dns > > > > I think it should be "file mdns4 dns". Someone should file a bug about > > this. > > Apparently now both Anand and me filed bugs about this: > > http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=348578 > http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=348580 > > Could someone who knows the Debian BTS better than I do look into merging > those two bugs?Done.> Related to the original cause of this thread: have you thought about > integrating kdednssd-avahi into the core KDE packages like the Ubuntu > people did? It think it makes a lot of sense, as does Jakub who > originally proposed this on Avahi''s IRC channel.We''ve patched kdelibs to use avahi, so any user who installs the Debian package kdnssd will get avahi zeroconf ability. I think this is the same approach that Ubuntu took. Another thing on my general TODO is to reform the default packages installed by the Debian installer. I''d definitely consider including kdnssd in the default KDE install. Thanks for your help. Christopher Martin
On Tue, 17.01.06 17:23, Christopher Martin (chrsmrtn@debian.org) wrote:> > On Tuesday 17 January 2006 14:36, Anand Kumria wrote: > > So, in summary: > > > > kdnssd should depend on: > > avahi-client, libnss-mdns > > and recommend: > > avahi-daemon > > and either suggest or recommend: > > zeroconf > > That seems quite reasonable. There is no avahi-client package in Debian, > however, so if you''re referring to a client executable, it must be stashed > in another package. There is libavahi-client3, though, containing the avahi > client library. If that''s what you are referring to by the "avahi-client",Yes, avahi-client means libavahi-client3. Lennart -- Lennart Poettering; lennart [at] poettering [dot] net ICQ# 11060553; GPG 0x1A015CC4; http://0pointer.net/lennart/
On Tuesday 17 January 2006 23:22, Christopher Martin wrote:> > Related to the original cause of this thread: have you thought about > > integrating kdednssd-avahi into the core KDE packages like the Ubuntu > > people did? It think it makes a lot of sense, as does Jakub who > > originally proposed this on Avahi''s IRC channel. > > We''ve patched kdelibs to use avahi, so any user who installs the Debian > package kdnssd will get avahi zeroconf ability. I think this is the same > approach that Ubuntu took.Ubuntu just packaged kdnssd-avahi as a separate package which provided libkdnssd.so and made kdelibs4 not provide it. Ubuntu usually tries to "sync" with Debian, so may be they have switched to our approach now. Best regards
On Wed, Jan 18, 2006 at 08:08:13AM +0100, Isaac Clerencia wrote:> On Tuesday 17 January 2006 23:22, Christopher Martin wrote: > > > Related to the original cause of this thread: have you thought about > > > integrating kdednssd-avahi into the core KDE packages like the Ubuntu > > > people did? It think it makes a lot of sense, as does Jakub who > > > originally proposed this on Avahi''s IRC channel. > > > > We''ve patched kdelibs to use avahi, so any user who installs the Debian > > package kdnssd will get avahi zeroconf ability. I think this is the same > > approach that Ubuntu took. > Ubuntu just packaged kdnssd-avahi as a separate package which provided > libkdnssd.so and made kdelibs4 not provide it. Ubuntu usually tries to "sync" > with Debian, so may be they have switched to our approach now.Yes, I switched to using Isaac''s patch. Jonathan