I looked for exim4.conf locate exim4.conf and got this output /etc/exim4/exim4.conf.template /etc/exim4/update-exim4.conf.conf /usr/sbin/update-exim4.conf /usr/sbin/update-exim4.conf.template /usr/share/man/man8/update-exim4.conf.8.gz /usr/share/man/man8/update-exim4.conf.template.8.gz I think this means I do not have an exim4.conf file which is consistent with the fact that I could not install exim4 and so did not go through the installation procedure that normally happens at install. To be sure I took a look at the exim4 dir in /etc drz@ESFServer:~$ cd /etc/exim4 drz@ESFServer:/etc/exim4$ ls -l total 84 drwxr-xr-x 9 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 conf.d -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 67073 2006-02-22 05:49 exim4.conf.template -rw-r----- 1 root Debian-exim 1042 2006-02-22 05:49 passwd.client -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1026 2006-03-25 00:37 update-exim4.conf.conf I kept looking drz@ESFServer:/etc/exim4$ cd conf.d drz@ESFServer:/etc/exim4/conf.d$ ls -l total 28 drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 acl drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 auth drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 main drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 retry drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 rewrite drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 router drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 transport I took a quick look in these dirs and it did not look like anything important. I am tempted to try a totally new install since I do not have any real data on the server. Bob Zenhausern Enabling Support Foundation www.enabling.org
On Sun, Apr 02, 2006 at 04:17:32PM -0500, Bob Zenhausern wrote:> I looked for exim4.conf > locate exim4.conf > > and got this output > > /etc/exim4/exim4.conf.template > /etc/exim4/update-exim4.conf.conf > /usr/sbin/update-exim4.conf > /usr/sbin/update-exim4.conf.template > /usr/share/man/man8/update-exim4.conf.8.gz > /usr/share/man/man8/update-exim4.conf.template.8.gz > > I think this means I do not have an exim4.conf file which is... the documented normal case for Debian''s exim4 packages. I strongly suggest reading the documentation that came with Debian''s exim4 pacakges.> drz@ESFServer:/etc/exim4$ cd conf.d > drz@ESFServer:/etc/exim4/conf.d$ ls -l > total 28 > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 acl > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 auth > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 main > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 retry > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 rewrite > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 router > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 transport > > I took a quick look in these dirs and it did not look like anything > important.If you consider one way to automatically obtain the default configuration as "not important", you''re right. Read. the. docs. Greetings Marc -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don''t trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Mannheim, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 621 72739834 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 621 72739835
On Sun, 2006-04-02 at 16:17 -0500, Bob Zenhausern wrote:> I looked for exim4.conf > locate exim4.conf > and got this output > > /etc/exim4/exim4.conf.template > /etc/exim4/update-exim4.conf.conf > /usr/sbin/update-exim4.conf > /usr/sbin/update-exim4.conf.template > /usr/share/man/man8/update-exim4.conf.8.gz > /usr/share/man/man8/update-exim4.conf.template.8.gzThis is part of the problem with the debian package, there are too many weird files! I mean update-exim4.conf.conf? That is a really bad name. This is the reason I use the tar file from exim''s web site and do not use the package under debian.> I think this means I do not have an exim4.conf file which is consistent > with the fact that I could not install exim4 and so did not go through the > installation procedure that normally happens at install. > > To be sure I took a look at the exim4 dir in /etc > > drz@ESFServer:~$ cd /etc/exim4 > drz@ESFServer:/etc/exim4$ ls -l > total 84 > drwxr-xr-x 9 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 conf.d > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 67073 2006-02-22 05:49 exim4.conf.template > -rw-r----- 1 root Debian-exim 1042 2006-02-22 05:49 passwd.client > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1026 2006-03-25 00:37 update-exim4.conf.conf > > I kept looking > > drz@ESFServer:/etc/exim4$ cd conf.d > drz@ESFServer:/etc/exim4/conf.d$ ls -l > total 28 > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 acl > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 auth > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 main > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 retry > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 rewrite > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 router > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2006-03-25 00:37 transport > > I took a quick look in these dirs and it did not look like anything > important. > > I am tempted to try a totally new install since I do not have any real > data on the server.Personally I think this is a good idea for two reasons: 1. It is easier to install the exim package from exim directly and not have to mess with the debian set up. 2. You can use the exim mailing list for help. (exim users <exim-users@exim.org>) The exim mailing list has some pretty seasoned professionals so you are sure to get good help there and the traffic on the mailinglist is much higher. I am sure there are people who would disagree with me however, so take my advice as just one opinion amongst many. Jeremiah
On 2006-04-03 Jeremiah Foster <jeremiah.foster@gmail.com> wrote:> On Sun, 2006-04-02 at 16:17 -0500, Bob Zenhausern wrote: > > I looked for exim4.conf > > locate exim4.conf > > and got this output > > > > /etc/exim4/exim4.conf.template > > /etc/exim4/update-exim4.conf.conf > > /usr/sbin/update-exim4.conf > > /usr/sbin/update-exim4.conf.template > > /usr/share/man/man8/update-exim4.conf.8.gz > > /usr/share/man/man8/update-exim4.conf.template.8.gz> This is part of the problem with the debian package, there are too many > weird files! I mean update-exim4.conf.conf? That is a really bad name. > This is the reason I use the tar file from exim''s web site and do not > use the package under debian.In that case you are using the tar file from exim''s web site for the wrong reason. Install the debian package, throw your handcrafted configuration into /etc/exim4/exim4.conf and the whole Debian "magic" is switched off. [...]> > I am tempted to try a totally new install since I do not have any real > > data on the server.> Personally I think this is a good idea for two reasons:> 1. It is easier to install the exim package from exim directly > and not have to mess with the debian set up.BS. Compare: apt-get install exim4-daemon-heavy $EDITOR /etc/exim4/exim4.conf with download tarball setup EDITME, selecting the wanted features install build-dependcies compile install $EDITOR /etc/exim4/exim4.conf cu and- am I feeding a troll? -reas -- The ''Galactic Cleaning'' policy undertaken by Emperor Zhark is a personal vision of the emperor''s, and its inclusion in this work does not constitute tacit approval by the author or the publisher for any such projects, howsoever undertaken. (c) Jasper Ffforde
On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 07:30:29PM +0200, Jeremiah Foster wrote:> On Sun, 2006-04-02 at 16:17 -0500, Bob Zenhausern wrote: > > I looked for exim4.conf > > locate exim4.conf > > and got this output > > > > /etc/exim4/exim4.conf.template > > /etc/exim4/update-exim4.conf.conf > > /usr/sbin/update-exim4.conf > > /usr/sbin/update-exim4.conf.template > > /usr/share/man/man8/update-exim4.conf.8.gz > > /usr/share/man/man8/update-exim4.conf.template.8.gz > > This is part of the problem with the debian package, there are too many > weird files! I mean update-exim4.conf.conf? That is a really bad name. > This is the reason I use the tar file from exim''s web site and do not > use the package under debian.That might be fine for you, but it is really really bad advice for the vast majority of the people on this list. Building exim from source needs _much_ more knowledge than installing the Debian package, and getting exim to run from source needs like ten times the documentation study that Debian needs.> > I am tempted to try a totally new install since I do not have any real > > data on the server. > > Personally I think this is a good idea for two reasons:Personally I think this is a bad idea for the following reason: * The Original Poster''s problem is not with exim * The Original Poster''s problem is with Debian''s packaging system * The Original Poster''s system has not even started to set up exim since it breaks at a much earlier stage.> 1. It is easier to install the exim package from exim directly > and not have to mess with the debian set up.I dispute this.> 2. You can use the exim mailing list for help. > (exim users <exim-users@exim.org>)The people on exim-users expect people to be in good control of their OS, which the OP is not.> I am sure there are people who would disagree with me however, > so take my advice as just one opinion amongst many.Jeremiahs advice is bad. I advise ignoring it. Greetings Marc -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don''t trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Mannheim, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 621 72739834 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 621 72739835
Andreas, Just because someone disagrees with you or the debian maintainer does not mean they are a troll. I have discussed the debian exim package with a number of experienced UNIX admins and many agree that they debian exim package is broken. Yours is a typical debian user''s attitude though; use pejorative expletives and name-calling rather than referring to the facts. A quick look at the volume of traffic on the exim mailing list versus this list will show any impartial observer that the vast majority of exim users do not use debian. On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 19:33 +0200, Andreas Metzler wrote:> On 2006-04-03 Jeremiah Foster <jeremiah.foster@gmail.com> wrote:> > Personally I think this is a good idea for two reasons: > > > 1. It is easier to install the exim package from exim directly > > and not have to mess with the debian set up. > > BS. Compare: > > apt-get install exim4-daemon-heavy > $EDITOR /etc/exim4/exim4.conf >You actually left out some steps: answering questions in debconf for example, running update-exim.conf, building /etc/aliases. These things are hard to do when you use the debian package beacause the debian package does not compare in quality or clarity to the exim package.> with > > download tarball > setup EDITME, selecting the wanted features > install build-dependcies > compile > install > $EDITOR /etc/exim4/exim4.conf > > cu and- am I feeding a troll? -reasWhen building from the upstream source one is forced to read the exim docs and therefor one learns much more about exim and how it works. The debian "magic" obscures important information. Jeremiah
On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 09:30:23AM +0200, Jeremiah Foster wrote:> Just because someone disagrees with you or the debian maintainerAndreas _is_ member of the maintainer team and has been its leader for many years.> I have discussed the debian exim package with > a number of experienced UNIX admins and many agree that they debian exim > package is broken.Experienced UNIX admins tend to frown upon any magic that they didn''t invent themselves.> Yours is a typical debian user''s attitude though; use > pejorative expletives and name-calling rather than referring to the > facts.Why are you using Debian if we suck so badly?> A quick look at the volume of traffic on the exim mailing list > versus this list will show any impartial observer that the vast majority > of exim users do not use debian.Since exim has been Debian''s default MTA for more than six years now, I suspect that our users are the silent majority. But we''re sufficiently different to warrant our own support media. And you are not helping here. Greetings Marc -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don''t trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Mannheim, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 621 72739834 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 621 72739835
On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 19:59 +0200, Marc Haber wrote:> On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 07:30:29PM +0200, Jeremiah Foster wrote: > > > > This is part of the problem with the debian package, there are too many > > weird files! I mean update-exim4.conf.conf? That is a really bad name. > > This is the reason I use the tar file from exim''s web site and do not > > use the package under debian. > > That might be fine for you, but it is really really bad advice for the > vast majority of the people on this list. >You may be right, you may not. I think that I learned more about exim by reading their documentation. Furthermore, you fail to acknowledge the flawed naming scheme, paucity of documentation, and unnecessary complexity of the debian package.> Building exim from source needs _much_ more knowledge than installing > the Debian package, and getting exim to run from source needs like ten > times the documentation study that Debian needs.As many have stated on this list and the exim list, you have to read a lot of documentation before you run a mail server.> > > > I am tempted to try a totally new install since I do not have any real > > > data on the server. > > > > Personally I think this is a good idea for two reasons: > > Personally I think this is a bad idea for the following reason: > * The Original Poster''s problem is not with exim > * The Original Poster''s problem is with Debian''s packaging system > * The Original Poster''s system has not even started to set up exim > since it breaks at a much earlier stage. > > > 1. It is easier to install the exim package from exim directly > > and not have to mess with the debian set up. > > I dispute this. > > > 2. You can use the exim mailing list for help. > > (exim users <exim-users@exim.org>) > > The people on exim-users expect people to be in good control of their > OS, which the OP is not. >You do not know this, you have no right to assume this. You drive people away from debian by being unhelpful and rude when they come to this list with problems, it is not for you to say whether they are sufficiently competent in your eyes. I found much more help from people on the main exim list which is why I tell people to download the package from upstream and use the main exim mailing list. Plus the documentation is simply better. Furthermore, the OP thanked me when his system was up and running, so my goal of trying to help in a pleasant manner may have helped. Jeremiah
On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 09:44:14AM +0200, Jeremiah Foster wrote:> On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 19:59 +0200, Marc Haber wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 07:30:29PM +0200, Jeremiah Foster wrote: > > > This is part of the problem with the debian package, there are too many > > > weird files! I mean update-exim4.conf.conf? That is a really bad name. > > > This is the reason I use the tar file from exim''s web site and do not > > > use the package under debian. > > > > That might be fine for you, but it is really really bad advice for the > > vast majority of the people on this list. > > > You may be right, you may not. I think that I learned more about exim by > reading their documentation.expand "their"> Furthermore, you fail to acknowledge the flawed naming scheme,elaborate please> paucity of documentation,$ < /usr/share/doc/exim4-base/README.Debian.gz gunzip | wc -l 1124 and yet the vast majority of questions asked is already answered in that file. There are also multiple wiki pages regarding the Debian exim 4 packages.> and unnecessary complexity of the debian package.Please explain how things could be done simpler without losing the Debconf configuration, which is required by Debian policy. If you can do it any better, please go ahead and do so. If you can''t do it better, stfu and stop spreading FUD.> > Building exim from source needs _much_ more knowledge than installing > > the Debian package, and getting exim to run from source needs like ten > > times the documentation study that Debian needs. > > As many have stated on this list and the exim list, you have to read a > lot of documentation before you run a mail server.Which is basically correct. However, if you only need to run a very basic service, dpkg-reconfigure exim4-config is all you need, the rest is automatic. If you want to do something we didn''t see fit to include in the debconf scheme, you''ll need to read. And you''re likely to find out that it is quite easy to adapt our configuration to your needs. On the other side, if you build exim from source, you''ll basically start from scratch, configuration-wise, and will need to read even more documentation, and are like to make mistakes that we thought of when preparing our configuration. We have actually thought about things when writing the Debian default config, and I seriously doubt that anybody with less than a year of exim experience is able to produce a configuration which is even in the same quality range. Additionally, as you have been pointed to multiple times in this thread, it is perfectly possible to use your own hand-crafted configuration with the Debian exim4 package. It is all in the docs, and prominently so.> > The people on exim-users expect people to be in good control of their > > OS, which the OP is not. > > > You do not know this, you have no right to assume this.The OP has a problem which is mentioned in the sarge release notes, including a solution. And he refuses to follow the advice given here. I''d call that "not in control of the OS".> You drive people away from debian by being unhelpful and rude when > they come to this list with problems,Asking questions that have answers in the docs is rude of themselves as well.> it is not for you to say whether they are sufficiently competent in > your eyes.I happen to have a little experience with end-users. Please allow me to use my experience to come to judgments. If you want me to leave this list, please say so.> I found much more help from people on the main exim list which is why I > tell people to download the package from upstream and use the main exim > mailing list. Plus the documentation is simply better. > > Furthermore, the OP thanked me when his system was up and running, so my > goal of trying to help in a pleasant manner may have helped.So you have helped him to a locally-built, locally configured exim which will not be updated code- or configuration-wise and will not receive security patches? Well, I''ll call that a tremendously huge disservice. Be proud, not everybody is able to be _that_ counterproductive. Greetings Marc -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don''t trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Mannheim, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 621 72739834 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 621 72739835
On 2006-04-05 Jeremiah Foster <jeremiah.foster@gmail.com> wrote: [...]> A quick look at the volume of traffic on the exim mailing list > versus this list will show any impartial observer that the vast majority > of exim users do not use debian.No, it does not. It shows that Debian specific setup questions are off topic for e-u.> On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 19:33 +0200, Andreas Metzler wrote: > > On 2006-04-03 Jeremiah Foster <jeremiah.foster@gmail.com> wrote:> > > Personally I think this is a good idea for two reasons:> > > 1. It is easier to install the exim package from exim directly > > > and not have to mess with the debian set up.> > BS. Compare:> > apt-get install exim4-daemon-heavy > > $EDITOR /etc/exim4/exim4.conf> You actually left out some steps: answering questions in debconf for > example,About two or three, mainly "No, no debconf configuration, please.".> running update-exim.conf,not necessary (actually a noop), as you are running a hand-carved exim4.conf.> building /etc/aliases.You''ll have a *basic* /etc/aliases after installation of the package (as you would after make install.)> These things > are hard to do when you use the debian package beacause the debian > package does not compare in quality or clarity to the exim package.I cannot parse that. Answering the 2-3 questions is not difficult, running update-exim.conf is unnecessary, and /etc/aliases already exists. So all in all my original comparison holds.> > with > > > > download tarball > > setup EDITME, selecting the wanted features > > install build-dependcies > > compile > > install > > $EDITOR /etc/exim4/exim4.conf > > > > cu and- am I feeding a troll? -reas> When building from the upstream source one is forced to read the exim > docs and therefor one learns much more about exim and how it works. The > debian "magic" obscures important information.That is besides the point, as we are talking of exim /installation/ without using the debian *configuration* magic. cu andreas -- The ''Galactic Cleaning'' policy undertaken by Emperor Zhark is a personal vision of the emperor''s, and its inclusion in this work does not constitute tacit approval by the author or the publisher for any such projects, howsoever undertaken. (c) Jasper Ffforde
On Wed, 2006-04-05 at 09:30 +0200, Jeremiah Foster wrote:> Andreas, > > Just because someone disagrees with you or the debian maintainer does > not mean they are a troll. I have discussed the debian exim package with > a number of experienced UNIX admins and many agree that they debian exim > package is broken.Broken. Hmmm. NOT! You really don''t understand scalability and vhosting very well. I don''t consider myself authoritative on anything, but being a scripting fool (mainly shell, python and some Perl) I can tell you seriously do not understand the importance of seperating things into pieces so you can remove or add things quite easily. Me, I have take the Debian Way and applied it to RedHat, SuSE, Gentoo, OSF1, HPUX, Solaris and even SCO''s crap. I can manage 500 small, for each router that each use the same transport. Imagine changing the ordering of the routers in a single file configuration. Nightmare to do with scripting tools. But, I can renmae the file from (say) 350gregfolkert.net to 200gregfolkert.net and change the ordering in the config file. Vhosting using Exim is so much easier using the Debian small config files, it isn''t even funny.> Yours is a typical debian user''s attitude though; use > pejorative expletives and name-calling rather than referring to the > facts. A quick look at the volume of traffic on the exim mailing list > versus this list will show any impartial observer that the vast majority > of exim users do not use debian.Well, I hate call attention to the fact that Most of the user questions on E-U are of the "Duh, read spec.txt" for the answer. I know I am subscribed as well. You cannot honestly say you have been dealing with 100s maybe 1000s of domains with Exim4 and a single config file. But using 500-600 byte files for each domain in the routers... yes I can, even my customers have zero problm configuring any number of options using the small config files. I do syntax checking on commits and reject if they are bad. With helpful messages. Oh, how about that, there are more Debian users than you could ever realize. How about the fact the the only people coming here are ones that are trying to shoe horn badly setup add-on packages to Debian That say something to the order of "Debian user == STUPID, use my config editing it for you machine" for configuring Debian. If they even ONCE really stopped to think about the modularity the Exim4 packages gove for a Linux machine, I am sure others would begin to see the light. They way you are akinning this whole thing is sort of like the major camp wars of Windows, BSD and Linux. You know Windows RU13Z! Linux Drools! Why use that POS Linux, when Threads are all the Rage in FreeBSD. Oh you found an Exploit in <package>, well we found that 3 months ago during our standard code audits, like we always do in OpenBSD. Dude, Fedora Core Rules! SuSE, is for girls. I''d like to see you point out one of those Distros that have POLICY for Packaging of Programs. Strict QA on that Policy as well. Plus a Software Guide for Developing thse packages and also a Definition of what they do and don''t do. As well as it not being Driven by a buncha Marketing Droids.> On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 19:33 +0200, Andreas Metzler wrote: > > On 2006-04-03 Jeremiah Foster <jeremiah.foster@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Personally I think this is a good idea for two reasons: > > > > > 1. It is easier to install the exim package from exim directly > > > and not have to mess with the debian set up. > > > > BS. Compare: > > > > apt-get install exim4-daemon-heavy > > $EDITOR /etc/exim4/exim4.conf > > > > You actually left out some steps: answering questions in debconf for > example, running update-exim.conf, building /etc/aliases. These things > are hard to do when you use the debian package beacause the debian > package does not compare in quality or clarity to the exim package.To the Philip Hazel packaged Source Tarball? Yeah, that is easy. Sure thing. In fact, Why even use Debian at all, go with FreeBSD Ports, or Emerge it on Gentoo. Even better, why not go with LFS. If you don''t have the clue absorbtion rate to understand the Debian Way, and understand that there is more than one way to skin a cat, then stop trolling here.> > with > > > > download tarball > > setup EDITME, selecting the wanted features > > install build-dependcies > > compile > > install > > $EDITOR /etc/exim4/exim4.conf > > > > cu and- am I feeding a troll? -reas > > When building from the upstream source one is forced to read the exim > docs and therefor one learns much more about exim and how it works. The > debian "magic" obscures important information.Sure, one must read the spec.txt when compiling from source using PH''s package. And the Debian Magic as you have it being called is nothing more than a good shell script written in a very well defined environment, that condones the re-use of ideas that the environment was designed for and built upon itself Same could be said about using the Debian methods. They are Documented as well as or even better than spec.txt. And the docs install right along with the packages. And for that matter spec.txt is there as a part of it. -- greg, greg@gregfolkert.net The technology that is Stronger, better, faster: Linux -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-exim4-users/attachments/20060405/6e0e87b7/attachment.pgp
On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 02:28:26PM -0400, Greg Folkert wrote:> I can manage 500 small, for each router that each use the same > transport. Imagine changing the ordering of the routers in a single file > configuration. Nightmare to do with scripting tools. But, I can renmae > the file from (say) 350gregfolkert.net to 200gregfolkert.net and change > the ordering in the config file. Vhosting using Exim is so much easier > using the Debian small config files, it isn''t even funny.Actually, the way to go here would be one router with lookup techniques which reads from its own config files or even a config database instead of having one hard-coded router per domain. That''s going to be a performance nightmare. Remember, exim forks a lot, and each newly forked process has to read the configuration anew.> If you don''t have the clue absorbtion rate to understand the Debian Way, > and understand that there is more than one way to skin a cat, then stop > trolling here.Cat skinning is absolutely forbidden here. Kira and Murphy won''t appreciate being skinned. Greetings Marc -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don''t trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Mannheim, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 621 72739834 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 621 72739835
On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 09:30:23AM +0200, Jeremiah Foster wrote:> Andreas, > > Just because someone disagrees with you or the debian maintainer does > not mean they are a troll. I have discussed the debian exim package with > a number of experienced UNIX admins and many agree that they debian exim > package is broken. Yours is a typical debian user''s attitude though; useThe debian configuration is not broken. The debian configuration is a great way to use exim for the needs of debian. As has already been pointed out, if you wish to use a hand-crafted configuration file, you can. I first used exim when it came as the packaged default in debian sytems (exim3). Because I needed to use it in some moderately complex setups and it came with a simple flat-file configuration in those days, I got to know the exim spec (upstream docs) throughly and got very adept at writing new routers/directors etc. to suit my needs. When first installing debian exim4 packages I was confused with the complexity of the new debian configuration system. I guess that is where your "experienced UNIX admins" are at. However, I read the debian docs and discovered that I could bypass all that apparant complexity by simply installing an /etc/exim4/exim4.conf file. I used the upstream script to convert my exim3 configs to exim4 configs, which is inexact and needs to be checked carefully. (Having said that, it worked well for me.) Subsequently, I''ve re-investigated the "complex" debian setup, and I am using the debian split config system on new systems I install. After a little time spent learning about it, I find it is actually an excellent system to work with. I am in the process of converting my manual exim4.conf files on the different servers I administer to the debian split configuration. The main advantage I see is that I limit my input into the configuration to only those specific snipets of the config file that are specific to my site(s). For the majority of the configuration file, I use the package default configuration which gives me the combined effort of the debian exim4 package maintainers, and review by everyone who reviews the debian packages. The quality of this part of the configuration is undoubtedly higher that what I would typically produce myself. I also get the advantage that I can benefit from improvements to the configuration (security upgrades or potentially enhanced functionality) on upgrade without having to write those into the exim4.conf myself.> pejorative expletives and name-calling rather than referring to the > facts. A quick look at the volume of traffic on the exim mailing list > versus this list will show any impartial observer that the vast majority > of exim users do not use debian. >I suspect the majority of exim users are in fact debian users. However, there is little point in trying to debate this point unless you have some data to back up your assertion. Comments like this make me assume you are trolling, contrary to your assertion above. I certainly post more to the exim list than here, because I more often have a question that is not debian specific, but is simply a query about how a paticular router works, or some other configuration detail. Just because I post to the exim list doesn''t mean I compiled from a tarball. On the contrary, I''ve always used packaged software whenever possible. I find that in administering a number of servers, it is far less work in the long run to run the pre-packaged software than custom installs. When a security problem needs to be addressed or an upgrade done on many machines, a few apt-get runs beats many hours of work required to download, compile, test and update configuration on multiple machines, or alternatively create and maintain a parallel system to handle co-ordinated updates on multiple machines.> On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 19:33 +0200, Andreas Metzler wrote: > > On 2006-04-03 Jeremiah Foster <jeremiah.foster@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Personally I think this is a good idea for two reasons: > > > > > 1. It is easier to install the exim package from exim directly > > > and not have to mess with the debian set up. > > > > BS. Compare: > > > > apt-get install exim4-daemon-heavy > > $EDITOR /etc/exim4/exim4.conf > > > > You actually left out some steps: answering questions in debconf for > example, running update-exim.conf, building /etc/aliases. These things > are hard to do when you use the debian package beacause the debian > package does not compare in quality or clarity to the exim package. >I think you simply need to acknowledge when you make a mistake. I believe it is unquestionally easier to install the exim4 packages on a debian system than to go through the download tarball/compile/install routine, and you can use a hand crafted /etc/exim4/exim4.conf just as you would with the install from the tarball. A few debconf questions shouldn''t be intimidating to a debian user. I think the real issue is that you don''t understand the debian configuration system and now easy it is to work around it if you wish. I think there is also an issue here that the documentation (/usr/share/doc/exim4-base/README.Debian.gz) is not that well organised, and it could be clearer. Most of the information that people need is there, if they take the time to read and understand it. However, more could be done to help convey this information more clearly and completely. I think that the upstream exim documentation is excellent and is probably of a higher standard than the debian specific documentation. Patches are welcome I assume. However, the quality of the debian packaging and configuration system itself is excellent. I would be interested to know exactly what you have against the debian packages.> > with > > > > download tarball > > setup EDITME, selecting the wanted features > > install build-dependcies > > compile > > install > > $EDITOR /etc/exim4/exim4.conf > > > > cu and- am I feeding a troll? -reas > > When building from the upstream source one is forced to read the exim > docs and therefor one learns much more about exim and how it works. The > debian "magic" obscures important information. >This is by design. When installing the debian package, a user can set the system up to provide an MTA service for a local workstation, or even as a "workgroup" SMTP server, by only answering a few simple debconf questions. The resulting install/configuration is secure and robust. They do not need to be concerned with the complexity of exim configuration. Of course if they need a more complex MTA setup, they need to learn about exim configuration from the exim spec. They will then find they can take control of the exim4.conf file manually, or they can augment the installed debian configuration. They can choose to have the best of both worlds - the convinience of the debian packages and the full control of the system through a through understanding of exim. I think overall the debian packages have done an excellent job, producing excelent quality packages that in general sould be the first choice for debian systems unless there are some really unusual requriements. As I tend to find with debian packages, you may have to dig into the documentation a little to unserstand it properly. But overall, the packagers should be praised for their great work. It''s certainly been really useful to me. Cheers, Alex
On Wed, 2006-04-05 at 20:42 +0200, Marc Haber wrote:> On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 02:28:26PM -0400, Greg Folkert wrote: > > I can manage 500 small, for each router that each use the same > > transport. Imagine changing the ordering of the routers in a single file > > configuration. Nightmare to do with scripting tools. But, I can renmae > > the file from (say) 350gregfolkert.net to 200gregfolkert.net and change > > the ordering in the config file. Vhosting using Exim is so much easier > > using the Debian small config files, it isn''t even funny. > > Actually, the way to go here would be one router with lookup > techniques which reads from its own config files or even a config > database instead of having one hard-coded router per domain. That''s > going to be a performance nightmare.I''ll agree with that, but to be honest cPanel doesn''t like that kind of setup. I use cPanel mainly for the resellers on my machines. Once they get to a certain size, they are migrated to a machine fitted for them, and usually they like to split mail and other services. Exim4 doesn''t really have a big problem with the forking. I a fiar number of dedicate runners to deal with things. So yes, I have done some stupid things, but all in the way to make cPanel deal more "less dumb" than with other methods. Lesser of evils kind of thing.> Remember, exim forks a lot, and each newly forked process has to read > the configuration anew.it is why I use exim4 in a different way than most Debianistas> > If you don''t have the clue absorbtion rate to understand the Debian Way, > > and understand that there is more than one way to skin a cat, then stop > > trolling here. > > Cat skinning is absolutely forbidden here. Kira and Murphy won''t > appreciate being skinned.Remember, some people think: Cat, the other, other white meat. Me personally, I like cats, especially rambunctious ones that chase your fingers while typing. Or sometimes roll on the keyboard at the worst times. I have a dog that does the finger chasing, but her being a ~67LB (~30K) Weimaraner lapdog and (s)mother, doesn''t help much and typically cannot be ignored while chasing my fingers while I type. -- greg, greg@gregfolkert.net The technology that is Stronger, better, faster: Linux -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-exim4-users/attachments/20060405/7f87a153/attachment-0001.pgp
On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 10:20:37AM +1200, Alex King wrote:> I think there is also an issue here that the documentation > (/usr/share/doc/exim4-base/README.Debian.gz) is not that well organised, > and it could be clearer.I am open to suggestions. The README.Debian has recently been Docbookized, and I''ll happily discuss how do improve it. Greetings Marc -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don''t trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Mannheim, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 621 72739834 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 621 72739835
I think it would benefit from explaining the /etc/exim4/exim4.conf option near the top of the file, and noting it as suitable for people experienced with writing exim configurations. Also, rather than just explaining how the different configuration schemes work, also give some examples of different macros that can be used with the standard configuration. That is, show some examples of how a 000_localmacros file can be used, and how setting some specific macros there will affect operation of the exim installation. A comprehensive list of macros defined in the standard configuration, or at least a list of the most likely useful ones, would be nice too. Note these are based on the sarge situation, I haven''t looked what changes are currently in etch. HTH, Alex On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 06:20:10AM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:> On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 10:20:37AM +1200, Alex King wrote: > > I think there is also an issue here that the documentation > > (/usr/share/doc/exim4-base/README.Debian.gz) is not that well organised, > > and it could be clearer. > > I am open to suggestions. The README.Debian has recently been > Docbookized, and I''ll happily discuss how do improve it. > > Greetings > Marc > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Marc Haber | "I don''t trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header > Mannheim, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 621 72739834 > Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 621 72739835 > > _______________________________________________ > Pkg-exim4-users mailing list > Pkg-exim4-users@lists.alioth.debian.org > http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/pkg-exim4-users
On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 04:53:02PM +1200, Alex King wrote:> I think it would benefit from explaining the /etc/exim4/exim4.conf > option near the top of the file, and noting it as suitable for people > experienced with writing exim configurations.I have done so in current svn.> Also, rather than just explaining how the different configuration > schemes work, also give some examples of different macros that can be > used with the standard configuration. That is, show some examples of > how a 000_localmacros file can be used, and how setting some specific > macros there will affect operation of the exim installation.Can you give a patch to the README.Debian.xml file in current unstable?> A > comprehensive list of macros defined in the standard configuration, or > at least a list of the most likely useful ones, would be nice too.No way, people who need to set macros need to understand the configuration anyway, and the list of macros is already there.> Note these are based on the sarge situation, I haven''t looked what > changes are currently in etch.As there won''t be any changes to sarge, we can only work on sid packages which will eventually migrate to etch. Discussing sarge docs is wasted time. Greetings Marc -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don''t trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Mannheim, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 621 72739834 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 621 72739835