Pkg exim4 users - Nov 2005 - Dropping support for users of Debianhowto-vexim

On Tue, Nov 29, 2005 at 02:47:07PM -0000, Phillip Baker
wrote:
> > In most cases, I found out that the people asking these questions have
> > used the directions listed in 
> > http://www.debianhowto.de/de:howtos:sarge:exim4_vexim2_courier_mailman
> > which basically say "disable the Debian magic and use our
exim4.conf".
> 
> This is, to some extents, understandable. Vexim''s example config
changes a
> lot of parts of the bog standard exim configuration. There is no reason
> however that the split config file system could not be supported, but noone
> has taken the time to split the monolithic example file down into
"Debian
> magic" friendly files. (I''m assuming by debian magic
you''re including the
> split config schema that is default, as well as the debconf stuff).
Actually, the clean way to do it would be to have their own package,
exim4-config-debianhowto-vexim, which plugs into our packages and
replaces our exim4-config in its entirety. In that case, people are
free to do what they want, and to provide their own support.
> Personally, I always use the monolithic config file because it''s
easier to
> find things! As a long standing Debian and historically, "exim"
package
> user, I find the split configs and the debconf stuff counterintuitive - _to
> what I want to do_. We use vexim very successfully across a number of
> servers and have no problems whatsoever with operating without the
''magic''.
Of course. You have some clue. Which is the target audience of our
flexibility.
> Are the problems people experiencing actually solvable using the debian
> magic or is the problem just that their setup is different to what you
would
> expect?
The problem is that these people don''t know zilch about how to run a
mail server and expect everything to work fine. If one actually reads
the Debianhowto HOWTO, it will probably lead to a useable server, but
it will definetely not smoothly upgrade. And of course, there is no
mechanism to push configuration changes to the users'' systems which
might be a big issue if a security advisory comes up.

I do not object to the HOWTO, I do not object to the way it switches
our magic off, but I do object to offloading their support burden to
us, and to the fact that they seem to attract a BIG bunch of
completely clueless newbies who do not even spare the time to read the
HOWTO and don''t have the necessary background.
> > I am therefore tempted to drop any support for vexim-based 
> > configurations and to send all people asking for support towards the 
> > debianhowto.de people who have quite clearly demonstrated that they do
> > not care about the work load of the people providing Debian''s
exim.
> 
> This would be an overreaction. Vexim isn''t your problem. The
standard vexim
> documentation is adequate for those with any familiarity with
> linux/mail/exim to install vexim successfully without having any
significant
> problems.
But it quickly becomes my problem when 50 % of incoming newbie
requests come from vexim users who think that the nifty web interface
saves them from accumulating and knowledge about e-mail and exim basics.
> If we are seeing a large volume of users who are having problems
> as a result of following debianhowto.de''s walkthrough, then the
problem
> could well be there. Or, because it''s the only (at last check)
howto
> available on putting vexim onto sarge (with all the toys) that non-german
> speaking users are attempting to follow it (and promptly getting lost).
The issue is that HOWTOs are prone to make people do things they are
not qualified to do.
> I''m happy to play host to a proper debian/vexim howto/wiki and can
offer
> suggestions but don''t have time to do much documentation myself
due to the
> amount of work I have on at the moment - any other successfull debian &
> vexim users lurking who could help out?
Hosting surely is not a problem, but dedicating time might. I surely
don''t have any available to provide newbie-level documentation for a
software package I don''t use myself, and having to do this in two
languages (otherwise, German-language people would continue using the
debianhowto.de HOWTO because they''re too lazy to read english text).

Greetings
Marc

-- 
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im Header
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> Actually, the clean way to do it would be to have their own 
> package, exim4-config-debianhowto-vexim, which plugs into our 
> packages and replaces our exim4-config in its entirety. In 
> that case, people are free to do what they want, and to 
> provide their own support.
About four seconds after I pressed send I thought about just having a
package with vexim in. :P
> I do not object to the HOWTO, I do not object to the way it 
> switches our magic off, but I do object to offloading their 
> support burden to us, and to the fact that they seem to 
> attract a BIG bunch of completely clueless newbies who do not 
> even spare the time to read the HOWTO and don''t have the 
> necessary background.
Is debianhowto.de actually sending them to us purposefully or are they just
making their own way here? I think it''s fair to put a warning that we
are
not a vexim support group and that if they are having problems with making
exim interact with vexim (on debian or not) that they should look at the
vexim mailing list at silverwraith.com

> > This would be an overreaction. Vexim isn''t your problem. 
>
> But it quickly becomes my problem when 50 % of incoming 
> newbie requests come from vexim users who think that the 
> nifty web interface saves them from accumulating and 
> knowledge about e-mail and exim basics.
Sorry - that''s not what I meant - what I meant was that vexim itself
wasn''t
the source of the problem, mostly the howto.
 
> The issue is that HOWTOs are prone to make people do things 
> they are not qualified to do.
Well, that... but there are plenty of qualified lazy people who like the
handy nature of howtos in that they just list the barebones required to get
going. But they won''t be the ones sending you silly questions ;)
 
> Hosting surely is not a problem, but dedicating time might. I 
> surely don''t have any available to provide newbie-level 
> documentation for a software package I don''t use myself, and 
> having to do this in two languages (otherwise, 
> German-language people would continue using the 
> debianhowto.de HOWTO because they''re too lazy to read english
text).
Well, I invite anyone who does use vexim successfully who would have time to
do so to perhaps look at contributing debian specific notes to the vexim
wiki on silverwraith.com, perhaps.

Regards,
Phillip Baker
LCHost Chief Technical Officer
phil@lchost.co.uk
0870 068 HOST ext 50