I''m trying to access a Wiki page which was available last week but which doesn''t appear to be available today. The URI for the page is (was) http://opensolaris.org/os/community/xen/docs/setupsoldom0/ Can anyone advise me as to how I can find this page again? Thanks in advance for your help. --James
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 06:31:06PM -0700, James Adams wrote:> I''m trying to access a Wiki page which was available last week but > which doesn''t appear to be available today. The URI for the page is > (was) http://opensolaris.org/os/community/xen/docs/setupsoldom0/ > > Can anyone advise me as to how I can find this page again?We''re trying to tidy up the Wiki somewhat. What were you using this page for? It shouldn''t be necessary on Nevada, and the OpenSolaris method is described here: http://opensolaris.org/os/community/xen/docs/2008_11_dom0/ regards john
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 06:31:06PM -0700, James Adams wrote:> > > I''m trying to access a Wiki page which was available last week but > > which doesn''t appear to be available today. The URI for the page is > > (was) http://opensolaris.org/os/community/xen/docs/setupsoldom0/ > > > > Can anyone advise me as to how I can find this page again? > > We''re trying to tidy up the Wiki somewhat. What were you using this page > for? It shouldn''t be necessary on Nevada, and the OpenSolaris method is > described here: > > http://opensolaris.org/os/community/xen/docs/2008_11_dom0/ Thanks for the info, John. It turns out that you do however need the info contained on that old page for booting into an xVM-enabled state on Nevada. I''m pretty sure it boils down to this: Get the menu entries to determine the entry number for Solaris xVM: $ bootadm list-menu Set the default menu entry to Solaris xVM: $ bootadm set-menu default=1 Reboot into xVM-enabled mode: $ reboot I''m not entirely sure if the above is complete since when I tried this on a machine running Solaris Nevada build 108 it dumped core and now I can''t reach the machine again, and I didn''t have that old wiki page to go by so maybe I''ve missed something crucial. The last time I tried following the instructions on that old wiki page I did have success, but it was on another machine using a different Nevada build, I think it was 103. --James
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 05:05:02PM -0700, James Adams wrote:> Thanks for the info, John. It turns out that you do however need the info > contained on that old page for booting into an xVM-enabled state on Nevada. > I''m pretty sure it boils down to this: > > Get the menu entries to determine the entry number for Solaris xVM: > $ bootadm list-menu > > Set the default menu entry to Solaris xVM: > $ bootadm set-menu default=1 > > Reboot into xVM-enabled mode: > $ rebootThis part is basic admin though (choosing a different grub entry). I''m not sure there''s anything work documenting here. It used to be harder since you didn''t get the grub entries and had to add them by hand. regards john
John Levon wrote:> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 05:05:02PM -0700, James Adams wrote: > >> Thanks for the info, John. It turns out that you do however need the info >> contained on that old page for booting into an xVM-enabled state on Nevada. >> I''m pretty sure it boils down to this: >> >> Get the menu entries to determine the entry number for Solaris xVM: >> $ bootadm list-menu >> >> Set the default menu entry to Solaris xVM: >> $ bootadm set-menu default=1 >> >> Reboot into xVM-enabled mode: >> $ reboot > > This part is basic admin though (choosing a different grub entry). I''m > not sure there''s anything work documenting here. It used to be harder > since you didn''t get the grub entries and had to add them by hand. >It used to be harder to program using punch cards too, but that''s no reason to not produce programming books. The above may be basic administration but if you''re not a sysadmin then it''s nice to find a wiki page which explains these simple steps. Apparently someone found it worth documenting before, and I certainly found it useful when I ran across it the first time. Try to remember that not everyone has the same level of Solaris knowledge (some of us are downright thick when it comes to system administration) and what may seem trivial or obvious to you isn''t always so for everyone else. --James
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 06:44:30PM -0700, James Adams wrote:> explains these simple steps. Apparently someone found it worth documenting > beforeNope, this was when you had to write the menu entries yourself as I mentioned.> knowledge (some of us are downright thick when it comes to system > administration) and what may seem trivial or obvious to you isn''t always so > for everyone else.And this is what the official documentation is for (the admin guide, xVM(5), etc.). The wiki is for non-official hacks, quick tips and the like. regards john
John Levon wrote:> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 06:44:30PM -0700, James Adams wrote: > >> explains these simple steps. Apparently someone found it worth documenting >> before > > Nope, this was when you had to write the menu entries yourself as I > mentioned. >John are saying that I''m deluded in thinking that I followed the same steps I outlined above when I first followed the steps explained on that wiki page, and instead the wiki page I referenced only explains how to write GRUB menu list entries? If so then I challenge you to put it back just like it was before you guys removed it and I''ll show you -- it listed the same steps, plus several others in the mix to sufficiently obfuscate what''s actually required to get it done. I didn''t have to write GRUB menu entries, all I had to do was to follow the steps listed above which were also spelled out in that wiki page. And yes, someone did find it worth documenting, otherwise why was it there in the first place?>> knowledge (some of us are downright thick when it comes to system >> administration) and what may seem trivial or obvious to you isn''t always so >> for everyone else. > > And this is what the official documentation is for (the admin guide, > xVM(5), etc.). The wiki is for non-official hacks, quick tips and the > like. >Exactly, I bookmarked that wiki page because it gave a quick tip on how to reboot a Solaris box in xVM-enabled mode. If the xVM documentation I''ve been able to find wasn''t so poor it might not be necessary to bookmark every single wiki page or mailing list message which mentions the basics of how to use xVM on Solaris, but as it stands now it''s imperative to cobble together your own guide from many disparate sources. For example: 1. Go to Google and type in "solaris xvm documentation", and the first page it lists is this one: http://opensolaris.org/os/community/xen/docs/developers/. That''s an impressive looking front page, so you might think that there''ll be some useful documentation contained therein. 2. On that page click on bullet #5, "Booting". This should be the place to find out how to boot Solaris into xVM mode. 3. When you get to that section it tells you that you need an entry in the menu.lst file which specifies the hypervisor. It then provides you with a link where that''s supposedly described. OK, I''ll follow that link: http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/xen/docs/setupsoldom0/ 4. Resource Not Found We''re sorry. The resource "/os/community/xen/docs/setupsoldom0/" could not be found. Please check the URL for proper spelling and capitalization. If you''re having trouble locating a page on this site, try visiting the OpenSolaris home page. Is there better xVM documentation available other than what I found above and the virsh/xvm man pages? I find it almost impossible to believe that there isn''t, probably I''ve just not found it. If so then someone please clue me in so I can stop bothering this list with my newbie questions. Thanks in advance for your help. --James
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 09:38:33PM -0700, James Adams wrote:> John are saying that I''m deluded in thinking that I followed the same stepsNo, I''m not.> like it was before you guys removed it and I''ll show you -- it listed the > same steps, plus several others in the mix to sufficiently obfuscate what''s > actually required to get it done. I didn''t have to write GRUB menuExactly. Writing the menu entries was the hard bit, and that''s why the document existed.> If the xVM documentation I''ve been able to find wasn''t so poor it might notThe correct response to this (since you work for Sun) is to file bugs or find the right people to fix the problems you see. But you''re looking at the Wiki on opensolaris.org. Sadly this is not a good place to be looking. At this point, the best solution is to remove old docs from the Wiki, not keep them around like a bad smell. (I''d actually prefer to disable everything that''s not known to be current, but this has obvious problems.)> 1. Go to Google and type in "solaris xvm documentation", and the first page > it lists is this one: > http://opensolaris.org/os/community/xen/docs/developers/. That''s anYou want us to fix Google? Come on.> 2. On that page click on bullet #5, "Booting". This should be the place to > find out how to boot Solaris into xVM mode.That''s a dangling reference that we need to fix. The whole doc is kind of pointless though - it should probably refer to the docs mentioned below.> Is there better xVM documentation available other than what I found above > and the virsh/xvm man pages? I find it almost impossible to believe that > there isn''t, probably I''ve just not found it. If so then someone please > clue me in so I can stop bothering this list with my newbie questions.Go to docs.sun.com and type xvm in the search box. The first two links are what you want. If those don''t answer your questions well enough, please file bugs. regards john
John Levon wrote:> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 09:38:33PM -0700, James Adams wrote: > > The correct response to this (since you work for Sun) is to file bugs or > find the right people to fix the problems you see.There is no bug, just a missing document which I previously found useful. Can you provide or point me to a list of the right people who''d be willing to field xVM questions from a beginner (other than this mailing list)? I imagine that such people could have saved me many frustrating hours, if not days, over the past couple of months, especially considering that my difficulties were probably child''s play for anyone who knows xVM reasonably well. > But you''re looking at> the Wiki on opensolaris.org. Sadly this is not a good place to be > looking.The good documentation for xVM is difficult to find using Google, and the document I found worked for me the first time. Thanks to you I now have a better idea of where to look for more complete documentation.> At this point, the best solution is to remove old docs from the > Wiki, not keep them around like a bad smell. >Or replace them with up-to-date information if the topics are still of interest to the community. Instead of vanishing the document in question it would be better to simply replace the out-of-date information with something like a pointer to http://dlc.sun.com/osol/docs/content/SYSADRM/gfwrk.html#ggdmn> (I''d actually prefer to disable everything that''s not known to be > current, but this has obvious problems.) > >> 1. Go to Google and type in "solaris xvm documentation", and the first page >> it lists is this one: >> http://opensolaris.org/os/community/xen/docs/developers/. That''s an > > You want us to fix Google? Come on. >My point was that most folks use Google to find what they''re looking for, and Google is usually smart enough to show the most relevant pages at the top of it''s search results. You might consider making it so that Google has an easier time finding and indexing the most appropriate documentation for Solaris xVM. Perhaps I''m spoiled by not having to deal with this issue with most of the other open source software I use, their documentation shows up right at the top of a Google search. For example try "spring framework documentation" and look at how easy it is to find the most authoritative reference material for Spring. It''s up to you guys to decide if you want your documentation to continue to be difficult for new users to locate, and hopefully I''m doing you a favor by pointing out that it is.>> 2. On that page click on bullet #5, "Booting". This should be the place to >> find out how to boot Solaris into xVM mode. > > That''s a dangling reference that we need to fix. The whole doc is kind > of pointless though - it should probably refer to the docs mentioned > below. >Agreed.>> Is there better xVM documentation available other than what I found above >> and the virsh/xvm man pages? I find it almost impossible to believe that >> there isn''t, probably I''ve just not found it. If so then someone please >> clue me in so I can stop bothering this list with my newbie questions. > > Go to docs.sun.com and type xvm in the search box. The first two links > are what you want. If those don''t answer your questions well enough, > please file bugs. >Thanks. Is "hard-to-find or insufficient documentation" really considered to be a bug? --James
James Adams writes:> Thanks. Is "hard-to-find or insufficient documentation" really considered > to be a bug?Absolutely! Traditionally, good docs was one of the things that made Sun stand out. Please don''t lose that edge. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Volker A. Brandt Consulting and Support for Sun Solaris Brandt & Brandt Computer GmbH WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/ Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim Email: vab@bb-c.de Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513 Schuhgröße: 45 Geschäftsführer: Rainer J. H. Brandt und Volker A. Brandt
Hi James, James Adams wrote:> John Levon wrote: >> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 09:38:33PM -0700, James Adams wrote: >> >> The correct response to this (since you work for Sun) is to file bugs or >> find the right people to fix the problems you see. > > There is no bug, just a missing document which I previously found > useful. Can you provide or point me to a list of the right people who''d > be willing to field xVM questions from a beginner (other than this > mailing list)? I imagine that such people could have saved me many > frustrating hours, if not days, over the past couple of months,We have always been here to help answer questions :-)> especially considering that my difficulties were probably child''s play > for anyone who knows xVM reasonably well.This is a good alias to start. If you search the alias you can usually find answers to the "easy" questions.. We also have internal aliases if you want to don''t want to ask on the public alias if your interested in that. You will usually get a response back to a question, especially if you have shown a little effort in trying to track down the answer first. i.e. instead of asking what happened to the link http://opensolaris.org/os/community/xen/docs/setupsoldom0/ It would have been more productive to ask that you are trying to setup a grub menu.lst entry and was looking for http://opensolaris.org/os/community/xen/docs/setupsoldom0/ which no longer seems to be there. What should it look like? That''s a question that we can easily answer vs what happened on some wiki page that was 3 years old. :-) We will probably be interested in why you don''t have a entry already there.. i.e. is there a bug somewhere which we should fix? Thanks, MRJ
Thanks for your helpful response, Mark. My comments below inline. Mark Johnson wrote:> > Hi James, > > > James Adams wrote: >> John Levon wrote: >>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 09:38:33PM -0700, James Adams wrote: >>> >>> The correct response to this (since you work for Sun) is to file bugs or >>> find the right people to fix the problems you see. >> >> There is no bug, just a missing document which I previously found >> useful. Can you provide or point me to a list of the right people >> who''d be willing to field xVM questions from a beginner (other than >> this mailing list)? I imagine that such people could have saved me >> many frustrating hours, if not days, over the past couple of months, > > We have always been here to help answer questions :-) >Are you saying that there''s a group within Sun who will be willing to field questions from beginners like me (if so please email me the contact information), or that I should continue to utilize this mailing list as the sole avenue of access to xVM expertise within Sun? One of my frustrations with using xVM is that it''s been difficult to find anyone who understands how to use it, and those who do tell me it''s cryptic to understand and poorly documented, sentiments I''ve found to be true based on my limited experiences with it. It''s easy to do the simple things I''ve had to do with xVM so far, but figuring out how to do them has taken an inordinate amount of time. I expect that this would have not been the case if 1) I had found out about this mailing list sooner, and 2) I had had access to resources within Sun who could have answered my newbie questions.> > >> especially considering that my difficulties were probably child''s play >> for anyone who knows xVM reasonably well. > > This is a good alias to start. If you search the > alias you can usually find answers to the "easy" > questions.. > > We also have internal aliases if you want to > don''t want to ask on the public alias if your > interested in that. > > You will usually get a response back to a > question, especially if you have shown a little > effort in trying to track down the answer first. > > i.e. instead of asking what happened to the link > http://opensolaris.org/os/community/xen/docs/setupsoldom0/ > > It would have been more productive to ask that > you are trying to setup a grub menu.lst entry > and was looking for > http://opensolaris.org/os/community/xen/docs/setupsoldom0/ > which no longer seems to be there. What should > it look like? > > That''s a question that we can easily answer vs what > happened on some wiki page that was 3 years old. :-) >Agreed, point taken. However let me also point out that a more appropriate response to my initial question would have been something like: "Yes we have moved the wiki documentation you referenced in your message. It was out-of-date and the current documentation which addresses the same issue is found here: http://dlc.sun.com/osol/docs/content/SYSADRM/gfwrk.html#ggdmn" However the terse reply and follow ups I received from John Levon were less than helpful. I responded to his initial response (which sent me to a page that had none of the pertinent info contained within the wiki page I was asking about) with by pointing out to him that his previous response was in error, in that you do in fact need to modify the default order of the grub boot entries for Nevada, and an outline of the required steps I was able to reproduce from memory (maybe I didn''t really need that wiki page after all) for the benefit of anyone who may be searching for the information in the future. He responded by saying that it was basic admin and not worth documenting, I then pointed out that it actually was worth documenting and is in fact contained within the current documentation, and so on and so on. Although it came at the risk of proving this (http://www.retardcentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/arguing_on_internet.jpg) to be spot on I hope it highlighted to the mailing list readers the issues faced by xVM beginners like me and the fact that we often have to cobble together whatever documentation resources we can find. In the end I was able to finally get some pointers to better references than I had been able to find on my own so it was worth it, even if I may be seen henceforth as "that newbie retard who wouldn''t let it drop on the mailing list". :)> We will probably be interested in why you don''t have > a entry already there.. i.e. is there a bug somewhere > which we should fix? > >Again I''m not sure what you''re driving at here -- are you suggesting that I should create an entry of some sort somewhere on your wiki pages? If so please elaborate and I''ll be happy to make a contribution. And I think I made it plain in the previous exchanges with Mr. Levon that I don''t claim that there''s an xVM bug, just poorly accessible documentation. I expect that some search engine optimization of the documentation pages could remedy that, but that''s something else I know almost nothing about so I can''t offer any useful input on how to go about it. --James
On 2/27/09 4:50 AM, Volker A. Brandt wrote:> James Adams writes: > >> Thanks. Is "hard-to-find or insufficient documentation" really considered >> to be a bug? > > Absolutely! Traditionally, good docs was one of the things that made > Sun stand out. Please don''t lose that edge.As a ~bystander looking in; let me add that well-written docs are one way that Open Solaris etc. can outshine Linux and other offerings.