John Hubbard
2025-Oct-22 02:18 UTC
[PATCH 6/7] nova-core: mm: Add support to use PRAMIN windows to write to VRAM
On 10/20/25 11:55 AM, Joel Fernandes wrote:> Required for writing page tables directly to VRAM physical memory, > before page tables and MMU are setup. > > Signed-off-by: Joel Fernandes <joelagnelf at nvidia.com> > --- > drivers/gpu/nova-core/mm/mod.rs | 3 + > drivers/gpu/nova-core/mm/pramin.rs | 241 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > drivers/gpu/nova-core/nova_core.rs | 1 + > drivers/gpu/nova-core/regs.rs | 29 +++- > 4 files changed, 273 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-) > create mode 100644 drivers/gpu/nova-core/mm/mod.rs > create mode 100644 drivers/gpu/nova-core/mm/pramin.rsHi Joel, Lots of feedback here, I'm familiar with this part of the RM and GPU, and have studied your patch here for a while. First of all, I'd like very much for this patch to be at the beginning of a new patchset, that includes calling code that actually uses this pramin functionality. That's a good practice in general, which I want to sort of reestablish here in nova, but also in this particular case it is especially helpful in avoiding a lot of code that we don't need, and won't need. OK here we go.> > diff --git a/drivers/gpu/nova-core/mm/mod.rs b/drivers/gpu/nova-core/mm/mod.rs > new file mode 100644 > index 000000000000..54c7cd9416a9 > --- /dev/null > +++ b/drivers/gpu/nova-core/mm/mod.rs > @@ -0,0 +1,3 @@ > +// SPDX-License-Identifier: GPL-2.0 > + > +pub(crate) mod pramin; > diff --git a/drivers/gpu/nova-core/mm/pramin.rs b/drivers/gpu/nova-core/mm/pramin.rs > new file mode 100644 > index 000000000000..4f4e1b8c0b9b > --- /dev/null > +++ b/drivers/gpu/nova-core/mm/pramin.rs > @@ -0,0 +1,241 @@ > +// SPDX-License-Identifier: GPL-2.0 > + > +//! Direct VRAM access through PRAMIN window before page tables are set up.Let's omit "before page tables are set up", because that's an assumption about the caller. In fact, this can be used at any time. (As an aside, various diag tools use this HW feature to peek/poke at vidmem, as you might expect.)> +//! PRAMIN can also write to system memory, however for simplicty we only > +//! support VRAM access.Actually, I'd like to say something a bit different: For Hopper/Blackwell and later GPUs, PRAMIN can only access VRAM. For earlier GPUs, sysmem was technically supported, but in practice never used in production drivers. This is why Nova only provides VRAM access: Nova supports only a few of those older GPU generations (Turing, Ampere, and Ada), and there is no use case even for those few GPUs, for attempting sysmem access via PRAMIN.> +//! > +//! # Examples > +//! > +//! ## Writing u32 data to VRAM > +//! > +//! ```no_run > +//! use crate::driver::Bar0; > +//! use crate::mm::pramin::PraminVram; > +//! > +//! fn write_data_to_vram(bar: &Bar0) -> Result { > +//! let pramin = PraminVram::new(bar); > +//! // Write 4 32-bit words to VRAM at offset 0x10000 > +//! let data: [u32; 4] = [0xDEADBEEF, 0xCAFEBABE, 0x12345678, 0x87654321]; > +//! pramin.write::<u32>(0x10000, &data)?; > +//! Ok(()) > +//! } > +//! ``` > +//! > +//! ## Reading bytes from VRAM > +//! > +//! ```no_run > +//! use crate::driver::Bar0; > +//! use crate::mm::pramin::PraminVram; > +//! > +//! fn read_data_from_vram(bar: &Bar0, buffer: &mut KVec<u8>) -> Result { > +//! let pramin = PraminVram::new(bar); > +//! // Read a u8 from VRAM starting at offset 0x20000 > +//! pramin.read::<u8>(0x20000, buffer)?; > +//! Ok(()) > +//! } > +//! ``` > + > +#![expect(dead_code)] > + > +use crate::driver::Bar0; > +use crate::regs; > +use core::mem; > +use kernel::prelude::*; > + > +/// PRAMIN is a window into the VRAM (not a hardware block) that is used to access > +/// the VRAM directly. These addresses are consistent across all GPUs. > +const PRAMIN_BASE: usize = 0x700000; // PRAMIN is always at BAR0 + 0x700000 > +const PRAMIN_SIZE: usize = 0x100000; // 1MB aperture - max access per window position > + > +/// Trait for types that can be read/written through PRAMIN. > +pub(crate) trait PraminNum: Copy + Default + Sized { > + fn read_from_bar(bar: &Bar0, offset: usize) -> Result<Self>; > + > + fn write_to_bar(self, bar: &Bar0, offset: usize) -> Result; > + > + fn size_bytes() -> usize { > + mem::size_of::<Self>() > + } > + > + fn alignment() -> usize { > + Self::size_bytes() > + } > +} > + > +/// Macro to implement PraminNum trait for unsigned integer types. > +macro_rules! impl_pramin_unsigned_num { > + ($bits:literal) => { > + ::kernel::macros::paste! { > + impl PraminNum for [<u $bits>] { > + fn read_from_bar(bar: &Bar0, offset: usize) -> Result<Self> { > + bar.[<try_read $bits>](offset) > + } > + > + fn write_to_bar(self, bar: &Bar0, offset: usize) -> Result { > + bar.[<try_write $bits>](self, offset) > + } > + } > + } > + }; > +} > + > +impl_pramin_unsigned_num!(8); > +impl_pramin_unsigned_num!(16); > +impl_pramin_unsigned_num!(32); > +impl_pramin_unsigned_num!(64); > + > +/// Direct VRAM access through PRAMIN window before page tables are set up. > +pub(crate) struct PraminVram<'a> { > + bar: &'a Bar0, > + saved_window_addr: usize, > +} > + > +impl<'a> PraminVram<'a> { > + /// Create a new PRAMIN VRAM accessor, saving current window state, > + /// the state is restored when the accessor is dropped. > + /// > + /// The BAR0 window base must be 64KB aligned but provides 1MB of VRAM access. > + /// Window is repositioned automatically when accessing data beyond 1MB boundaries. > + pub(crate) fn new(bar: &'a Bar0) -> Self { > + let saved_window_addr = Self::get_window_addr(bar); > + Self { > + bar, > + saved_window_addr, > + } > + } > + > + /// Set BAR0 window to point to specific FB region. > + /// > + /// # Arguments > + /// > + /// * `fb_offset` - VRAM byte offset where the window should be positioned. > + /// Must be 64KB aligned (lower 16 bits zero). > + fn set_window_addr(&self, fb_offset: usize) -> Result { > + // FB offset must be 64KB aligned (hardware requirement for window_base field) > + // Once positioned, the window provides access to 1MB of VRAM through PRAMIN aperture > + if fb_offset & 0xFFFF != 0 { > + return Err(EINVAL); > + } > + > + let window_reg = regs::NV_PBUS_BAR0_WINDOW::default().set_window_addr(fb_offset); > + window_reg.write(self.bar); > + > + // Read back to ensure it took effect > + let readback = regs::NV_PBUS_BAR0_WINDOW::read(self.bar); > + if readback.window_base() != window_reg.window_base() { > + return Err(EIO); > + }Let's not "read it back to ensure it took effect". This is not required by the hardware.> + > + Ok(()) > + } > + > + /// Get current BAR0 window offset. > + /// > + /// # Returns > + /// > + /// The byte offset in VRAM where the PRAMIN window is currently positioned. > + /// This offset is always 64KB aligned. > + fn get_window_addr(bar: &Bar0) -> usize { > + let window_reg = regs::NV_PBUS_BAR0_WINDOW::read(bar); > + window_reg.get_window_addr() > + } > + > + /// Common logic for accessing VRAM data through PRAMIN with windowing. > + /// > + /// # Arguments > + /// > + /// * `fb_offset` - Starting byte offset in VRAM (framebuffer) where access begins. > + /// Must be aligned to `T::alignment()`. > + /// * `num_items` - Number of items of type `T` to process. > + /// * `operation` - Closure called for each item to perform the actual read/write. > + /// Takes two parameters: > + /// - `data_idx`: Index of the item in the data array (0..num_items) > + /// - `pramin_offset`: BAR0 offset in the PRAMIN aperture to access > + /// > + /// The function automatically handles PRAMIN window repositioning when accessing > + /// data that spans multiple 1MB windows. > + fn access_vram<T: PraminNum, F>( > + &self, > + fb_offset: usize, > + num_items: usize, > + mut operation: F, > + ) -> ResultThis is far too much functionality, and the code can be made much smaller and simpler, and still get what we need. Open RM only supplies small accessors (8 thru 64 bits wide), and no "bulk access". The calling code can loop if necessary. We should do likewise, and avoid this. Then we can just create things such as write_u32() or write<u32>(), etc. And do we even *need* read?? I'm not sure we do. This is hopefully showing the value of including the calling code, as a follow-on patch in the series. Hope this helps! thanks, -- John Hubbard> + where > + F: FnMut(usize, usize) -> Result, > + { > + // FB offset must be aligned to the size of T > + if fb_offset & (T::alignment() - 1) != 0 { > + return Err(EINVAL); > + } > + > + let mut offset_bytes = fb_offset; > + let mut remaining_items = num_items; > + let mut data_index = 0; > + > + while remaining_items > 0 { > + // Align the window to 64KB boundary > + let target_window = offset_bytes & !0xFFFF; > + let window_offset = offset_bytes - target_window; > + > + // Set window if needed > + if target_window != Self::get_window_addr(self.bar) { > + self.set_window_addr(target_window)?; > + } > + > + // Calculate how many items we can access from this window position > + // We can access up to 1MB total, minus the offset within the window > + let remaining_in_window = PRAMIN_SIZE - window_offset; > + let max_items_in_window = remaining_in_window / T::size_bytes(); > + let items_to_write = core::cmp::min(remaining_items, max_items_in_window); > + > + // Process data through PRAMIN > + for i in 0..items_to_write { > + // Calculate the byte offset in the PRAMIN window to write to. > + let pramin_offset_bytes = PRAMIN_BASE + window_offset + (i * T::size_bytes()); > + operation(data_index + i, pramin_offset_bytes)?; > + } > + > + // Move to next chunk. > + data_index += items_to_write; > + offset_bytes += items_to_write * T::size_bytes(); > + remaining_items -= items_to_write; > + } > + > + Ok(()) > + } > + > + /// Generic write for data to VRAM through PRAMIN. > + /// > + /// # Arguments > + /// > + /// * `fb_offset` - Starting byte offset in VRAM where data will be written. > + /// Must be aligned to `T::alignment()`. > + /// * `data` - Slice of items to write to VRAM. All items will be written sequentially > + /// starting at `fb_offset`. > + pub(crate) fn write<T: PraminNum>(&self, fb_offset: usize, data: &[T]) -> Result { > + self.access_vram::<T, _>(fb_offset, data.len(), |data_idx, pramin_offset| { > + data[data_idx].write_to_bar(self.bar, pramin_offset) > + }) > + } > + > + /// Generic read data from VRAM through PRAMIN. > + /// > + /// # Arguments > + /// > + /// * `fb_offset` - Starting byte offset in VRAM where data will be read from. > + /// Must be aligned to `T::alignment()`. > + /// * `data` - Mutable slice that will be filled with data read from VRAM. > + /// The number of items read equals `data.len()`. > + pub(crate) fn read<T: PraminNum>(&self, fb_offset: usize, data: &mut [T]) -> Result { > + self.access_vram::<T, _>(fb_offset, data.len(), |data_idx, pramin_offset| { > + data[data_idx] = T::read_from_bar(self.bar, pramin_offset)?; > + Ok(()) > + }) > + } > +} > + > +impl<'a> Drop for PraminVram<'a> { > + fn drop(&mut self) { > + let _ = self.set_window_addr(self.saved_window_addr); // Restore original window. > + } > +} > diff --git a/drivers/gpu/nova-core/nova_core.rs b/drivers/gpu/nova-core/nova_core.rs > index 112277c7921e..6bd9fc3372d6 100644 > --- a/drivers/gpu/nova-core/nova_core.rs > +++ b/drivers/gpu/nova-core/nova_core.rs > @@ -13,6 +13,7 @@ > mod gfw; > mod gpu; > mod gsp; > +mod mm; > mod regs; > mod util; > mod vbios; > diff --git a/drivers/gpu/nova-core/regs.rs b/drivers/gpu/nova-core/regs.rs > index a3836a01996b..ba09da7e1541 100644 > --- a/drivers/gpu/nova-core/regs.rs > +++ b/drivers/gpu/nova-core/regs.rs > @@ -12,6 +12,7 @@ > FalconModSelAlgo, FalconSecurityModel, PFalcon2Base, PFalconBase, PeregrineCoreSelect, > }; > use crate::gpu::{Architecture, Chipset}; > +use kernel::bits::genmask_u32; > use kernel::prelude::*; > > // PMC > @@ -43,7 +44,8 @@ pub(crate) fn chipset(self) -> Result<Chipset> { > } > } > > -// PBUS > +// PBUS - PBUS is a bus control unit, that helps the GPU communicate with the PCI bus. > +// Handles the BAR windows, decoding of MMIO read/writes on the BARs, etc. > > register!(NV_PBUS_SW_SCRATCH @ 0x00001400[64] {}); > > @@ -52,6 +54,31 @@ pub(crate) fn chipset(self) -> Result<Chipset> { > 31:16 frts_err_code as u16; > }); > > +// BAR0 window control register to configure the BAR0 window for PRAMIN access > +// (direct physical VRAM access). > +register!(NV_PBUS_BAR0_WINDOW @ 0x00001700, "BAR0 window control register" { > + 25:24 target as u8, "Target (0=VID_MEM, 1=SYS_MEM_COHERENT, 2=SYS_MEM_NONCOHERENT)"; > + 23:0 window_base as u32, "Window base address (bits 39:16 of FB addr)"; > +}); > + > +impl NV_PBUS_BAR0_WINDOW { > + /// Returns the 64-bit aligned VRAM address of the window. > + pub(crate) fn get_window_addr(self) -> usize { > + (self.window_base() as usize) << 16 > + } > + > + /// Sets the window address from a framebuffer offset. > + /// The fb_offset must be 64KB aligned (lower bits discared). > + pub(crate) fn set_window_addr(self, fb_offset: usize) -> Self { > + // Calculate window base (bits 39:16 of FB address) > + // The total FB address is 40 bits, mask anything above. Since we are > + // right shifting the offset by 16 bits, the mask is only 24 bits. > + let mask = genmask_u32(0..=23) as usize; > + let window_base = ((fb_offset >> 16) & mask) as u32; > + self.set_window_base(window_base) > + } > +} > + > // PFB > > // The following two registers together hold the physical system memory address that is used by the
Joel Fernandes
2025-Oct-22 17:48 UTC
[PATCH 6/7] nova-core: mm: Add support to use PRAMIN windows to write to VRAM
Hi John, On 10/21/2025 10:18 PM, John Hubbard wrote: [...]> First of all, I'd like very much for this patch to be at the beginning > of a new patchset, that includes calling code that actually uses this > pramin functionality.There's no code in this patchset that uses pramin functionality though, so not sure what you mean? This is a prerequisite patch for mm as mentioned in the cover letter.>> diff --git a/drivers/gpu/nova-core/mm/mod.rs b/drivers/gpu/nova-core/mm/mod.rs >> new file mode 100644 >> index 000000000000..54c7cd9416a9 >> --- /dev/null >> +++ b/drivers/gpu/nova-core/mm/mod.rs >> @@ -0,0 +1,3 @@ >> +// SPDX-License-Identifier: GPL-2.0 >> + >> +pub(crate) mod pramin; >> diff --git a/drivers/gpu/nova-core/mm/pramin.rs b/drivers/gpu/nova-core/mm/pramin.rs >> new file mode 100644 >> index 000000000000..4f4e1b8c0b9b >> --- /dev/null >> +++ b/drivers/gpu/nova-core/mm/pramin.rs >> @@ -0,0 +1,241 @@ >> +// SPDX-License-Identifier: GPL-2.0 >> + >> +//! Direct VRAM access through PRAMIN window before page tables are set up. > > Let's omit "before page tables are set up", because that's an assumption > about the caller. In fact, this can be used at any time. (As an aside, > various diag tools use this HW feature to peek/poke at vidmem, as you > might expect.)Ok.> >> +//! PRAMIN can also write to system memory, however for simplicty we only >> +//! support VRAM access. > > Actually, I'd like to say something a bit different: > > For Hopper/Blackwell and later GPUs, PRAMIN can only access VRAM. > For earlier GPUs, sysmem was technically supported, but in practice > never used in production drivers.Ah, will clarify.> > This is why Nova only provides VRAM access: Nova supports only a few > of those older GPU generations (Turing, Ampere, and Ada), and there is > no use case even for those few GPUs, for attempting sysmem access > via PRAMIN.Makes sense. Plus we can also access sysmem from BAR1 if needed.>> +//! >> +//! # Examples >> +//! >> +//! ## Writing u32 data to VRAM >> +//! >> +//! ```no_run >> +//! use crate::driver::Bar0; >> +//! use crate::mm::pramin::PraminVram; >> +//! >> +//! fn write_data_to_vram(bar: &Bar0) -> Result { >> +//! let pramin = PraminVram::new(bar); >> +//! // Write 4 32-bit words to VRAM at offset 0x10000 >> +//! let data: [u32; 4] = [0xDEADBEEF, 0xCAFEBABE, 0x12345678, 0x87654321]; >> +//! pramin.write::<u32>(0x10000, &data)?; >> +//! Ok(()) >> +//! } >> +//! ``` >> +//! >> +//! ## Reading bytes from VRAM >> +//! >> +//! ```no_run >> +//! use crate::driver::Bar0; >> +//! use crate::mm::pramin::PraminVram; >> +//! >> +//! fn read_data_from_vram(bar: &Bar0, buffer: &mut KVec<u8>) -> Result { >> +//! let pramin = PraminVram::new(bar); >> +//! // Read a u8 from VRAM starting at offset 0x20000 >> +//! pramin.read::<u8>(0x20000, buffer)?; >> +//! Ok(()) >> +//! } >> +//! ``` >> + >> +#![expect(dead_code)] >> + >> +use crate::driver::Bar0; >> +use crate::regs; >> +use core::mem; >> +use kernel::prelude::*; >> + >> +/// PRAMIN is a window into the VRAM (not a hardware block) that is used to access >> +/// the VRAM directly. These addresses are consistent across all GPUs. >> +const PRAMIN_BASE: usize = 0x700000; // PRAMIN is always at BAR0 + 0x700000 >> +const PRAMIN_SIZE: usize = 0x100000; // 1MB aperture - max access per window position >> + >> +/// Trait for types that can be read/written through PRAMIN. >> +pub(crate) trait PraminNum: Copy + Default + Sized { >> + fn read_from_bar(bar: &Bar0, offset: usize) -> Result<Self>; >> + >> + fn write_to_bar(self, bar: &Bar0, offset: usize) -> Result; >> + >> + fn size_bytes() -> usize { >> + mem::size_of::<Self>() >> + } >> + >> + fn alignment() -> usize { >> + Self::size_bytes() >> + } >> +} >> + >> +/// Macro to implement PraminNum trait for unsigned integer types. >> +macro_rules! impl_pramin_unsigned_num { >> + ($bits:literal) => { >> + ::kernel::macros::paste! { >> + impl PraminNum for [<u $bits>] { >> + fn read_from_bar(bar: &Bar0, offset: usize) -> Result<Self> { >> + bar.[<try_read $bits>](offset) >> + } >> + >> + fn write_to_bar(self, bar: &Bar0, offset: usize) -> Result { >> + bar.[<try_write $bits>](self, offset) >> + } >> + } >> + } >> + }; >> +} >> + >> +impl_pramin_unsigned_num!(8); >> +impl_pramin_unsigned_num!(16); >> +impl_pramin_unsigned_num!(32); >> +impl_pramin_unsigned_num!(64); >> + >> +/// Direct VRAM access through PRAMIN window before page tables are set up. >> +pub(crate) struct PraminVram<'a> { >> + bar: &'a Bar0, >> + saved_window_addr: usize, >> +} >> + >> +impl<'a> PraminVram<'a> { >> + /// Create a new PRAMIN VRAM accessor, saving current window state, >> + /// the state is restored when the accessor is dropped. >> + /// >> + /// The BAR0 window base must be 64KB aligned but provides 1MB of VRAM access. >> + /// Window is repositioned automatically when accessing data beyond 1MB boundaries. >> + pub(crate) fn new(bar: &'a Bar0) -> Self { >> + let saved_window_addr = Self::get_window_addr(bar); >> + Self { >> + bar, >> + saved_window_addr, >> + } >> + } >> + >> + /// Set BAR0 window to point to specific FB region. >> + /// >> + /// # Arguments >> + /// >> + /// * `fb_offset` - VRAM byte offset where the window should be positioned. >> + /// Must be 64KB aligned (lower 16 bits zero). >> + fn set_window_addr(&self, fb_offset: usize) -> Result { >> + // FB offset must be 64KB aligned (hardware requirement for window_base field) >> + // Once positioned, the window provides access to 1MB of VRAM through PRAMIN aperture >> + if fb_offset & 0xFFFF != 0 { >> + return Err(EINVAL); >> + } >> + >> + let window_reg = regs::NV_PBUS_BAR0_WINDOW::default().set_window_addr(fb_offset); >> + window_reg.write(self.bar); >> + >> + // Read back to ensure it took effect >> + let readback = regs::NV_PBUS_BAR0_WINDOW::read(self.bar); >> + if readback.window_base() != window_reg.window_base() { >> + return Err(EIO); >> + } > > Let's not "read it back to ensure it took effect". This is not required > by the hardware.Ok, it was more for my ascertaining that the write to effect, but you're right its not necessary so I'll remove it.>> + Ok(()) >> + } >> + >> + /// Get current BAR0 window offset. >> + /// >> + /// # Returns >> + /// >> + /// The byte offset in VRAM where the PRAMIN window is currently positioned. >> + /// This offset is always 64KB aligned. >> + fn get_window_addr(bar: &Bar0) -> usize { >> + let window_reg = regs::NV_PBUS_BAR0_WINDOW::read(bar); >> + window_reg.get_window_addr() >> + } >> + >> + /// Common logic for accessing VRAM data through PRAMIN with windowing. >> + /// >> + /// # Arguments >> + /// >> + /// * `fb_offset` - Starting byte offset in VRAM (framebuffer) where access begins. >> + /// Must be aligned to `T::alignment()`. >> + /// * `num_items` - Number of items of type `T` to process. >> + /// * `operation` - Closure called for each item to perform the actual read/write. >> + /// Takes two parameters: >> + /// - `data_idx`: Index of the item in the data array (0..num_items) >> + /// - `pramin_offset`: BAR0 offset in the PRAMIN aperture to access >> + /// >> + /// The function automatically handles PRAMIN window repositioning when accessing >> + /// data that spans multiple 1MB windows. >> + fn access_vram<T: PraminNum, F>( >> + &self, >> + fb_offset: usize, >> + num_items: usize, >> + mut operation: F, >> + ) -> Result > > This is far too much functionality, and the code can be made much smaller > and simpler. > and still get what we need. Open RM only supplies small accessors > (8 thru 64 bits wide), and no "bulk access". The calling code can loop if > necessary.The code uses a sliding window approach to reposition the moving window, abstracting away the details of the moving window from the caller. That simplifies the callers a lot as they don't need to "loop" and know when to move the window when they hit limits. They can also write to greater than 1MB. The bulk of the logic is in this function and the surrounding code is mostly wrappers, which part is complicated or that you did not understand? Just to note also, the PRAMIN moving window functionality in this patch allows us to not need BAR2 to access VRAM for instance memory. That is a code simplification then as we do not need code for BAR2 (the tradeoff being slightly slower instance memory access). I confirmed with the team that this is also an option. Abstracting the sliding window functionality becomes important then, so I'd not vote for removing this functionality for that reason. And if we ever use BAR2, having it is still useful because it allows us to have a fallback too for comparison/reference.> > We should do likewise, and avoid this. > > Then we can just create things such as write_u32() or write<u32>(), etc. > > And do we even *need* read?? I'm not sure we do.We do need reads as we walk through page tables structures. Note that the page tables are partially allocated by the GSP.> > This is hopefully showing the value of including the calling code, as > a follow-on patch in the series.Unfortunately, there are too many dependencies as I mentioned in the cover letter, so I would like to get functionality merged in stages. That's the best way to make good progress IMO for nova-core. Of course, we have to careful about design etc and I kept it as simple as possible out of that intention. My pramin patch was written 3-4 months ago now, so I'd like to not keep it too sitting comfortably in my tree. :). And this patch is critical for mm. That said, I'll go look at the usecases and APIs again and see if I can simplify anything more. thanks, - Joel