Markdown Discuss - Sep 2014 - On simplifying table syntax in any future markdown extension. (Use CSV)

Tables are used very often to help explain information that would
requires multiple paragraphs into a clear concise 2d layout. The issue
with making this feature optional means it won't be fully widespread.
And stuff like tables and anchors are common enough to be a core
standard.

A common complaint I understand about tables in markdown variants that
attempts to implement this, is that it is hard to maintain. So here is
some ways I think it can be simplified from "Markdown Extra" syntax
for this effort.

This is Markdown Extra Syntax for tables:

 | Item      | Value |
 | --------- | -----:|
 | Computer  | $1600 |
 | Phone     |   $12 |

First example (Compress the pipe headers):

To indicate a field is a header you use |-, -| .
For header alignment: |:- left aligned -|, |- right aligned -:| |:-
Centre aligned -:| .

|:- Header -:|:- Header -:|
|   Row      |   Row      |
|   Row      |   Row      |

Second Example ( CSV Input):

The second issue, is that people find it hard to have to deal with
formatting the pipes. If alignment of cell data is of no concern to
the user, then we should use CSV data as the inspiration.

I'm a big fan of CSV data, due to how easy it is to type. The ease of
use comes from sticking to csv which most people use already, and
combining it with a simplified table header.

If you still need alignment control for each cell, then you can just
use the previous (but simplified) pipe tables shown above using |:, :|

|:- Year -|:- Make  -|:- Model                         -:|
  1997,      Ford,      E350
  1999,      Chevy,    "Venture ""Extended
Edition"""
  1999,      Chevy,    "Venture ""Extended
Edition"""
  1996,      Jeep,      Grand Cherokee

 This is some other text, since the end of a table is implied by a new
paragraph.

example data from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma-separated_values

Essentially, just treat pipes as 'optional' for the actual cell data
(which is the field that gets modified most often anyway (compared to
the header). This way, we can avoid too much formatting, and heck if
you are lazy, you could just remove whitespaces and it shall still be
very maintainable like so:

|:- Year -|:- Make -|:- Model  -:|
1997, Ford, E350
1999, Chevy, "Venture ""Extended Edition"" "
1999, Chevy, "Venture ""Extended Edition"" "
1996, Jeep, Grand Cherokee

The second approach is my preference. Since I believe markdown is
about getting formatting out of the way of your writing.

> On Sep 5, 2014, at 5:28 AM, mofo syne <mofosyne at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The second issue, is that people find it hard to have to deal with
> formatting the pipes. If alignment of cell data is of no concern to
> the user, then we should use CSV data as the inspiration.
I've long been (openly) of the opinion that tables are not prose, and
therefore do not belong in markdown - except to fall back to raw HTML (see the
philosophy section of the syntax rules). On the other hand, I recognize that
sometimes a simple, unstyled table of simple tabular data has it's place and
having to revert to raw HTML is a little much. So, CSV -- I like it. Plain, raw
cvs gets converted to a table. That is something I might be able to get behind.

Not sure I like your headers though. Why can't they be comma separated as
well? Perhaps one character (at the beginning of the first line) could identify
that line as a header. Without that character, then you get no header. Yes, that
means you loose any ability to style, but I'm okay with that -- use raw HTML
if you want more control.

Waylan Limberg

Le 5-sept.-2014 ? 5:28, mofo syne <mofosyne at gmail.com> a ?crit :
> |:- Year -|:- Make -|:- Model  -:|
> 1997, Ford, E350
> 1999, Chevy, "Venture ""Extended Edition"" "
> 1999, Chevy, "Venture ""Extended Edition"" "
> 1996, Jeep, Grand Cherokee
Doesn't make much sense to me. I mean, it doesn't look too bad until you
get to the quoted text part and have to escape quotes using a CSV-style
double-quote escape instead of the Markdown-style backslash. Also, quoting the
whole value is required in CSV anytime you have a comma in one of your cell
which isn't a rare occurrence.

I think PSV (pipe-separated-value) is better because you're much less likely
to have pipes in your text. And also it's better to reuse our current escape
mechanism in the unlikely event you have pipes in your cells. And that brings us
back to what everyone is already using for tables in Markdown, which aren't
harder to maintain if you don't care about making the text form pretty.

This is also a perfectly valid Markdown Extra table:

	Year|Make|Model
	----|----|-----
	1997|Ford|E350
	1999|Chevy|Venture "Extended Edition"
	1999|Chevy|Venture "Extended Edition"
	1996|Jeep|Grand Cherokee


-- 
Michel Fortin
michel.fortin at michelf.ca
http://michelf.ca