llvm dev - Jun 2021 - [cfe-dev] Mailing List Status Update

On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 at 13:59, Tobias Hieta via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> I am very active in the Discord and try my best to help people and
> while I often refer people to post to the mailing list if they can't
> find an answer, I have never and never seen anyone direct new people
> to the IRC channel.
>
Well, it's not surprising that people who use Discord don't propose the
use
of IRC (and vice versa), but this doesn't make the community less fractured.

One thing I haven't seen in this discussion is the fact that
Discord
> and Discourse is way more approachable for people who haven't used IRC
> and email their whole life. I understand there must be a balance
> between keeping current contributors happy and attracting new ones.
> But keeping discussions in the mail-list over discourse would (In MY
> opinion) favor current/older contributors way higher than newer ones.
>
Attracting new people is very important for open source projects. Older
people (like me) tend to be a lot less passionate about changes. But this
is not a goal per se, just a constraint on other goals.

The main objective of the list is to discuss the project, long and hard
issues, and both old and new people can use mailing lists with pretty much
any mail client out there.

If the argument to move to Discourse is because it's better for long and
hard discussions for the majority of the community, then that's a clear
signal.

If it's just because it's where all the cool kids are these days, then I
think we're looking for the wrong goals.

5 years ago, all cool kids (*) were using Slack, now they're using
Discourse / Discord, who knows where they'll all be in 5 years time?

I don't think popularity should be a factor in choosing a new tool, or
we'll be eternally chasing doomed platforms.

cheers,
-renato

PS (*): My definition of "cool kids" may be different than yours,
Slack
probably was never "cool" for the masses... But we're hopefully
not
considering Instagram any time soon. :D
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> Well, it's not surprising that people who use Discord don't propose
the use of IRC (and vice versa), but this doesn't make the community less
fractured.
No I am not surprised about that - but the original message I replied
to made it seem like there was huge confusion and people where sent
back and forth between IRC and discord and that was what I wanted to
point out is not really happening.
> The main objective of the list is to discuss the project, long and hard
issues, and both old and new people can use mailing lists with pretty much any
mail client out there.
>
> If the argument to move to Discourse is because it's better for long
and hard discussions for the majority of the community, then that's a clear
signal.
I think this is important as well and from my point of view Discourse
is much better for long discussions:

* Code formatting is easy and much better than in any email
integration I have seen.
* Threading is more obvious and easier to follow
* No problems with "top posting" and replying to a single person
instead of the full list.
* Moderation tools were already touched on - but since I don't
moderate the mailing list I don't want to comment on it too much.
> If it's just because it's where all the cool kids are these days,
then I think we're looking for the wrong goals.
>
> 5 years ago, all cool kids (*) were using Slack, now they're using
Discourse / Discord, who knows where they'll all be in 5 years time?
>
> I don't think popularity should be a factor in choosing a new tool, or
we'll be eternally chasing doomed platforms.
I 100% agree, but we also shouldn't turn down a better/more accessible
alternative just because of inertia either.

I am not making a cool kids argument here, I can't in fact claim to be
a cool kid since I still program in C++.

-- Tobias