llvm dev - Jul 2020 - Inclusive language in LLVM: can we rename `master` branch?

While you can go the route of changing master to main or something similar,
you're up for a circlejerk you can not win. If you change technically
established terms each time someone gets offended, this will never end.
As a comparison, when studying in europe, you do your Master-Degree. In
Germany, when you finish your apprenticeship as carpenter and do the next
level, to actually lead with more responsibility, you do something which is
called "Meister" which is the German word for master.

Master isn't racist, and has never been in this context. If you just go on
with this, you'll allow random people to connotate any word the way they
like and how they see fit. You'll weaponize every word.

Am Mo., 22. Juni 2020 um 22:00 Uhr schrieb antlists via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>:
> On 21/06/2020 11:20, Renato Golin via llvm-dev wrote:
> > Words have many meanings in one single language. But English is not
> > just one language. To begin with, it's spoken natively in many
> > countries and totally different words and sometimes grammar are used.
> > But there's also the "international" English, which the
rest of the
> > world uses, especially in computer science. Lots of those words had no
> > other meaning to me before I moved into an English speaking country.
>
> You may be correct in that MODERN "English worldwide" has
diverged into
> a bunch of "similar but not the same" languages, but you're
also
> accidentally correct that, even in England, English is a not-complete
> merger of about five or six different languages! That's to say nothing
> of the other languages spoken elsewhere in the British Isles. Oh and
I'm
> not talking about modern immigrant languages of the last 200 years or so!
>
> American is a different language to English, "real" English is
the
> language of the Saxons in the south of Britain. They don't speak
English
> in Scotland - they speak a (very similar) language called Scots. Unless
> of course we rename our versions "Saxon", but that'll
probably piss off
> the Scots-speaking Anglish in the north, and the Saxons in Saxony ...
>
> Maybe I'm more sensitive than most, probably am, but I wish the
> Americans would have decency and national pride to do want plenty of
> other countries have done - NOT call their own language
"English".
> "American" would be perfect - the Australians call theirs
"Strine" (a
> contraction of Australian), Canadians call it Canadian English, I don't
> know where it is but there's Pidgin ... let's face it - MOST other
> countries have renamed their language to some degree or other.
>
> Cheers,
> Wol
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
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Sounds like a Slippery Slope fallacy to me - that we choose to change one
word doesn't mean we must change others. Clearly there are some words which
are offensive (we wouldn't want swear words in the codebase, for instance)
- so we're always going to have some discussion of what words are or are
not acceptable, doesn't mean we have to accept every word any specific
individual finds personally offensive.

On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 2:21 AM Alexander Benikowski via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> While you can go the route of changing master to main or something
> similar, you're up for a circlejerk you can not win. If you change
> technically established terms each time someone gets offended, this will
> never end.
> As a comparison, when studying in europe, you do your Master-Degree. In
> Germany, when you finish your apprenticeship as carpenter and do the next
> level, to actually lead with more responsibility, you do something which is
> called "Meister" which is the German word for master.
>
> Master isn't racist, and has never been in this context. If you just go
on
> with this, you'll allow random people to connotate any word the way
they
> like and how they see fit. You'll weaponize every word.
>
> Am Mo., 22. Juni 2020 um 22:00 Uhr schrieb antlists via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>:
>
>> On 21/06/2020 11:20, Renato Golin via llvm-dev wrote:
>> > Words have many meanings in one single language. But English is
not
>> > just one language. To begin with, it's spoken natively in many
>> > countries and totally different words and sometimes grammar are
used.
>> > But there's also the "international" English, which
the rest of the
>> > world uses, especially in computer science. Lots of those words
had no
>> > other meaning to me before I moved into an English speaking
country.
>>
>> You may be correct in that MODERN "English worldwide" has
diverged into
>> a bunch of "similar but not the same" languages, but
you're also
>> accidentally correct that, even in England, English is a not-complete
>> merger of about five or six different languages! That's to say
nothing
>> of the other languages spoken elsewhere in the British Isles. Oh and
I'm
>> not talking about modern immigrant languages of the last 200 years or
so!
>>
>> American is a different language to English, "real" English
is the
>> language of the Saxons in the south of Britain. They don't speak
English
>> in Scotland - they speak a (very similar) language called Scots. Unless
>> of course we rename our versions "Saxon", but that'll
probably piss off
>> the Scots-speaking Anglish in the north, and the Saxons in Saxony ...
>>
>> Maybe I'm more sensitive than most, probably am, but I wish the
>> Americans would have decency and national pride to do want plenty of
>> other countries have done - NOT call their own language
"English".
>> "American" would be perfect - the Australians call theirs
"Strine" (a
>> contraction of Australian), Canadians call it Canadian English, I
don't
>> know where it is but there's Pidgin ... let's face it - MOST
other
>> countries have renamed their language to some degree or other.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Wol
>> _______________________________________________
>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
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On 15/07/2020 18:36, David Blaikie via llvm-dev wrote:
> Sounds like a Slippery Slope fallacy to me - that we choose to change 
> one word doesn't mean we must change others. Clearly there are some 
> words which are offensive (we wouldn't want swear words in the
codebase,
> for instance) - so we're always going to have some discussion of what 
> words are or are not acceptable, doesn't mean we have to accept every 
> word any specific individual finds personally offensive.
I think the moderators have decided this is not technical, and this 
conversation shouldn't continue.

The problem, as I see it, is we have a bunch of "professional offence 
takers" who are taking offence ON BEHALF of other people. That isn't a 
slippery slope fallacy - that IS a slippery slope.

Anyways, if github change things upstream, it makes sense to me to 
follow them. Until then, this conversation ought to stop.

Cheers,
Wol