I'll comment from the perspective of someone that is in the Mesa, #dri-devel, #radeon channels myself and have watched their behaviour over the years. This is a real person that spams a load of information into a channel about their understanding of how hardware works. I have no idea what their goal is for spamming this information, could be some desire for acceptance from perceived smartness. Or something as simple as wanting to be hired for their "brilliance". Hard to tell. A major issue with their personality is that they will retaliate against anyone that tries to stop their ranting, and they become hostile with their phrasing very quickly because of it. Just check the logs for them retaliating against anyone that has kickbanned them. Another issue is that depending on their mood of the day, they may be entirely lost to any form of reasoning, which makes it difficult for any communication. So just to reiterate, they are a real person but are difficult to deal with. On that note, they aren't completely impossible to work with in some cases, it just might require accepting getting attacked for a few weeks. I'm a channel operator in one of the Mesa related IRC channels and have had success in communicating with them that their behaviour is not conducive to the environment that we were attempting to create in the channel. This took a bit of coaxing on their "good" days, and communicating with them while being attacked for around a month on end. At the end of this month-long attack and communication I was able to get them to understand that they aren't welcome to the channel. They no longer enter the channel that I moderate; I managed to get through to them on some level at least. Sadly this sort of baby sitting of a user shouldn't be required and requiring some thick skin to get through their harsh comments is difficult. More moderation will "work" but while they are rampaging, you're going to still have to watch the channel and you'll get a few lines of harassing text while an op takes a bit of time to see them (and sometimes even perceive them, on "good" days they make comments that make some sense initially). On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:03 PM Tom Stellard via llvm-dev < llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:> On 06/16/2020 07:27 AM, Renato Golin via llvm-dev wrote: > > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 15:06, Joerg Sonnenberger via llvm-dev > > <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote: > >> I also see little evidence that it would fix the problem of someone > >> having too much time on their hand and wants to be a nuisance. > > > > AFAICS, this is not the problem. > > > > The nicks are clearly randomly generated by smashing words together > > and the content seems to be what comes out of a language model after > > reading angry Facebook posts. > > > > Registering is quick and easy and would filter 99% of the automated > > accounts. Not 100% and not the people with too much time in their > > hands. But those, nothing will. > > > > It's like a bicycle lock: the bigger your lock, the more likely the > > thief will steal someone else's bike. But someone wanting *your* bike > > will take it, no matter the lock. > > I'm fairly certain that this is the same person that has been spamming > the #dri-devel and #radeon channels on freenode for years. The pattern > of comments is they same and I've seen them mention people in comments on > #llvm who only join those other channels. #dri-devel requires users to > identify > with the server and also uses extbans, but that hasn't really helped. > > I'm not sure how to solve this, but I think having more ops > (spread across all timezones) would help. > > -Tom > > > _______________________________________________ > > LLVM Developers mailing list > > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org > > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev > > > > _______________________________________________ > LLVM Developers mailing list > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/attachments/20200625/7a3cb1e9/attachment.html>
Seems like a useful machine-learning recognition task.... Lots of data... useful to automate... Low cost of false-negatives... On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 5:03 PM Ryan Houdek via llvm-dev < llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:> I'll comment from the perspective of someone that is in the Mesa, > #dri-devel, #radeon channels myself and have watched their behaviour over > the years. This is a real person that spams a load of information into a > channel about their understanding of how hardware works. > I have no idea what their goal is for spamming this information, could be > some desire for acceptance from perceived smartness. Or something as simple > as wanting to be hired for their "brilliance". Hard to tell. > A major issue with their personality is that they will retaliate against > anyone that tries to stop their ranting, and they become hostile with their > phrasing very quickly because of it. Just check the logs for them > retaliating against anyone that has kickbanned them. > Another issue is that depending on their mood of the day, they may be > entirely lost to any form of reasoning, which makes it difficult for any > communication. > So just to reiterate, they are a real person but are difficult to deal > with. > On that note, they aren't completely impossible to work with in some > cases, it just might require accepting getting attacked for a few weeks. > I'm a channel operator in one of the Mesa related IRC channels and have > had success in communicating with them that their behaviour is not > conducive to the environment that we were attempting to create in the > channel. > This took a bit of coaxing on their "good" days, and communicating with > them while being attacked for around a month on end. At the end of this > month-long attack and communication I was able to get them to understand > that they aren't welcome to the channel. > They no longer enter the channel that I moderate; I managed to get through > to them on some level at least. > Sadly this sort of baby sitting of a user shouldn't be required and > requiring some thick skin to get through their harsh comments is difficult. > More moderation will "work" but while they are rampaging, you're going to > still have to watch the channel and you'll get a few lines of harassing > text while an op takes a bit of time to see them (and sometimes even > perceive them, on "good" days they make comments that make some sense > initially). > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:03 PM Tom Stellard via llvm-dev < > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote: > >> On 06/16/2020 07:27 AM, Renato Golin via llvm-dev wrote: >> > On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 15:06, Joerg Sonnenberger via llvm-dev >> > <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote: >> >> I also see little evidence that it would fix the problem of someone >> >> having too much time on their hand and wants to be a nuisance. >> > >> > AFAICS, this is not the problem. >> > >> > The nicks are clearly randomly generated by smashing words together >> > and the content seems to be what comes out of a language model after >> > reading angry Facebook posts. >> > >> > Registering is quick and easy and would filter 99% of the automated >> > accounts. Not 100% and not the people with too much time in their >> > hands. But those, nothing will. >> > >> > It's like a bicycle lock: the bigger your lock, the more likely the >> > thief will steal someone else's bike. But someone wanting *your* bike >> > will take it, no matter the lock. >> >> I'm fairly certain that this is the same person that has been spamming >> the #dri-devel and #radeon channels on freenode for years. The pattern >> of comments is they same and I've seen them mention people in comments on >> #llvm who only join those other channels. #dri-devel requires users to >> identify >> with the server and also uses extbans, but that hasn't really helped. >> >> I'm not sure how to solve this, but I think having more ops >> (spread across all timezones) would help. >> >> -Tom >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > LLVM Developers mailing list >> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org >> > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> LLVM Developers mailing list >> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org >> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev >> > _______________________________________________ > LLVM Developers mailing list > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/attachments/20200625/4ae9b5a3/attachment.html>
We went with old school solutions, less sexy I know, but seems to be effective. @Renato, do you still feel there is much spam? P.S.I'm going to switch to your ML approach once ready ;) On 6/25/20 7:11 PM, Stephen Neuendorffer via llvm-dev wrote:> Seems like a useful machine-learning recognition task.... Lots of data... > useful to automate... Low cost of false-negatives... > > On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 5:03 PM Ryan Houdek via llvm-dev < > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote: > >> I'll comment from the perspective of someone that is in the Mesa, >> #dri-devel, #radeon channels myself and have watched their behaviour over >> the years. This is a real person that spams a load of information into a >> channel about their understanding of how hardware works. >> I have no idea what their goal is for spamming this information, could be >> some desire for acceptance from perceived smartness. Or something as simple >> as wanting to be hired for their "brilliance". Hard to tell. >> A major issue with their personality is that they will retaliate against >> anyone that tries to stop their ranting, and they become hostile with their >> phrasing very quickly because of it. Just check the logs for them >> retaliating against anyone that has kickbanned them. >> Another issue is that depending on their mood of the day, they may be >> entirely lost to any form of reasoning, which makes it difficult for any >> communication. >> So just to reiterate, they are a real person but are difficult to deal >> with. >> On that note, they aren't completely impossible to work with in some >> cases, it just might require accepting getting attacked for a few weeks. >> I'm a channel operator in one of the Mesa related IRC channels and have >> had success in communicating with them that their behaviour is not >> conducive to the environment that we were attempting to create in the >> channel. >> This took a bit of coaxing on their "good" days, and communicating with >> them while being attacked for around a month on end. At the end of this >> month-long attack and communication I was able to get them to understand >> that they aren't welcome to the channel. >> They no longer enter the channel that I moderate; I managed to get through >> to them on some level at least. >> Sadly this sort of baby sitting of a user shouldn't be required and >> requiring some thick skin to get through their harsh comments is difficult. >> More moderation will "work" but while they are rampaging, you're going to >> still have to watch the channel and you'll get a few lines of harassing >> text while an op takes a bit of time to see them (and sometimes even >> perceive them, on "good" days they make comments that make some sense >> initially). >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:03 PM Tom Stellard via llvm-dev < >> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote: >> >>> On 06/16/2020 07:27 AM, Renato Golin via llvm-dev wrote: >>>> On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 15:06, Joerg Sonnenberger via llvm-dev >>>> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote: >>>>> I also see little evidence that it would fix the problem of someone >>>>> having too much time on their hand and wants to be a nuisance. >>>> AFAICS, this is not the problem. >>>> >>>> The nicks are clearly randomly generated by smashing words together >>>> and the content seems to be what comes out of a language model after >>>> reading angry Facebook posts. >>>> >>>> Registering is quick and easy and would filter 99% of the automated >>>> accounts. Not 100% and not the people with too much time in their >>>> hands. But those, nothing will. >>>> >>>> It's like a bicycle lock: the bigger your lock, the more likely the >>>> thief will steal someone else's bike. But someone wanting *your* bike >>>> will take it, no matter the lock. >>> I'm fairly certain that this is the same person that has been spamming >>> the #dri-devel and #radeon channels on freenode for years. The pattern >>> of comments is they same and I've seen them mention people in comments on >>> #llvm who only join those other channels. #dri-devel requires users to >>> identify >>> with the server and also uses extbans, but that hasn't really helped. >>> >>> I'm not sure how to solve this, but I think having more ops >>> (spread across all timezones) would help. >>> >>> -Tom >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> LLVM Developers mailing list >>>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org >>>> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> LLVM Developers mailing list >>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org >>> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> LLVM Developers mailing list >> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org >> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev >> > > _______________________________________________ > LLVM Developers mailing list > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/attachments/20200625/1c318f54/attachment.html>
On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 01:03, Ryan Houdek <sonicadvance1 at gmail.com> wrote:> I'll comment from the perspective of someone that is in the Mesa, #dri-devel, #radeon channels myself and have watched their behaviour over the years. This is a real person that spams a load of information into a channel about their understanding of how hardware works.Hi Ryan, Yeah, half-way through I realised, as some other people pointed out, it is a real person. I identified as a robot for two main reasons: 1. Really confusing sentences, intermixing completely unrelated subjects and starting a new phrase before the old one was finished. This is very typical of markov chain or cheap language models trained with a small subset of unrelated texts. It's also unfortunately common in people who can't help but work on multiple trains of thought (like me). 2. The random names and fast rejoin were consistent with either a mindless bot, or a very persistent individual. I couldn't fathom why a person would do that, so I assumed bot. That was on me for not seeing it far enough.> I have no idea what their goal is for spamming this information, could be some desire for acceptance from perceived smartness. Or something as simple as wanting to be hired for their "brilliance". Hard to tell. > A major issue with their personality is that they will retaliate against anyone that tries to stop their ranting, and they become hostile with their phrasing very quickly because of it. Just check the logs for them retaliating against anyone that has kickbanned them. > Another issue is that depending on their mood of the day, they may be entirely lost to any form of reasoning, which makes it difficult for any communication.There are plenty of life situations that make smart people behave erratically or crack entirely, most of them mundane to the majority of people. It's not fun.> On that note, they aren't completely impossible to work with in some cases, it just might require accepting getting attacked for a few weeks. > I'm a channel operator in one of the Mesa related IRC channels and have had success in communicating with them that their behaviour is not conducive to the environment that we were attempting to create in the channel. > This took a bit of coaxing on their "good" days, and communicating with them while being attacked for around a month on end. At the end of this month-long attack and communication I was able to get them to understand that they aren't welcome to the channel. > They no longer enter the channel that I moderate; I managed to get through to them on some level at least.I'm impressed with your care and stamina. Not many people I know would have gone that far. Thank you for doing that.> Sadly this sort of baby sitting of a user shouldn't be required and requiring some thick skin to get through their harsh comments is difficult. > More moderation will "work" but while they are rampaging, you're going to still have to watch the channel and you'll get a few lines of harassing text while an op takes a bit of time to see them (and sometimes even perceive them, on "good" days they make comments that make some sense initially).Any kind of barrier should be enough to get bots and persistent individuals to stop. Moderators, registration, etc. I think in the end it worked out well. People quickly realised those words were meaningless (in the context of the particular channel), and worked to stop the flood. cheers, --renato
Is the channel now purposefully invite-only? If so, how is one supposed to join? Thanks, Stefan On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 12:23 PM Renato Golin via llvm-dev < llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 01:03, Ryan Houdek <sonicadvance1 at gmail.com> wrote: > > I'll comment from the perspective of someone that is in the Mesa, > #dri-devel, #radeon channels myself and have watched their behaviour over > the years. This is a real person that spams a load of information into a > channel about their understanding of how hardware works. > > Hi Ryan, > > Yeah, half-way through I realised, as some other people pointed out, > it is a real person. > > I identified as a robot for two main reasons: > 1. Really confusing sentences, intermixing completely unrelated > subjects and starting a new phrase before the old one was finished. > This is very typical of markov chain or cheap language models trained > with a small subset of unrelated texts. It's also unfortunately common > in people who can't help but work on multiple trains of thought (like > me). > 2. The random names and fast rejoin were consistent with either a > mindless bot, or a very persistent individual. I couldn't fathom why a > person would do that, so I assumed bot. That was on me for not seeing > it far enough. > > > I have no idea what their goal is for spamming this information, could > be some desire for acceptance from perceived smartness. Or something as > simple as wanting to be hired for their "brilliance". Hard to tell. > > A major issue with their personality is that they will retaliate against > anyone that tries to stop their ranting, and they become hostile with their > phrasing very quickly because of it. Just check the logs for them > retaliating against anyone that has kickbanned them. > > Another issue is that depending on their mood of the day, they may be > entirely lost to any form of reasoning, which makes it difficult for any > communication. > > There are plenty of life situations that make smart people behave > erratically or crack entirely, most of them mundane to the majority of > people. It's not fun. > > > On that note, they aren't completely impossible to work with in some > cases, it just might require accepting getting attacked for a few weeks. > > I'm a channel operator in one of the Mesa related IRC channels and have > had success in communicating with them that their behaviour is not > conducive to the environment that we were attempting to create in the > channel. > > This took a bit of coaxing on their "good" days, and communicating with > them while being attacked for around a month on end. At the end of this > month-long attack and communication I was able to get them to understand > that they aren't welcome to the channel. > > They no longer enter the channel that I moderate; I managed to get > through to them on some level at least. > > I'm impressed with your care and stamina. Not many people I know would > have gone that far. Thank you for doing that. > > > Sadly this sort of baby sitting of a user shouldn't be required and > requiring some thick skin to get through their harsh comments is difficult. > > More moderation will "work" but while they are rampaging, you're going > to still have to watch the channel and you'll get a few lines of harassing > text while an op takes a bit of time to see them (and sometimes even > perceive them, on "good" days they make comments that make some sense > initially). > > Any kind of barrier should be enough to get bots and persistent > individuals to stop. Moderators, registration, etc. > > I think in the end it worked out well. People quickly realised those > words were meaningless (in the context of the particular channel), and > worked to stop the flood. > > cheers, > --renato > _______________________________________________ > LLVM Developers mailing list > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/attachments/20200628/9e5c3c55/attachment-0001.html>