llvm dev - Jun 2020 - Inclusive language in LLVM: can we rename `master` branch?

On 19/06/2020 12:56, Renato Golin via llvm-dev wrote:
> I never associated any of those words with their negative
> connotations, either, but this is because of my upbringing and some of
> the privileges I enjoy from our broken society.
> 
> I always associated the word "master" as reverential, like with
> martial arts, Jedi kind of thing. And to me, "white" and
"black" (on
> list, hat) had to do with day and night (when the monsters come out).
> 
> But I'm also painfully aware that small amends to our mental model
> could improve the lives of many people. Every little bit counts.
AOL.

As an *English* speaker (as in "not American"), I also see
"master" as -
not exactly reverential - but as a leader (or a youngster - the 
diminutive of Mister).

And reading the link against it, almost the first post I read was an 
African American saying that a lot of this was totally irrelevant to 
him, and was a lot of white people speaking on his behalf without 
actually bothering to ask him what *he* wanted.

If changing terminology makes things clearer (and I think it does here, 
especially for non-native speakers), then I'm all for it, but not just 
because the Americans are trying to solve their political angst.

ALL words have overtones, and all the variations of 
English/American/Strine/Pidgin/Whatever-else-I-can't-name make life very 
difficult. I was never able to participate properly when the subject of 
race came up on Groklaw - "black" was seen as an offensive and banned 
word, and of course I can't use the phrase "African American". The
equivalent here if I said "African Brit" stinks of an accusation of
"you
traitor!" They're not Africans, they're Caribbeans or Nigerians, or
or
or. And many Africans are White South Africans, and some Caribbeans 
(like me) are also white.

How many people here remember Michael Portillo's "Cricket Test"
for
whether you are English (the joke here being *he* was of Spanish descent).

So please do things for sound *technical* reasons, and sod the 
Politically Correct. That's usually an excuse for oppression by the 
Morally Superior.

Cheers,
Wol

On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 1:42 AM antlists via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> On 19/06/2020 12:56, Renato Golin via llvm-dev wrote:
> > I never associated any of those words with their negative
> > connotations, either, but this is because of my upbringing and some of
> > the privileges I enjoy from our broken society.
> >
> > I always associated the word "master" as reverential, like
with
> > martial arts, Jedi kind of thing. And to me, "white" and
"black" (on
> > list, hat) had to do with day and night (when the monsters come out).
> >
> > But I'm also painfully aware that small amends to our mental model
> > could improve the lives of many people. Every little bit counts.
>
> AOL.
>
> As an *English* speaker (as in "not American"), I also see
"master" as -
> not exactly reverential - but as a leader (or a youngster - the
> diminutive of Mister).
>
> And reading the link against it, almost the first post I read was an
> African American saying that a lot of this was totally irrelevant to
> him, and was a lot of white people speaking on his behalf without
> actually bothering to ask him what *he* wanted.
>
> If changing terminology makes things clearer (and I think it does here,
> especially for non-native speakers), then I'm all for it, but not just
> because the Americans are trying to solve their political angst.
>
> ALL words have overtones, and all the variations of
> English/American/Strine/Pidgin/Whatever-else-I-can't-name make life
very
> difficult. I was never able to participate properly when the subject of
> race came up on Groklaw - "black" was seen as an offensive and
banned
> word, and of course I can't use the phrase "African
American". The
> equivalent here if I said "African Brit" stinks of an accusation
of "you
> traitor!" They're not Africans, they're Caribbeans or
Nigerians, or or
> or. And many Africans are White South Africans, and some Caribbeans
> (like me) are also white.
>
> How many people here remember Michael Portillo's "Cricket
Test" for
> whether you are English (the joke here being *he* was of Spanish descent).
>
> So please do things for sound *technical* reasons, and sod the
> Politically Correct. That's usually an excuse for oppression by the
> Morally Superior.
Indeed. In over 35 years developing software, I've never thought of
"master" with that connotation. Why not rename "race
condition" too?
Or the sleep() C function? Or even better, why don't we get rid of all
our languages and start a new one? Or why don't we erase History? This
is not about race, because most African friends I have tell me they
prefer in fact the "black" word. It's not about race, but about
using
race for another purpose.

This is now an over 64 posts thread now. In the meantime, no threads
on improving the 7%-10% compile time slowdown reported for 10.0.0. I
fully understand Rafael Ávila de Espíndola leaving and I sympathise
100%.

ardi

On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 12:25 PM ardi via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>
wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 1:42 AM antlists via llvm-dev
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 19/06/2020 12:56, Renato Golin via llvm-dev wrote:
> > > I never associated any of those words with their negative
> > > connotations, either, but this is because of my upbringing and
some of
> > > the privileges I enjoy from our broken society.
> > >
> > > I always associated the word "master" as reverential,
like with
> > > martial arts, Jedi kind of thing. And to me, "white"
and "black" (on
> > > list, hat) had to do with day and night (when the monsters come
out).
> > >
> > > But I'm also painfully aware that small amends to our mental
model
> > > could improve the lives of many people. Every little bit counts.
> >
> > AOL.
> >
> > As an *English* speaker (as in "not American"), I also see
"master" as -
> > not exactly reverential - but as a leader (or a youngster - the
> > diminutive of Mister).
> >
> > And reading the link against it, almost the first post I read was an
> > African American saying that a lot of this was totally irrelevant to
> > him, and was a lot of white people speaking on his behalf without
> > actually bothering to ask him what *he* wanted.
> >
> > If changing terminology makes things clearer (and I think it does
here,
> > especially for non-native speakers), then I'm all for it, but not
just
> > because the Americans are trying to solve their political angst.
> >
> > ALL words have overtones, and all the variations of
> > English/American/Strine/Pidgin/Whatever-else-I-can't-name make
life very
> > difficult. I was never able to participate properly when the subject
of
> > race came up on Groklaw - "black" was seen as an offensive
and banned
> > word, and of course I can't use the phrase "African
American". The
> > equivalent here if I said "African Brit" stinks of an
accusation of "you
> > traitor!" They're not Africans, they're Caribbeans or
Nigerians, or or
> > or. And many Africans are White South Africans, and some Caribbeans
> > (like me) are also white.
> >
> > How many people here remember Michael Portillo's "Cricket
Test" for
> > whether you are English (the joke here being *he* was of Spanish
> descent).
> >
> > So please do things for sound *technical* reasons, and sod the
> > Politically Correct. That's usually an excuse for oppression by
the
> > Morally Superior.
>
> Indeed. In over 35 years developing software, I've never thought of
> "master" with that connotation. Why not rename "race
condition" too?
> Or the sleep() C function? Or even better, why don't we get rid of all
> our languages and start a new one? Or why don't we erase History? This
> is not about race, because most African friends I have tell me they
> prefer in fact the "black" word. It's not about race, but
about using
> race for another purpose.
>
> This is now an over 64 posts thread now. In the meantime, no threads
> on improving the 7%-10% compile time slowdown reported for 10.0.0. I
> fully understand Rafael Ávila de Espíndola leaving and I sympathise
> 100%.
>
I'm a bit sad that you felt like taking the effort of sending your email
while you could have just ignored this thread and improved the compile time
by 7-10% in the same amount of time.

Looking forward to the compile time improvements though! Feel free to add
me as a reviewer, I'll be happy to help you get these patches in!

Best,


-- 
Mehdi
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