llvm dev - Nov 2019 - Fwd: RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Slack's community moderation features are pretty terrible - it's simply 
not set up for managing public-facing communities; it's set up for 
managing private workplace team collaboration.  The best way to try to 
explain the features which are missing are to look at something like the 
Matrix moderation guide (https://matrix.org/docs/guides/moderation/); 
many of these features are missing in Slack.

On 19/11/2019 17:51, Zachary Turner via llvm-dev wrote:
> I suspected it may be related to Discord's heavy emphasis on 
> role-based permissions, but it would be good to get an official 
> answer.  Slack definitely does have administrators, and Administrators 
> can kick people out of the slack, which... might be sufficient?  I 
> don't know . From a usability standpoint, Discord is vastly inferior 
> to Slack so I think it's worth doing this comparison
>
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 7:38 AM Finkel, Hal J. <hfinkel at anl.gov 
> <mailto:hfinkel at anl.gov>> wrote:
>
>
>     On 11/19/19 9:09 AM, Zachary Turner via llvm-dev wrote:
>>     Note there is also Slack, which does not have these problems. 
>>     Not sure why that keeps being overlooked
>
>
>     My understanding is this is because Slack does not have good
>     moderation tools. I'm unfamiliar with further details in this
regard.
>
>      -Hal
>
>
>>
-- 
Matthew Hodgson
Matrix.org

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What I'm curious about is how often that level of control over moderation
has been needed in the past with our IRC.  I certainly agree that it's
missing many moderation features, I'm just not yet convinced that we need
those moderation features.

Redactions (Removing Messages) - We can't do that with IRC either
Managing Abusive Display Names / Avatars - We can kick people from the Slack
Power levels / Roles - IRC has this in very limited capacity, but I don't
believe we've ever needed anything other than "normal user" and
"admin".
Slack has that.
Kicking and banning users - Slack has this
(I don't know what the rest of the topics are about under Moderating Rooms)

Consenting to Terms and Conditions - IRC doesn't have this
Removing users, rooms and content - Slack Admins can do this
Banning clients by IP - We probably don't want to do this anyway as it
could cause an entire organization to be banned

Reporting bad content  - Discord doesn't do this
Blocking users  - This one seems valid, Discord does allow you to do this
and so does IRC.  I actually don't know if Slack does.

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 10:03 AM Matthew Hodgson via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> Slack's community moderation features are pretty terrible - it's
simply
> not set up for managing public-facing communities; it's set up for
managing
> private workplace team collaboration.  The best way to try to explain the
> features which are missing are to look at something like the Matrix
> moderation guide (https://matrix.org/docs/guides/moderation/); many of
> these features are missing in Slack.
> On 19/11/2019 17:51, Zachary Turner via llvm-dev wrote:
>
> I suspected it may be related to Discord's heavy emphasis on role-based
> permissions, but it would be good to get an official answer.  Slack
> definitely does have administrators, and Administrators can kick people out
> of the slack, which...  might be sufficient?  I don't know . From a
> usability standpoint, Discord is vastly inferior to Slack so I think
it's
> worth doing this comparison
>
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 7:38 AM Finkel, Hal J. <hfinkel at anl.gov>
wrote:
>
>>
>> On 11/19/19 9:09 AM, Zachary Turner via llvm-dev wrote:
>>
>> Note there is also Slack, which does not have these problems.  Not sure
>> why that keeps being overlooked
>>
>>
>> My understanding is this is because Slack does not have good moderation
>> tools. I'm unfamiliar with further details in this regard.
>>
>>  -Hal
>>
>>
>>
>> --
> Matthew Hodgson
> Matrix.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
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Not trying to advocate anything here, so point of order...

On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 at 18:30, Zachary Turner via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> Redactions (Removing Messages) - We can't do that with IRC either
IRC is completely ephemeral though (barring people's personal logs),
which is one of the things that both proposed alternatives seem to
change. Slack appears to allow moderators to remove messages.

Cheers.

Tim.

In our experience, the fact that IRC is niche and relatively 
inaccessible and lo-fi means that it's much less likely to suffer abuse; 
it's effectively security through obscurity.  However, if you want to 
expand your community to be more accessible and inclusive, then by 
definition you make it easier for bad actors to enter and participate as 
well as constructive participants.  Throw in richer content such as 
images, videos, avatars, file transfer, large messages, etc and sadly 
you find yourself needing better moderation tools.  ymmv of course.

On 19/11/2019 18:30, Zachary Turner wrote:
>   What I'm curious about is how often that level of control over 
> moderation has been needed in the past with our IRC.  I certainly 
> agree that it's missing many moderation features, I'm just not yet 
> convinced that we need those moderation features.
>
> Redactions (Removing Messages) - We can't do that with IRC either
> Managing Abusive Display Names / Avatars - We can kick people from the 
> Slack
> Power levels / Roles - IRC has this in very limited capacity, but I 
> don't believe we've ever needed anything other than "normal
user" and
> "admin".  Slack has that.
> Kicking and banning users - Slack has this
> (I don't know what the rest of the topics are about under Moderating 
> Rooms)
>
> Consenting to Terms and Conditions - IRC doesn't have this
> Removing users, rooms and content - Slack Admins can do this
> Banning clients by IP - We probably don't want to do this anyway as it 
> could cause an entire organization to be banned
>
> Reporting bad content  - Discord doesn't do this
> Blocking users  - This one seems valid, Discord does allow you to do 
> this and so does IRC.  I actually don't know if Slack does.
>
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 10:03 AM Matthew Hodgson via llvm-dev 
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
>
>     Slack's community moderation features are pretty terrible -
it's
>     simply not set up for managing public-facing communities; it's set
>     up for managing private workplace team collaboration.  The best
>     way to try to explain the features which are missing are to look
>     at something like the Matrix moderation guide
>     (https://matrix.org/docs/guides/moderation/); many of these
>     features are missing in Slack.
>
>     On 19/11/2019 17:51, Zachary Turner via llvm-dev wrote:
>>     I suspected it may be related to Discord's heavy emphasis on
>>     role-based permissions, but it would be good to get an official
>>     answer.  Slack definitely does have administrators, and
>>     Administrators can kick people out of the slack, which...  might
>>     be sufficient? I don't know . From a usability standpoint,
>>     Discord is vastly inferior to Slack so I think it's worth doing
>>     this comparison
>>
>>     On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 7:38 AM Finkel, Hal J. <hfinkel at
anl.gov
>>     <mailto:hfinkel at anl.gov>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>         On 11/19/19 9:09 AM, Zachary Turner via llvm-dev wrote:
>>>         Note there is also Slack, which does not have these
>>>         problems.  Not sure why that keeps being overlooked
>>
>>
>>         My understanding is this is because Slack does not have good
>>         moderation tools. I'm unfamiliar with further details in
this
>>         regard.
>>
>>          -Hal
>>
>>
>>>
>     -- 
>     Matthew Hodgson
>     Matrix.org
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     LLVM Developers mailing list
>     llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
>     https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
-- 
Matthew Hodgson
Matrix.org

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