llvm dev - Nov 2019 - RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 11:32 AM David Tellenbach via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>  Hi all,
>
> +1 from my side for using "faster" or "more direct"
communication channels
> such
> as Discord (no strong opinion on the choice of any particular tool here)
> for
> informal chats and discussions on a "support level". This is
includes user
> questions but also questions that can be easily answered using community
> knowledge. I think of things like "How to I build clang for option
abc" or
> "How do I access all instructions in a basic block?"
>
> Strong -1 for any attempts to replace the mailing list (but no strong
> opinion on
> providing additional possibilities to interact with it, such as mirrored
> forums
> etc.) as primary and definitive communication channel.
>
> It should be absolutely enough to follow llvm-dev to be completely informed
> about any major RFC, discussion or design decisions.
>
If your concern is to be able to stay informed by email, then subscribing
to the right "category" on Discourse should provide exactly this
(everyone
can select their notification preferences on Discourse).
Is there something more you need that I missed?

Best,

-- 
Mehdi



>
>     David
>
> On 18. Nov 2019, at 08:48, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
>
> *Short version:*I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat
> (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email
> lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and
> still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to
this
> thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both
> services have dedicated feedback channels.
>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not
> to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists
> and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion
with
> are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse
> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it
isn't lost.
>
>
> *Longer version & more details:*During this year's Women in
Compilers and
> Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems
> cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out
> about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing
> lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often
> intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to
> change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and
> important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let
> go of my precious IRC. ;]
>
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the
> most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form
> discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse
> server. You can find them here:
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for
folks
> to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse,
> and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse
and
> Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements
to
> these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you
set
> up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>
>    - Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>    - Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one
>    place, etc.
>       - See the plan here:
>      
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>    - Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
>    - Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
>    similarly email-focused workflow.
>
>
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously
try
> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have
> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of
> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very
> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously
> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving
> me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of
> things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less
> established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak
> up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to
> address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for
> organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home
> to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I
wouldn't
> have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.
>
> -Chandler
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
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Discourse archives are not searchable on the web.

Unsurprisingly, this discussion thread is evolving almost exactly like the
Chromium thread where Slack was introduced a few years ago.  Half the
people are concerned about losing the mailing list, missing conversations
that don't occur in their time zone, and fragmentation.  The other half are
saying "it's just like what IRC is today only more modern".

And I think, much like what happened during the Chromium proposal, we
should make it clear that replacing mailing lists is a non-starter and not
open for discussion.  It should be clear that this is basically just a more
modern IRC.  Framed that way, it almost doesn't even seem worth discussing
*whether* it should happen, because I can't think of a good reason for it
*not* to.  Instead, we should just switch to focusing on the how.  Is it
Discord, Discourse, Slack, or something else?

If someone has a concern that is unique to Discord/Discourse/Slack that
doesn't exist in today's IRC world, we can certainly discuss that, but
so
far I haven't seen anything along those lines in this thread.

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 11:48 AM Mehdi AMINI via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 11:32 AM David Tellenbach via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
>>  Hi all,
>>
>> +1 from my side for using "faster" or "more direct"
communication
>> channels such
>> as Discord (no strong opinion on the choice of any particular tool
here)
>> for
>> informal chats and discussions on a "support level". This is
includes user
>> questions but also questions that can be easily answered using
community
>> knowledge. I think of things like "How to I build clang for option
abc" or
>> "How do I access all instructions in a basic block?"
>>
>> Strong -1 for any attempts to replace the mailing list (but no strong
>> opinion on
>> providing additional possibilities to interact with it, such as
mirrored
>> forums
>> etc.) as primary and definitive communication channel.
>>
>> It should be absolutely enough to follow llvm-dev to be completely
>> informed
>> about any major RFC, discussion or design decisions.
>>
>
> If your concern is to be able to stay informed by email, then subscribing
> to the right "category" on Discourse should provide exactly this
(everyone
> can select their notification preferences on Discourse).
> Is there something more you need that I missed?
>
> Best,
>
> --
> Mehdi
>
>
>
>
>>
>>     David
>>
>> On 18. Nov 2019, at 08:48, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>>
>> *Short version:*I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time
chat
>> (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to
email
>> lists):
>> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>>
>> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up
>> and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach
out to
>> this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also,
both
>> services have dedicated feedback channels.
>>
>> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try
not
>> to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the
lists
>> and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion
with
>> are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse
>> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it
isn't lost.
>>
>>
>> *Longer version & more details:*During this year's Women in
Compilers
>> and Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication
>> systems cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to
>> find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and
>> mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult,
and
>> often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and
>> resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was
>> compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it
means
>> I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>>
>> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and
>> the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
>> longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial
Discord
>> and Discourse server. You can find them here:
>> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>>
>> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for
folks
>> to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in
Discourse,
>> and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both
Discourse and
>> Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of
improvements to
>> these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get
you set
>> up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>>
>>    - Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>>    - Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one
>>    place, etc.
>>       - See the plan here:
>>      
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>>    - Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
>>    - Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
>>    similarly email-focused workflow.
>>
>>
>> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to
seriously try
>> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of
the
>> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also
have
>> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow
of
>> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has
very
>> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should
seriously
>> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>>
>> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for
>> giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these
>> kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to
>> people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It
takes a
>> lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also
>> helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks
to
>> Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this
>> message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things
set
>> up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially
around
>> Discord bots.
>>
>> -Chandler
>> _______________________________________________
>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
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On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 12:43 PM Zachary Turner <zturner at roblox.com>
wrote:
> Discourse archives are not searchable on the web.
>
Just to clear up any confusion with Discord here because the names are
close: Discourse is totally unrelated to Discord, it is open-source
https://github.com/discourse/discourse and does not share (I believe) the
same questions about terms of uses etc. with Discord.

Archives are searchable with Google similarly to our mailing-list archives
I think, taking the Swift forums for example: site:forums.swift.org/ dynamic
<https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&sxsrf=ACYBGNRX6fLtkaDIJfBsnedxaq9g_qhZGw%3A1574110996733&ei=FAfTXdiyLLPE0PEP9OyBgAQ&q=site%3Aforums.swift.org%2F+dynamic&oq=site%3Aforums.swift.org%2F+dynamic&gs_l=psy-ab.3...5614.7150..7293...1.0..0.268.928.5j3j1......0....1..gws-wiz.93RAuv2M4rY&ved=0ahUKEwjYjLC21PTlAhUzIjQIHXR2AEAQ4dUDCAo&uact=5>

Moreover the builtin search is allowing to search in sub-categories which
can be really convenient compared to the mailing-list:
https://forums.swift.org/search?q=package%20category%3A18

-- 
Mehdi





> Unsurprisingly, this discussion thread is evolving almost exactly like the
> Chromium thread where Slack was introduced a few years ago.  Half the
> people are concerned about losing the mailing list, missing conversations
> that don't occur in their time zone, and fragmentation.  The other half
are
> saying "it's just like what IRC is today only more modern".
>
> And I think, much like what happened during the Chromium proposal, we
> should make it clear that replacing mailing lists is a non-starter and not
> open for discussion.  It should be clear that this is basically just a more
> modern IRC.  Framed that way, it almost doesn't even seem worth
discussing
> *whether* it should happen, because I can't think of a good reason for
it
> *not* to.  Instead, we should just switch to focusing on the how.  Is it
> Discord, Discourse, Slack, or something else?
>
> If someone has a concern that is unique to Discord/Discourse/Slack that
> doesn't exist in today's IRC world, we can certainly discuss that,
but so
> far I haven't seen anything along those lines in this thread.
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 11:48 AM Mehdi AMINI via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 11:32 AM David Tellenbach via llvm-dev <
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>
>>>  Hi all,
>>>
>>> +1 from my side for using "faster" or "more
direct" communication
>>> channels such
>>> as Discord (no strong opinion on the choice of any particular tool
here)
>>> for
>>> informal chats and discussions on a "support level". This
is includes
>>> user
>>> questions but also questions that can be easily answered using
community
>>> knowledge. I think of things like "How to I build clang for
option abc"
>>> or
>>> "How do I access all instructions in a basic block?"
>>>
>>> Strong -1 for any attempts to replace the mailing list (but no
strong
>>> opinion on
>>> providing additional possibilities to interact with it, such as
mirrored
>>> forums
>>> etc.) as primary and definitive communication channel.
>>>
>>> It should be absolutely enough to follow llvm-dev to be completely
>>> informed
>>> about any major RFC, discussion or design decisions.
>>>
>>
>> If your concern is to be able to stay informed by email, then
subscribing
>> to the right "category" on Discourse should provide exactly
this (everyone
>> can select their notification preferences on Discourse).
>> Is there something more you need that I missed?
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> --
>> Mehdi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>     David
>>>
>>> On 18. Nov 2019, at 08:48, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <
>>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>
>>>
>>> *Short version:*I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real
time chat
>>> (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar
to email
>>> lists):
>>> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>>> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>>>
>>> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set
up
>>> and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or
reach out to
>>> this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix.
Also, both
>>> services have dedicated feedback channels.
>>>
>>> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although
try
>>> not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would
between the
>>> lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the
discussion
>>> with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case
Discourse
>>> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so
it isn't lost.
>>>
>>>
>>> *Longer version & more details:*During this year's Women in
Compilers
>>> and Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our
communication
>>> systems cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people
trying to
>>> find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting
and
>>> mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar,
difficult, and
>>> often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and
>>> resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT
was
>>> compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if
it means
>>> I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>>>
>>> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there
and
>>> the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
>>> longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial
Discord
>>> and Discourse server. You can find them here:
>>> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>>> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>>>
>>> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great
for
>>> folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups
in
>>> Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate
on both
>>> Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a
specific set of
>>> improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or
Meike and we
>>> can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working
on:
>>>
>>>    - Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>>>    - Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in
one
>>>    place, etc.
>>>       - See the plan here:
>>>      
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>>>    - Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
>>>    - Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving
a
>>>    similarly email-focused workflow.
>>>
>>>
>>> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to
seriously try
>>> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one
of the
>>> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but
also have
>>> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant
flow of
>>> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse
has very
>>> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should
seriously
>>> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>>>
>>> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for
>>> giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around
these
>>> kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed
to
>>> people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It
takes a
>>> lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this
also
>>> helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge
thanks to
>>> Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive
this
>>> message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these
things set
>>> up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help,
especially around
>>> Discord bots.
>>>
>>> -Chandler
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>>> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>>> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>>
>
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As Mehdi mentioned in his email, Discourse archives are searchable via Google.

I think we should definitely talk about replacing llvm-dev (and other
development discussion lists).  The contents of email lists for commits and bugs
are in large part automatically generated, and I’m not sure if there would be
much value in switching those (aside from any technical complications).

I’m much in favor of using a web-based forum (such as Discourse) for the mailing
lists that are used for discussions, and here are some reasons:

  1.  Browsing mailing list archives is not user-friendly.  It’s possible, but
if we’re trying to be accommodating to new users, this is not the way to go.  A
web forum is, by design, much friendlier.
  2.  When you subscribe to a mailing list, you only get emails from the time
you subscribed.  To see prior discussions, you need to browse the archives.  Web
forums do not have this issue.
  3.  When you subscribe to a mailing list, you get lots of emails.  Lots. 
Sorting it out falls on the email client.
  4.  Most email clients fail at at least one critical task, and each one of
them does something differently from all others.  The result is a mixture of
quoting style, top-posting, bottom-posting, HTML, plain text and whatnot.

--
Krzysztof Parzyszek  kparzysz at quicinc.com<mailto:kparzysz at
quicinc.com>   AI tools development

From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org> On Behalf Of Zachary
Turner via llvm-dev
Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 2:44 PM
To: Mehdi AMINI <joker.eph at gmail.com>
Cc: llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
Subject: [EXT] Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for
LLVM's discussions

Discourse archives are not searchable on the web.

Unsurprisingly, this discussion thread is evolving almost exactly like the
Chromium thread where Slack was introduced a few years ago.  Half the people are
concerned about losing the mailing list, missing conversations that don't
occur in their time zone, and fragmentation.  The other half are saying
"it's just like what IRC is today only more modern".

And I think, much like what happened during the Chromium proposal, we should
make it clear that replacing mailing lists is a non-starter and not open for
discussion.  It should be clear that this is basically just a more modern IRC. 
Framed that way, it almost doesn't even seem worth discussing *whether* it
should happen, because I can't think of a good reason for it *not* to. 
Instead, we should just switch to focusing on the how.  Is it Discord,
Discourse, Slack, or something else?

If someone has a concern that is unique to Discord/Discourse/Slack that
doesn't exist in today's IRC world, we can certainly discuss that, but
so far I haven't seen anything along those lines in this thread.

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 11:48 AM Mehdi AMINI via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote:


On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 11:32 AM David Tellenbach via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
 Hi all,

+1 from my side for using "faster" or "more direct"
communication channels such
as Discord (no strong opinion on the choice of any particular tool here) for
informal chats and discussions on a "support level". This is includes
user
questions but also questions that can be easily answered using community
knowledge. I think of things like "How to I build clang for option
abc" or
"How do I access all instructions in a basic block?"

Strong -1 for any attempts to replace the mailing list (but no strong opinion on
providing additional possibilities to interact with it, such as mirrored forums
etc.) as primary and definitive communication channel.

It should be absolutely enough to follow llvm-dev to be completely informed
about any major RFC, discussion or design decisions.

If your concern is to be able to stay informed by email, then subscribing to the
right "category" on Discourse should provide exactly this (everyone
can select their notification preferences on Discourse).
Is there something more you need that I missed?

Best,

--
Mehdi




    David


On 18. Nov 2019, at 08:48, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote:

Hello everyone,

Short version:
I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and
an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
https://llvm.discourse.group/

Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still
very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread
with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have
dedicated feedback channels.

Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to
create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and
Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are
fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't
work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.

Longer version & more details:
During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks expressed
very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount of
friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM.
Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are
unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long
been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at
WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it
means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]

We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the most
promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form
discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse
server. You can find them here:
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
https://llvm.discourse.group/

There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks to
clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse, and
I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and
Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to
these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up.
Some specific things we're already working on:

  *   Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
  *   Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place,
etc.

     *   See the plan here:
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61

  *   Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org<http://forums.llvm.org/>.
  *   Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly
email-focused workflow.

We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try
using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger
barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had serious
infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for
several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based
workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse
long-term instead of the email lists.

I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving me
and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things,
but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in
the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I
really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these
long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT
workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch
of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it
without her help, especially around Discord bots.

-Chandler
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