llvm dev - Nov 2019 - RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

The lists are working well for the people who are already invested in the
community though - as was identified by Chandler they aren't working as
well for new people.

I'm an insanely confident Scotsman with just about zero fear of any/all
social situations, and I've always found this mailing list to be utterly
terrifying (thus I've been a 10 year mostly-lurker).

My fear (unfounded as it probably is) is that I'll make a complete fool out
of myself asking a dumb question / proposing a stupid idea, tarishing what
little reputation I might have had. I know from others I've talked to over
the years this isn't a sentiment that I alone feel!

So +1 from me for anything we can do to help broaden the community.

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 4:03 PM Hans Wennborg via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> Since it's an RFC, I'll comment :-)
>
> I don't have strong opinions about IRC vs Discord vs something else.
>
> But the idea of abandoning the mailing lists is concerning to me. The
> way I see it, the lists are core to the LLVM project, second in
> importance only to the source code repository. Web forums tend to come
> and go, but the lists have been around a long time and seem to be
> working well.
>
> Perhaps we could do other things to make the mailing lists more
> accessible? When I meet university students, they're often familiar
> with how to find our code and build it, but much less aware of the
> mailing lists, and that one can use them to ask questions. Maybe we
> should promote them in README.md, which is probably the first thing
> new users would see these days?
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 8:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > Short version:
> > I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to
IRC)
> and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> > https://llvm.discourse.group/
> >
> > Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up
> and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out
to
> this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both
> services have dedicated feedback channels.
> >
> > Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try
> not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the
> lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the
discussion
> with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse
> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it
isn't lost.
> >
> > Longer version & more details:
> > During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
expressed
> very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount of
> friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to
> LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions
> are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I
> have long been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback
> from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to
> address. Even if it means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
> >
> > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and
> the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
> longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord
> and Discourse server. You can find them here:
> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> > https://llvm.discourse.group/
> >
> > There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great
for
> folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in
> Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both
> Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of
> improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and
we
> can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
> >
> > Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
> > Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place,
> etc.
> >
> > See the plan here:
>
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
> >
> > Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
> > Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
> similarly email-focused workflow.
> >
> >
> > We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to
seriously try
> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have
> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of
> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very
> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously
> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
> >
> > I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for
> giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these
> kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to
> people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a
> lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also
> helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to
> Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this
> message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set
> up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially
around
> Discord bots.
> >
> > -Chandler
> > _______________________________________________
> > LLVM Developers mailing list
> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>

-- 
Neil Henning
Senior Software Engineer Compiler
unity.com
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+1

I was among the participants during WiC together with Meike. My overall 
impression was that there's a lot of LLVM developers out there (or 
people using LLVM) who do not visit or use the mailing list. As a 
result, we probably don't realise how big the group actually is.

I feel that by providing other platforms for communication and knowledge 
exchange we are basically catching up with were our community already is.

-Andrzej

On 18/11/2019 16:11, Neil Henning via llvm-dev wrote:
> The lists are working well for the people who are already invested in 
> the community though - as was identified by Chandler they aren't
working
> as well for new people.
> 
> I'm an insanely confident Scotsman with just about zero fear of any/all
> social situations, and I've always found this mailing list to be
utterly
> terrifying (thus I've been a 10 year mostly-lurker).
> 
> My fear (unfounded as it probably is) is that I'll make a complete fool
> out of myself asking a dumb question / proposing a stupid idea, 
> tarishing what little reputation I might have had. I know from others 
> I've talked to over the years this isn't a sentiment that I alone
feel!
> 
> So +1 from me for anything we can do to help broaden the community.
> 
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 4:03 PM Hans Wennborg via llvm-dev 
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
> 
>     Since it's an RFC, I'll comment :-)
> 
>     I don't have strong opinions about IRC vs Discord vs something
else.
> 
>     But the idea of abandoning the mailing lists is concerning to me. The
>     way I see it, the lists are core to the LLVM project, second in
>     importance only to the source code repository. Web forums tend to come
>     and go, but the lists have been around a long time and seem to be
>     working well.
> 
>     Perhaps we could do other things to make the mailing lists more
>     accessible? When I meet university students, they're often familiar
>     with how to find our code and build it, but much less aware of the
>     mailing lists, and that one can use them to ask questions. Maybe we
>     should promote them in README.md, which is probably the first thing
>     new users would see these days?
> 
>     On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 8:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev
>     <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
>      >
>      > Hello everyone,
>      >
>      > Short version:
>      > I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat
(similar to
>     IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
>      > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>      > https://llvm.discourse.group/
>      >
>      > Please join and use these new services. They are only partially
>     set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or
>     reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things you want
>     to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.
>      >
>      > Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although
>     try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would
>     between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're
>     having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the
>     email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect
and
>     archive everything so it isn't lost.
>      >
>      > Longer version & more details:
>      > During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting,
folks
>     expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a
>     non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out
>     about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and
>     mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult,
>     and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan
>     and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at
>     WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address.
>     Even if it means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>      >
>      > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out
>     there and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and
>     Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both
>     an initial Discord and Discourse server. You can find them here:
>      > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>      > https://llvm.discourse.group/
>      >
>      > There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be
great
>     for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the
>     groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help
>     moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out
>     with a specific set of improvements to these, don't hesitate to
>     reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up. Some specific
>     things we're already working on:
>      >
>      > Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>      > Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one
>     place, etc.
>      >
>      > See the plan here:
>    
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>      >
>      > Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org
<http://forums.llvm.org>.
>      > Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
>     similarly email-focused workflow.
>      >
>      >
>      > We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to
seriously
>     try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is
>     one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more
>     effective, but also have had serious infrastructure challenges over
>     the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email
>     providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows
>     available and I think we should seriously consider moving to
>     Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>      >
>      > I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop
>     for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways
>     around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges
>     this has posed to people less established in the community was a
>     real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I really
>     appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these
>     long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the
>     WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me
>     and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I
>     wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially
around
>     Discord bots.
>      >
>      > -Chandler
>      > _______________________________________________
>      > LLVM Developers mailing list
>      > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>
>      > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>     _______________________________________________
>     LLVM Developers mailing list
>     llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
>     https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Neil Henning
> Senior Software Engineer Compiler
> unity.com <http://unity.com>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>

> My fear (unfounded as it probably is) is that I'll make a complete fool
out of myself asking a dumb question / proposing a stupid idea, tarishing
what little reputation I might have had. I know from others I've talked to
over the years this isn't a sentiment that I alone feel!

How are the new tools going to help this problem?

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 11:11 AM Neil Henning via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> The lists are working well for the people who are already invested in the
> community though - as was identified by Chandler they aren't working as
> well for new people.
>
> I'm an insanely confident Scotsman with just about zero fear of any/all
> social situations, and I've always found this mailing list to be
utterly
> terrifying (thus I've been a 10 year mostly-lurker).
>
> My fear (unfounded as it probably is) is that I'll make a complete fool
> out of myself asking a dumb question / proposing a stupid idea, tarishing
> what little reputation I might have had. I know from others I've talked
to
> over the years this isn't a sentiment that I alone feel!
>
> So +1 from me for anything we can do to help broaden the community.
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 4:03 PM Hans Wennborg via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
>> Since it's an RFC, I'll comment :-)
>>
>> I don't have strong opinions about IRC vs Discord vs something
else.
>>
>> But the idea of abandoning the mailing lists is concerning to me. The
>> way I see it, the lists are core to the LLVM project, second in
>> importance only to the source code repository. Web forums tend to come
>> and go, but the lists have been around a long time and seem to be
>> working well.
>>
>> Perhaps we could do other things to make the mailing lists more
>> accessible? When I meet university students, they're often familiar
>> with how to find our code and build it, but much less aware of the
>> mailing lists, and that one can use them to ask questions. Maybe we
>> should promote them in README.md, which is probably the first thing
>> new users would see these days?
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 8:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev
>> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello everyone,
>> >
>> > Short version:
>> > I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar
to IRC)
>> and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
>> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>> > https://llvm.discourse.group/
>> >
>> > Please join and use these new services. They are only partially
set up
>> and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach
out to
>> this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also,
both
>> services have dedicated feedback channels.
>> >
>> > Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although
try
>> not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between
the
>> lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the
discussion
>> with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case
Discourse
>> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it
isn't lost.
>> >
>> > Longer version & more details:
>> > During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
>> expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a
non-trivial
>> amount of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or
>> contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for
longer-form
>> discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for
>> newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to change in
these
>> areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for
us
>> as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let go of my
precious
>> IRC. ;]
>> >
>> > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there
and
>> the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
>> longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial
Discord
>> and Discourse server. You can find them here:
>> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>> > https://llvm.discourse.group/
>> >
>> > There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be
great for
>> folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in
>> Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on
both
>> Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific
set of
>> improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike
and we
>> can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>> >
>> > Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>> > Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one
place,
>> etc.
>> >
>> > See the plan here:
>>
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>> >
>> > Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
>> > Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
>> similarly email-focused workflow.
>> >
>> >
>> > We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to
seriously try
>> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of
the
>> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also
have
>> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow
of
>> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has
very
>> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should
seriously
>> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>> >
>> > I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop
for
>> giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these
>> kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to
>> people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It
takes a
>> lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also
>> helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks
to
>> Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this
>> message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things
set
>> up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially
around
>> Discord bots.
>> >
>> > -Chandler
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > LLVM Developers mailing list
>> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>> _______________________________________________
>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>>
>
>
> --
> Neil Henning
> Senior Software Engineer Compiler
> unity.com
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
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> On Nov 18, 2019, at 8:11 AM, Neil Henning via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> 
> The lists are working well for the people who are already invested in the
community though - as was identified by Chandler they aren't working as well
for new people.
I don’t know if I would say it already works for those currently involved. The
volume on llvm-dev is very overwhelming for many and if Discourse provides ways
to get notifications about specific topics that you care about, it could greatly
help people navigate the volume.


-Tanya
> 
> I'm an insanely confident Scotsman with just about zero fear of any/all
social situations, and I've always found this mailing list to be utterly
terrifying (thus I've been a 10 year mostly-lurker).
> 
> My fear (unfounded as it probably is) is that I'll make a complete fool
out of myself asking a dumb question / proposing a stupid idea, tarishing what
little reputation I might have had. I know from others I've talked to over
the years this isn't a sentiment that I alone feel!
> 
> So +1 from me for anything we can do to help broaden the community.
> 
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 4:03 PM Hans Wennborg via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
> Since it's an RFC, I'll comment :-)
> 
> I don't have strong opinions about IRC vs Discord vs something else.
> 
> But the idea of abandoning the mailing lists is concerning to me. The
> way I see it, the lists are core to the LLVM project, second in
> importance only to the source code repository. Web forums tend to come
> and go, but the lists have been around a long time and seem to be
> working well.
> 
> Perhaps we could do other things to make the mailing lists more
> accessible? When I meet university students, they're often familiar
> with how to find our code and build it, but much less aware of the
> mailing lists, and that one can use them to ask questions. Maybe we
> should promote them in README.md, which is probably the first thing
> new users would see these days?
> 
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 8:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > Short version:
> > I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to
IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362 <https://discord.gg/xS7Z362>
> > https://llvm.discourse.group/ <https://llvm.discourse.group/>
> >
> > Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up
and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to
this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both
services have dedicated feedback channels.
> >
> > Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try
not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists
and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are
fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't
work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
> >
> > Longer version & more details:
> > During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount
of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to
LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are
unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long
been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at
WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it
means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
> >
> > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and
the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form
discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse
server. You can find them here:
> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362 <https://discord.gg/xS7Z362>
> > https://llvm.discourse.group/ <https://llvm.discourse.group/>
> >
> > There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great
for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in
Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both
Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of
improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can
get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
> >
> > Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
> > Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place,
etc.
> >
> > See the plan here:
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
<https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61>
> >
> > Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org <http://forums.llvm.org/>.
> > Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
similarly email-focused workflow.
> >
> >
> > We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to
seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one
of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also
have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of
spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very
powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously
consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
> >
> > I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for
giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of
things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less
established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up
like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address
these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT
workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch
of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it
without her help, especially around Discord bots.
> >
> > -Chandler
> > _______________________________________________
> > LLVM Developers mailing list
> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
> > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
<https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
<https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev>
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Neil Henning
> Senior Software Engineer Compiler
> unity.com
<http://unity.com/>_______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
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On 11/18/19 8:11 AM, Neil Henning via llvm-dev wrote:
> The lists are working well for the people who are already invested in 
> the community though - as was identified by Chandler they aren't 
> working as well for new people.
>
> I'm an insanely confident Scotsman with just about zero fear of 
> any/all social situations, and I've always found this mailing list to 
> be utterly terrifying (thus I've been a 10 year mostly-lurker).
>
> My fear (unfounded as it probably is) is that I'll make a complete 
> fool out of myself asking a dumb question / proposing a stupid idea, 
> tarishing what little reputation I might have had. I know from others 
> I've talked to over the years this isn't a sentiment that I alone
feel!
I definitely remember this fear from when I was just getting started.  
By now, I've made a fool of myself publicly enough times to not worry 
about it any more, but initially, this was really intimidating.

I do hear a lot of discussion in person and see some email that doesn't 
show up on lists specifically because of the public record aspect.  I 
don't know that the current tools proposal address this, but a 
specifically transitive channel which *isn't* archived might be worth 
thinking about.

>
> So +1 from me for anything we can do to help broaden the community.
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 4:03 PM Hans Wennborg via llvm-dev 
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
>
>     Since it's an RFC, I'll comment :-)
>
>     I don't have strong opinions about IRC vs Discord vs something
else.
>
>     But the idea of abandoning the mailing lists is concerning to me. The
>     way I see it, the lists are core to the LLVM project, second in
>     importance only to the source code repository. Web forums tend to come
>     and go, but the lists have been around a long time and seem to be
>     working well.
>
>     Perhaps we could do other things to make the mailing lists more
>     accessible? When I meet university students, they're often familiar
>     with how to find our code and build it, but much less aware of the
>     mailing lists, and that one can use them to ask questions. Maybe we
>     should promote them in README.md, which is probably the first thing
>     new users would see these days?
>
>     On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 8:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev
>     <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
>     >
>     > Hello everyone,
>     >
>     > Short version:
>     > I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar
>     to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email
>     lists):
>     > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>     > https://llvm.discourse.group/
>     >
>     > Please join and use these new services. They are only partially
>     set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them
>     and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things
>     you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.
>     >
>     > Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions,
>     although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than
>     you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people
>     you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead
>     of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll
>     collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
>     >
>     > Longer version & more details:
>     > During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
>     expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a
>     non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out
>     about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and
>     mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar,
>     difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long
>     been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback
>     from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us as a
>     community to address. Even if it means I have to let go of my
>     precious IRC. ;]
>     >
>     > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out
>     there and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and
>     Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up
>     both an initial Discord and Discourse server. You can find them here:
>     > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>     > https://llvm.discourse.group/
>     >
>     > There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be
great
>     for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the
>     groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help
>     moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out
>     with a specific set of improvements to these, don't hesitate to
>     reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up. Some specific
>     things we're already working on:
>     >
>     > Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>     > Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one
>     place, etc.
>     >
>     > See the plan here:
>    
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>     >
>     > Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org
<http://forums.llvm.org>.
>     > Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
>     similarly email-focused workflow.
>     >
>     >
>     > We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to
>     seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I
>     think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists
>     are more effective, but also have had serious infrastructure
>     challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for
>     several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful
>     email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously
>     consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>     >
>     > I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop
>     for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways
>     around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges
>     this has posed to people less established in the community was a
>     real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I
>     really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address
>     these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for
>     organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this
>     message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these
>     things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her
>     help, especially around Discord bots.
>     >
>     > -Chandler
>     > _______________________________________________
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>
>
> -- 
>
> Neil Henning
> Senior Software Engineer Compiler
> unity.com <http://unity.com>
>
>
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On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 8:23 AM Ryan Taylor via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> > My fear (unfounded as it probably is) is that I'll make a complete
fool out of myself asking a dumb question / proposing a stupid idea, tarishing
what little reputation I might have had. I know from others I've talked to
over the years this isn't a sentiment that I alone feel!
First, I wanted to echo what Ryan and others have mentioned. I've been
subscribed to llvm-dev for ~8 years, and have posted a handful of
times, primarily because of similar fears and not wanting to bother
the whole list for something that is small (or at least might be). I
don't want to add to the flood of email that I myself have no hope of
keeping up with. I used to chat a bit more on IRC, but when I had
questions there would rarely be someone willing to help. Lately I'm
rarely on IRC either.
> How are the new tools going to help this problem?
A real-time communication channel is only as good as the number of
participants. IRC is dying and getting new folks into IRC is not
really going to happen. I personally loved IRC, but I'm just not there
much anymore as most discussions I care about have moved on. Discord
(or other similar alternatives) have channels so I don't have to
follow every topic, just the ones I care about. Simply put, I strongly
support some modern, real-time communication server, whether or not
that's Discord (I understand the issues with ToS that people have, and
while I don't personally care, I sympathize).

Discourse also seems like it would reduce friction for newcomers. I
think most would view it as a pull model rather than a push model, and
so feel significantly more comfortable posting a message or starting a
new topic, as you're not pushing a message into people's inbox. As
others have elaborated on, the friction and investment to post a quick
question as a newcomer is much lower, so it would undoubtedly attract
a larger and more vibrant community.

All said, I'm someone who has worked on LLVM code downstream for 8
years, attended the dev summit, and based most of my PhD work on LLVM,
I never have felt like a member of the community. I think the
directions the project is going re: Github, and potentially
modernizing comms is great and will definitely encourage me and others
like me to participate more.

- stephen