llvm dev - Aug 2019 - Introduction and Question about Docs

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 9:25 PM Michael Spencer via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 12:38 PM via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi everyone. My name is DeForest Richards. I’m the technical writer who
was selected to work on the LLVM project as part of the Google Season of Docs
program. I’ll be helping to restructure the documentation page(s) to make it
easier for new and existing users to navigate the LLVM docs.
>>
>>
>> I’m currently reviewing the existing docs, so you’ll probably see me
posting questions over the next several weeks. That said, I do have a couple of
quick questions that I wanted to ask right now…
>>
>>
>> I noticed that the LLVM Docs currently use Sphinx 1.7.6, which is an
older version. (I believe 2.x is the latest version.) Is this intentional?
Updating to the latest version of Sphinx is probably low on my list of
priorities, but I was just curious if there was a specific reason for keeping
the docs at the older version.
>
>
> There's no specific reason for this.  We setup Sphinx a while ago and
only upgraded once to get markdown support (which is now the preferred format
for new docs).  The only constraint on upgrading to 2.x would be is it available
on our minimum supported platform, or are we willing to have a higher minimum
for generating the docs.
There recently was a disscussion about this in phabricator (i think? i
can't seem to find it right now).
That version is way too new, it's not even in debian sid; enforcing it
would be limiting.
>>
>> Back in 2012, there was a commit that removed the sidebar from the Docs
page. Does anyone know/remember why this was done? I checked the commit message
but it’s fairly short and doesn’t provide much context.
>
>
> Who committed it?
>
> - Michael Spencer
Roman
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 12:36 PM Roman Lebedev <lebedev.ri at gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 9:25 PM Michael Spencer via llvm-dev
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 12:38 PM via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi everyone. My name is DeForest Richards. I’m the technical
writer who
> was selected to work on the LLVM project as part of the Google Season of
> Docs program. I’ll be helping to restructure the documentation page(s) to
> make it easier for new and existing users to navigate the LLVM docs.
> >>
> >>
> >> I’m currently reviewing the existing docs, so you’ll probably see
me
> posting questions over the next several weeks. That said, I do have a
> couple of quick questions that I wanted to ask right now…
> >>
> >>
> >> I noticed that the LLVM Docs currently use Sphinx 1.7.6, which is
an
> older version. (I believe 2.x is the latest version.) Is this intentional?
> Updating to the latest version of Sphinx is probably low on my list of
> priorities, but I was just curious if there was a specific reason for
> keeping the docs at the older version.
> >
> >
> > There's no specific reason for this.  We setup Sphinx a while ago
and
> only upgraded once to get markdown support (which is now the preferred
> format for new docs).  The only constraint on upgrading to 2.x would be is
> it available on our minimum supported platform, or are we willing to have a
> higher minimum for generating the docs.
> There recently was a disscussion about this in phabricator (i think? i
> can't seem to find it right now).
> That version is way too new, it's not even in debian sid; enforcing it
> would be limiting.
>
Thanks Michael and Roman. That makes sense.

>
> >>
> >> Back in 2012, there was a commit that removed the sidebar from the
Docs
> page. Does anyone know/remember why this was done? I checked the commit
> message but it’s fairly short and doesn’t provide much context.
> >
> >
> > Who committed it?
>
Sean Silva's listed as the commit author.

----

I had another question that I was going to start a new thread for, but I'll
just add here instead...

ReleaseNotes.rst file - http://llvm.org/docs/ReleaseNotes.html


I was reviewing the commit history for this file in Github, and it appears
that it's been worked on for quite a while (as in years). Can someone
provide some context as to its purpose?


My guess, based on the commit history, is that it’s a “living” document
that folks contribute to for each upcoming release. Meaning it’s constantly
being updated. Is my understanding correct?


> >
> > - Michael Spencer
> Roman
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > LLVM Developers mailing list
> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
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via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> writes:
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 12:36 PM Roman Lebedev <lebedev.ri at
gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 9:25 PM Michael Spencer via llvm-dev
>> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 12:38 PM via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi everyone. My name is DeForest Richards. I’m the technical
writer who
>> was selected to work on the LLVM project as part of the Google Season
of
>> Docs program. I’ll be helping to restructure the documentation page(s)
to
>> make it easier for new and existing users to navigate the LLVM docs.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I’m currently reviewing the existing docs, so you’ll probably
see me
>> posting questions over the next several weeks. That said, I do have a
>> couple of quick questions that I wanted to ask right now…
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I noticed that the LLVM Docs currently use Sphinx 1.7.6, which
is an
>> older version. (I believe 2.x is the latest version.) Is this
intentional?
>> Updating to the latest version of Sphinx is probably low on my list of
>> priorities, but I was just curious if there was a specific reason for
>> keeping the docs at the older version.
>> >
>> >
>> > There's no specific reason for this.  We setup Sphinx a while
ago and
>> only upgraded once to get markdown support (which is now the preferred
>> format for new docs).  The only constraint on upgrading to 2.x would be
is
>> it available on our minimum supported platform, or are we willing to
have a
>> higher minimum for generating the docs.
>> There recently was a disscussion about this in phabricator (i think? i
>> can't seem to find it right now).
>> That version is way too new, it's not even in debian sid; enforcing
it
>> would be limiting.
>>
>
> Thanks Michael and Roman. That makes sense.
>
>
>>
>> >>
>> >> Back in 2012, there was a commit that removed the sidebar from
the Docs
>> page. Does anyone know/remember why this was done? I checked the commit
>> message but it’s fairly short and doesn’t provide much context.
>> >
>> >
>> > Who committed it?
>>
>
> Sean Silva's listed as the commit author.
>
> ----
>
> I had another question that I was going to start a new thread for, but
I'll
> just add here instead...
>
> ReleaseNotes.rst file - http://llvm.org/docs/ReleaseNotes.html
>
>
> I was reviewing the commit history for this file in Github, and it appears
> that it's been worked on for quite a while (as in years). Can someone
> provide some context as to its purpose?
>
> My guess, based on the commit history, is that it’s a “living” document
> that folks contribute to for each upcoming release. Meaning it’s constantly
> being updated. Is my understanding correct?
Yes, people add to this when they add changes that should be called out
during the next release. Each time we cut a branch for a release we
"reset" the version of this document on trunk to an empty one.
>> >
>> > - Michael Spencer
>> Roman
>>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > LLVM Developers mailing list
>> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev

I don't think our current situation for Markdown versus RST is good
unfortunately. There are issues with the inter-file links between RST and
Markdown documents, so we're actually in the process of changing the new
markdown docs for some of the LLVM binary tools to RST in the CommandGuide
directory at least. Some related reviews:

https://reviews.llvm.org/D66305 - switching to RST from MD for new docs
https://reviews.llvm.org/D63292 - attempted workaround for old recommonmark
versions
https://reviews.llvm.org/D63211 - local docs build fix attempt (this thread
contains a lot of background on what the problem is)

And mailing list threads:

https://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2018-March/122234.html - Original
proposal to add Markdown support
http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2019-June/133038.html - My
analysis of the problems with different recommonmark and Sphinx versions,
which might indicate problems with updating. Follow-up comments point out
that only recommonmark 0.4.0 is available on Ubuntu repos, so people didn't
want to update the build bots via pip to get a working version.

To be clear, I have no issues with us using Markdown, or updating our
Sphinx etc versions, if they work.

James


On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 19:37, Roman Lebedev via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 9:25 PM Michael Spencer via llvm-dev
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 12:38 PM via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi everyone. My name is DeForest Richards. I’m the technical
writer who
> was selected to work on the LLVM project as part of the Google Season of
> Docs program. I’ll be helping to restructure the documentation page(s) to
> make it easier for new and existing users to navigate the LLVM docs.
> >>
> >>
> >> I’m currently reviewing the existing docs, so you’ll probably see
me
> posting questions over the next several weeks. That said, I do have a
> couple of quick questions that I wanted to ask right now…
> >>
> >>
> >> I noticed that the LLVM Docs currently use Sphinx 1.7.6, which is
an
> older version. (I believe 2.x is the latest version.) Is this intentional?
> Updating to the latest version of Sphinx is probably low on my list of
> priorities, but I was just curious if there was a specific reason for
> keeping the docs at the older version.
> >
> >
> > There's no specific reason for this.  We setup Sphinx a while ago
and
> only upgraded once to get markdown support (which is now the preferred
> format for new docs).  The only constraint on upgrading to 2.x would be is
> it available on our minimum supported platform, or are we willing to have a
> higher minimum for generating the docs.
> There recently was a disscussion about this in phabricator (i think? i
> can't seem to find it right now).
> That version is way too new, it's not even in debian sid; enforcing it
> would be limiting.
>
> >>
> >> Back in 2012, there was a commit that removed the sidebar from the
Docs
> page. Does anyone know/remember why this was done? I checked the commit
> message but it’s fairly short and doesn’t provide much context.
> >
> >
> > Who committed it?
> >
> > - Michael Spencer
> Roman
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > LLVM Developers mailing list
> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
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Appreciate the insight. As part of my project, I'd like to figure out a way
to implement a tagging scheme for the docs as I'm sure many topics will
fall under multiple categories. The goal would be to provide a way for
users to filter topics by category, topic/feature, etc.

Based on what you and others have said, I'll need to take into
consideration that some docs are written in markdown, others in rst.

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 5:55 AM James Henderson <
jh7370.2008 at my.bristol.ac.uk> wrote:
> I don't think our current situation for Markdown versus RST is good
> unfortunately. There are issues with the inter-file links between RST and
> Markdown documents, so we're actually in the process of changing the
new
> markdown docs for some of the LLVM binary tools to RST in the CommandGuide
> directory at least. Some related reviews:
>
> https://reviews.llvm.org/D66305 - switching to RST from MD for new docs
> https://reviews.llvm.org/D63292 - attempted workaround for old
> recommonmark versions
> https://reviews.llvm.org/D63211 - local docs build fix attempt (this
> thread contains a lot of background on what the problem is)
>
> And mailing list threads:
>
> https://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2018-March/122234.html -
> Original proposal to add Markdown support
> http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2019-June/133038.html - My
> analysis of the problems with different recommonmark and Sphinx versions,
> which might indicate problems with updating. Follow-up comments point out
> that only recommonmark 0.4.0 is available on Ubuntu repos, so people
didn't
> want to update the build bots via pip to get a working version.
>
> To be clear, I have no issues with us using Markdown, or updating our
> Sphinx etc versions, if they work.
>
> James
>
>
> On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 19:37, Roman Lebedev via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 9:25 PM Michael Spencer via llvm-dev
>> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 12:38 PM via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi everyone. My name is DeForest Richards. I’m the technical
writer
>> who was selected to work on the LLVM project as part of the Google
Season
>> of Docs program. I’ll be helping to restructure the documentation
page(s)
>> to make it easier for new and existing users to navigate the LLVM docs.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I’m currently reviewing the existing docs, so you’ll probably
see me
>> posting questions over the next several weeks. That said, I do have a
>> couple of quick questions that I wanted to ask right now…
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I noticed that the LLVM Docs currently use Sphinx 1.7.6, which
is an
>> older version. (I believe 2.x is the latest version.) Is this
intentional?
>> Updating to the latest version of Sphinx is probably low on my list of
>> priorities, but I was just curious if there was a specific reason for
>> keeping the docs at the older version.
>> >
>> >
>> > There's no specific reason for this.  We setup Sphinx a while
ago and
>> only upgraded once to get markdown support (which is now the preferred
>> format for new docs).  The only constraint on upgrading to 2.x would be
is
>> it available on our minimum supported platform, or are we willing to
have a
>> higher minimum for generating the docs.
>> There recently was a disscussion about this in phabricator (i think? i
>> can't seem to find it right now).
>> That version is way too new, it's not even in debian sid; enforcing
it
>> would be limiting.
>>
>> >>
>> >> Back in 2012, there was a commit that removed the sidebar from
the
>> Docs page. Does anyone know/remember why this was done? I checked the
>> commit message but it’s fairly short and doesn’t provide much context.
>> >
>> >
>> > Who committed it?
>> >
>> > - Michael Spencer
>> Roman
>>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > LLVM Developers mailing list
>> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>> _______________________________________________
>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>>
>
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On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 11:54 AM via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 12:36 PM Roman Lebedev <lebedev.ri at
gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 9:25 PM Michael Spencer via llvm-dev
>> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 12:38 PM via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi everyone. My name is DeForest Richards. I’m the technical
writer
>> who was selected to work on the LLVM project as part of the Google
Season
>> of Docs program. I’ll be helping to restructure the documentation
page(s)
>> to make it easier for new and existing users to navigate the LLVM docs.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I’m currently reviewing the existing docs, so you’ll probably
see me
>> posting questions over the next several weeks. That said, I do have a
>> couple of quick questions that I wanted to ask right now…
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I noticed that the LLVM Docs currently use Sphinx 1.7.6, which
is an
>> older version. (I believe 2.x is the latest version.) Is this
intentional?
>> Updating to the latest version of Sphinx is probably low on my list of
>> priorities, but I was just curious if there was a specific reason for
>> keeping the docs at the older version.
>> >
>> >
>> > There's no specific reason for this.  We setup Sphinx a while
ago and
>> only upgraded once to get markdown support (which is now the preferred
>> format for new docs).  The only constraint on upgrading to 2.x would be
is
>> it available on our minimum supported platform, or are we willing to
have a
>> higher minimum for generating the docs.
>> There recently was a disscussion about this in phabricator (i think? i
>> can't seem to find it right now).
>> That version is way too new, it's not even in debian sid; enforcing
it
>> would be limiting.
>>
>
> Thanks Michael and Roman. That makes sense.
>
>
>>
>> >>
>> >> Back in 2012, there was a commit that removed the sidebar from
the
>> Docs page. Does anyone know/remember why this was done? I checked the
>> commit message but it’s fairly short and doesn’t provide much context.
>> >
>> >
>> > Who committed it?
>>
>
> Sean Silva's listed as the commit author.
>

I went back through my mail and found that in r170790 we observed that the
sidebar resulted in a redundant table of contents (once from the main table
of contents, one in the sidebar). So we removed the sidebar in r170803.

I couldn't find online email archives going back that far, so I've
attached
a PDF printout of the thread.

This issue may have been exacerbated by our stylesheet/theme making things
look ugly.

-- Sean Silva

>
> ----
>
> I had another question that I was going to start a new thread for, but
> I'll just add here instead...
>
> ReleaseNotes.rst file - http://llvm.org/docs/ReleaseNotes.html
>
>
> I was reviewing the commit history for this file in Github, and it appears
> that it's been worked on for quite a while (as in years). Can someone
> provide some context as to its purpose?
>
>
> My guess, based on the commit history, is that it’s a “living” document
> that folks contribute to for each upcoming release. Meaning it’s constantly
> being updated. Is my understanding correct?
>
>
>
>> >
>> > - Michael Spencer
>> Roman
>>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > LLVM Developers mailing list
>> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
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