llvm dev - Oct 2015 - RFC: Second draft of an LLVM Community Code of Conduct

On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Pasi Parviainen via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> On 14.10.2015 23:36, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev wrote:
>
>> * **Be welcoming.** We strive to be a community that welcomes and
supports
>>    people of all backgrounds and identities. This includes, but is not
>> limited
>>    to members of any race, ethnicity, culture, national origin, colour,
>>    immigration status, social and economic class, educational level,
sex,
>> sexual
>>    orientation, gender identity and expression, age, size, family
status,
>>    political belief, religion or lack thereof, and mental and physical
>> ability.
>>
>>
> ...
>
> * **Be careful in the words that you choose.** We are a community of
>>    professionals, and we conduct ourselves professionally. Be kind to
>> others. Do
>>
>
> What kind of professionals? Professional boxers perhaps? Who do have a
> habit to get under the skin of the opponent with a insults before the
match.
>
> Rarely people in their teens, or early twenties would be considered as
> professional on any area of expertise. So by claiming that community
> consist of professionals, aren't you already discriminating against
> individuals who do not have any professional (what ever it may be) interest
> on the project?

I agree the particular phrasing here (at least to me) reads as disparaging
to people who are not employed to work on LLVM.

As a side note: this whole bullet point is sort of weird. It is titled "Be
careful in the words that you choose." which makes it sound like it is
about incidental oversights, but everything after the second sentence seems
pretty unrelated. E.g. one of the examples is "Posting (or threatening to
post) other people's personally identifying information
("doxing")." - how
does that fall under anything involving "be careful"? Similarly for
"Unwelcome
sexual attention." in what way does that involve "the words that you
choose"; is there a choice of words that makes "Unwelcome sexual
attention." any more or less acceptable? Same is true for " Repeated
harassment of others.".

Was there a typo and "Be kind to others" should start a new top-level
bullet point? `* **Be kind to others.** ...`

-- Sean Silva

>
>    not insult or put down other participants. Harassment and other
>> exclusionary
>>    behavior aren't acceptable. This includes, but is not limited
to:
>>
>>    * Violent threats or language directed against another person.
>>    * Discriminatory jokes and language.
>>    * Posting sexually explicit or violent material.
>>    * Posting (or threatening to post) other people's personally
>> identifying
>>      information ("doxing").
>>    * Personal insults, especially those using racist or sexist terms.
>>    * Unwelcome sexual attention.
>>    * Advocating for, or encouraging, any of the above behavior.
>>    * Repeated harassment of others. In general, if someone asks you to
>> stop,
>>      then stop.
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/attachments/20151019/65976f8c/attachment.html>

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 8:23 PM Sean Silva <chisophugis at gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Pasi Parviainen via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
>> On 14.10.2015 23:36, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev wrote:
>>
>>> * **Be welcoming.** We strive to be a community that welcomes and
>>> supports
>>>    people of all backgrounds and identities. This includes, but is
not
>>> limited
>>>    to members of any race, ethnicity, culture, national origin,
colour,
>>>    immigration status, social and economic class, educational
level, sex,
>>> sexual
>>>    orientation, gender identity and expression, age, size, family
status,
>>>    political belief, religion or lack thereof, and mental and
physical
>>> ability.
>>>
>>>
>> ...
>>
>> * **Be careful in the words that you choose.** We are a community of
>>>    professionals, and we conduct ourselves professionally. Be kind
to
>>> others. Do
>>>
>>
>> What kind of professionals? Professional boxers perhaps? Who do have a
>> habit to get under the skin of the opponent with a insults before the
match.
>>
>> Rarely people in their teens, or early twenties would be considered as
>> professional on any area of expertise. So by claiming that community
>> consist of professionals, aren't you already discriminating against
>> individuals who do not have any professional (what ever it may be)
interest
>> on the project?
>
>
> I agree the particular phrasing here (at least to me) reads as disparaging
> to people who are not employed to work on LLVM.
>
This phrasing is clearly too confusing to too many readers at this point.
Its value was marginal anyways, and so I've just removed it.

>
> As a side note: this whole bullet point is sort of weird. It is titled
"Be
> careful in the words that you choose." which makes it sound like it is
> about incidental oversights, but everything after the second sentence seems
> pretty unrelated. E.g. one of the examples is "Posting (or threatening
to
> post) other people's personally identifying information
("doxing")." -
> how does that fall under anything involving "be careful"?
Similarly for "Unwelcome
> sexual attention." in what way does that involve "the words that
you
> choose"; is there a choice of words that makes "Unwelcome sexual
> attention." any more or less acceptable?
>
It's not about it being more or less acceptable, it is that these
consequences might not be intended. The most common cases here are around
"Discriminatory jokes and language." but several of the other
categories
could be unintended as well.

These can usually be solved easily with a quick note to someone saying
"Hey, you may not have intended that joke to be interpreted as ____, but it
is, so you should probably not make it here." No big deal. If the person
doesn't feel comfortable doing that, they can ask the advisory committee to
do it for them *and that will be the extent of what happens*. A quick note
to the person that "Hey, you may not have realized it, but ...".

It is (IMO) still important for it to be here, because once this is
explained, *repeating* it gets worse and worse. And there are cases which
are unambiguous and clearly unacceptable even once -- physical threats for
example.

We could separate the two cases, but it isn't clear that this is a useful
distinction. I think the primary problem is something you point out below...

Was there a typo and "Be kind to others" should start a new
top-level
> bullet point? `* **Be kind to others.** ...`
>
The original wording definitely has it structured as I did in my document.
But I really like this suggestion. There are really two things here: be
careful about the words you choose (because they may have unintended
consequences otherwise) *and* to be kind to others.

So in addition to deleting the sentences that referenced
"professionals", I
have merged the two halves into a single highlighted header. I hope that
helps, but please let me know.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/attachments/20151020/05ffeba6/attachment.html>

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 2:28 AM, Chandler Carruth <chandlerc at gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 8:23 PM Sean Silva <chisophugis at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Pasi Parviainen via llvm-dev <
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 14.10.2015 23:36, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev wrote:
>>>
>>>> * **Be welcoming.** We strive to be a community that welcomes
and
>>>> supports
>>>>    people of all backgrounds and identities. This includes, but
is not
>>>> limited
>>>>    to members of any race, ethnicity, culture, national origin,
colour,
>>>>    immigration status, social and economic class, educational
level,
>>>> sex,
>>>> sexual
>>>>    orientation, gender identity and expression, age, size,
family
>>>> status,
>>>>    political belief, religion or lack thereof, and mental and
physical
>>>> ability.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> * **Be careful in the words that you choose.** We are a community
of
>>>>    professionals, and we conduct ourselves professionally. Be
kind to
>>>> others. Do
>>>>
>>>
>>> What kind of professionals? Professional boxers perhaps? Who do
have a
>>> habit to get under the skin of the opponent with a insults before
the match.
>>>
>>> Rarely people in their teens, or early twenties would be considered
as
>>> professional on any area of expertise. So by claiming that
community
>>> consist of professionals, aren't you already discriminating
against
>>> individuals who do not have any professional (what ever it may be)
interest
>>> on the project?
>>
>>
>> I agree the particular phrasing here (at least to me) reads as
>> disparaging to people who are not employed to work on LLVM.
>>
>
> This phrasing is clearly too confusing to too many readers at this point.
> Its value was marginal anyways, and so I've just removed it.
>
>
>>
>> As a side note: this whole bullet point is sort of weird. It is titled
"Be
>> careful in the words that you choose." which makes it sound like
it is
>> about incidental oversights, but everything after the second sentence
seems
>> pretty unrelated. E.g. one of the examples is "Posting (or
threatening
>> to post) other people's personally identifying information
("doxing")."
>> - how does that fall under anything involving "be careful"?
Similarly for "Unwelcome
>> sexual attention." in what way does that involve "the words
that you
>> choose"; is there a choice of words that makes "Unwelcome
sexual
>> attention." any more or less acceptable?
>>
>
> It's not about it being more or less acceptable, it is that these
> consequences might not be intended. The most common cases here are around
> "Discriminatory jokes and language." but several of the other
categories
> could be unintended as well.
>
> These can usually be solved easily with a quick note to someone saying
> "Hey, you may not have intended that joke to be interpreted as ____,
but it
> is, so you should probably not make it here." No big deal. If the
person
> doesn't feel comfortable doing that, they can ask the advisory
committee to
> do it for them *and that will be the extent of what happens*. A quick note
> to the person that "Hey, you may not have realized it, but ...".
>
> It is (IMO) still important for it to be here, because once this is
> explained, *repeating* it gets worse and worse. And there are cases which
> are unambiguous and clearly unacceptable even once -- physical threats for
> example.
>
> We could separate the two cases, but it isn't clear that this is a
useful
> distinction. I think the primary problem is something you point out
below...
>
I think we're in agreement here. In the "this whole bullet point is
sort of
weird" paragraph I wasn't suggesting changing the content, just
reorganizing/rewording to make it a bit more coherent (which is what you
did, thanks!).

-- Sean Silva

>
> Was there a typo and "Be kind to others" should start a new
top-level
>> bullet point? `* **Be kind to others.** ...`
>>
>
> The original wording definitely has it structured as I did in my document.
> But I really like this suggestion. There are really two things here: be
> careful about the words you choose (because they may have unintended
> consequences otherwise) *and* to be kind to others.
>
> So in addition to deleting the sentences that referenced
"professionals",
> I have merged the two halves into a single highlighted header. I hope that
> helps, but please let me know.
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/attachments/20151020/68a502be/attachment.html>