llvm dev - Oct 2015 - RFC: Introducing an LLVM Community Code of Conduct

Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev wrote:
> However, it is incredibly
> important to not expect or demand that a person *you have made feel
> unsafe* take the time to explain why.
I feel what you have written here to be offensive to the highest degree,
and your words make me feel unsafe when contemplating their effect on my
prospects for future interaction with this community.

On 15 October 2015 at 09:35, Bill Kelly via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev wrote:
>> However, it is incredibly
>> important to not expect or demand that a person *you have made feel
>> unsafe* take the time to explain why.
>
> I feel what you have written here to be offensive to the highest degree,
> and your words make me feel unsafe when contemplating their effect on my
> prospects for future interaction with this community.
Bill,

What Chandler is saying here is simply that: "people that have just
been offended, rightly or wrongly, are understandably emotionally
unstable". The hint is in the "you have *just* made". The most
effective way of calming someone down is to show your fault first, so
they can see that you're not attacking them, nor that you think only
them are at fault, the two most common reasons why people react
emotionally.

I don't think that he's saying that that person will *never* have to
explain, or that at least someone else could not explain. Nor he's
saying, IIUC, that this is an excuse for unjustly mistreating the
offender. We don't want excuses either way. We want resolve.

I also felt that the wording reflected that, and why I raised the
issue in the first place. But I never thought Chandler or Tanya have
ever *meant* that, only that careful wording is in order to make sure
it never *will*.

cheers,
-renato

Renato,

Renato Golin wrote:
> On 15 October 2015 at 09:35, Bill Kelly via llvm-dev
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>> Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev wrote:
>>> However, it is incredibly
>>> important to not expect or demand that a person *you have made feel
>>> unsafe* take the time to explain why.
>>
>> I feel what you have written here to be offensive to the highest
degree,
>> and your words make me feel unsafe when contemplating their effect on
my
>> prospects for future interaction with this community.
> 
> Bill,
> 
> What Chandler is saying here is simply that: "people that have just
> been offended, rightly or wrongly, are understandably emotionally
> unstable".
I've indeed no argument with how you've phrased that idea.

The motivation for responding as I did above was two-fold.  First, the idea
to which I was responding--as phrased--felt like a Kafka trap:

  YOU have transgressed. WE don't have to tell you why.

  The accusation is the evidence.

  etc.

Second, I wondered if adopting the language of 'offensive' and
'unsafe'
might help illustrate the point that anyone can claim to be triggered by
something.

(It felt very strange to speak in that manner, as I don't consider my
personal sense of being offended to constitute a valid counter argument.)

> I don't think that he's saying that that person will *never* have
to
> explain, or that at least someone else could not explain. Nor he's
> saying, IIUC, that this is an excuse for unjustly mistreating the
> offender. We don't want excuses either way. We want resolve.
> 
> I also felt that the wording reflected that, and why I raised the
> issue in the first place. But I never thought Chandler or Tanya have
> ever *meant* that, only that careful wording is in order to make sure
> it never *will*.
Definitely agreed on the latter point that careful wording is needed.

I've no reason to doubt the sincerity of Chandler or Tanya.

My concern is rather that however well-intentioned, safe space policies
are routinely being weaponized to censor and punish even rather ordinary
speech.

(I am not politically aligned with the following website, but I'm very
much in sync with this article, which enumerates several such excesses:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/
)


In any case, I suspect that I am by now probably belaboring the point.

But I appreciate having had the opportunity to present my concerns.


Regards,

Bill