llvm dev - Oct 2015 - RFC: Second draft of an LLVM Community Code of Conduct

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 1:50 PM Rafael Espíndola <rafael.espindola at
gmail.com>
wrote:
> > - Is this trying to change how the community behaves? I think the
> resounding
> > answer is no, this is very much meant to formalize the existing
extremely
> > polite and respectful behavior that the LLVM community has had for
many
> > years.
>
> This is crucial IMHO as I am very happy with the current community.
> Can it be included in the code of conduct itself?

I don't think it makes sense for a document to say directly that it
isn't
trying to change anything. Once it exists, there is no change to speak of?

> It is not clear from
> the current wording.
>
Hrm, I'm not sure how to make it more clear. I think the best way is to get
the wording to align with the general expectations of the community. Do you
have specific things that would help there? Here is my best idea:

It already states "We want to ensure that the LLVM community, while large
and diverse, remains welcoming and respectful to all participants." which
is trying to get at what you are saying Rafael with the "remains". But
I
could imagine rewording it to make this more obvious like so:

"The LLVM community has always worked to be a welcoming and respectful
community, and we want to ensure that doesn't change as we grow larger and
more diverse."

Better word smithing of this would be very welcome!
-Chandler


>
> Cheers,
> Rafael
>
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On 10/14/2015 01:57 PM, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev
wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 1:50 PM Rafael Espíndola 
> <rafael.espindola at gmail.com <mailto:rafael.espindola at
gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     > - Is this trying to change how the community behaves? I think
>     the resounding
>     > answer is no, this is very much meant to formalize the existing
>     extremely
>     > polite and respectful behavior that the LLVM community has had
>     for many
>     > years.
>
>     This is crucial IMHO as I am very happy with the current community.
>     Can it be included in the code of conduct itself?
>
>
> I don't think it makes sense for a document to say directly that it 
> isn't trying to change anything. Once it exists, there is no change to 
> speak of?
>
>     It is not clear from
>     the current wording.
>
>
> Hrm, I'm not sure how to make it more clear. I think the best way is 
> to get the wording to align with the general expectations of the 
> community. Do you have specific things that would help there? Here is 
> my best idea:
>
> It already states "We want to ensure that the LLVM community, while 
> large and diverse, remains welcoming and respectful to all 
> participants." which is trying to get at what you are saying Rafael 
> with the "remains". But I could imagine rewording it to make this
more
> obvious like so:
>
> "The LLVM community has always worked to be a welcoming and respectful
> community, and we want to ensure that doesn't change as we grow larger 
> and more diverse."
>
> Better word smithing of this would be very welcome!
> -Chandler
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org 
> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
Personally, I like both the spirit and wording of the proposed change.

Philip

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On 14 October 2015 at 22:03, Philip Reames via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> "The LLVM community has always worked to be a welcoming and respectful
> community, and we want to ensure that doesn't change as we grow larger
and
> more diverse."
>
> Better word smithing of this would be very welcome!
> -Chandler
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
> Personally, I like both the spirit and wording of the proposed change.
Me too. Short, but eloquent.

+1

> "The LLVM community has always worked to be a welcoming and respectful
community, and we want to ensure that doesn't change as we grow larger and
more diverse."
> Better word smithing of this would be very welcome!
I like it as presented. If we feel it needs to be more clear, something
like "The LLVM community has always strived to be welcoming and respectful
to everyone; we'd like to ensure it stays this way even as we continue to
grow and evolve," may be better. But, I feel that the same message would be
conveyed either way.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 2:03 PM, Philip Reames via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
>
> On 10/14/2015 01:57 PM, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev wrote:
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 1:50 PM Rafael Espíndola <
> rafael.espindola at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > - Is this trying to change how the community behaves? I think the
>> resounding
>> > answer is no, this is very much meant to formalize the existing
>> extremely
>> > polite and respectful behavior that the LLVM community has had for
many
>> > years.
>>
>> This is crucial IMHO as I am very happy with the current community.
>> Can it be included in the code of conduct itself?
>
>
> I don't think it makes sense for a document to say directly that it
isn't
> trying to change anything. Once it exists, there is no change to speak of?
>
>
>> It is not clear from
>> the current wording.
>>
>
> Hrm, I'm not sure how to make it more clear. I think the best way is to
> get the wording to align with the general expectations of the community. Do
> you have specific things that would help there? Here is my best idea:
>
> It already states "We want to ensure that the LLVM community, while
large
> and diverse, remains welcoming and respectful to all participants."
which
> is trying to get at what you are saying Rafael with the
"remains". But I
> could imagine rewording it to make this more obvious like so:
>
> "The LLVM community has always worked to be a welcoming and respectful
> community, and we want to ensure that doesn't change as we grow larger
and
> more diverse."
>
> Better word smithing of this would be very welcome!
> -Chandler
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
> Personally, I like both the spirit and wording of the proposed change.
>
> Philip
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
>
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> I don't think it makes sense for a document to say directly that it
isn't
> trying to change anything. Once it exists, there is no change to speak of?
A large part of our interaction happens online. Saying that it is
codifying current behaviour makes list/log archive archeology a
reasonable way to see what is normal for cases where the document is
not clear.
> Hrm, I'm not sure how to make it more clear. I think the best way is to
get
> the wording to align with the general expectations of the community. Do you
> have specific things that would help there? Here is my best idea:
>
> It already states "We want to ensure that the LLVM community, while
large
> and diverse, remains welcoming and respectful to all participants."
which is
> trying to get at what you are saying Rafael with the "remains".
But I could
> imagine rewording it to make this more obvious like so:
>
> "The LLVM community has always worked to be a welcoming and respectful
> community, and we want to ensure that doesn't change as we grow larger
and
> more diverse."
I think this is a good change in wording and pretty much covers one
direction: We want to remain welcoming to people.

The other direction is not so clear and I think it is important too as
we have what looks to me a pretty good balance. I really don't want
people to have to think twice about using nicks like katana or having
alcohol mentioned. I don't think it is feasible to write rules for it
all. Saying that we like the current balance and that it is "case law"
(but circumstances have to be considered) is probably the best that
can be done.

Cheers,
Rafael