Michael S. Tsirkin
2013-Jun-06 09:55 UTC
[PATCH] virtio-net: put virtio net header inline with data
For small packets we can simplify xmit processing by linearizing buffers
with the header: most packets seem to have enough head room we can use
for this purpose.
Since some older hypervisors (e.g. qemu before version 1.5)
required that header is the first s/g element,
we need a feature bit for this.
Signed-off-by: Michael S. Tsirkin <mst at redhat.com>
---
This is a repost of my old patch, rebased to latest kernel.
Before:
Thu Jun 6 05:24:59 EDT 2013
TCP REQUEST/RESPONSE TEST from 0.0.0.0 (0.0.0.0) port 0 AF_INET to
11.0.0.4 (11.0.0.4) port 0 AF_INET : demo
Local /Remote
Socket Size Request Resp. Elapsed Trans.
Send Recv Size Size Time Rate
bytes Bytes bytes bytes secs. per sec
16384 87380 1 1 10.00 12931.13
After:
TCP REQUEST/RESPONSE TEST from 0.0.0.0 (0.0.0.0) port 0 AF_INET to
11.0.0.4 (11.0.0.4) port 0 AF_INET : demo
Local /Remote
Socket Size Request Resp. Elapsed Trans.
Send Recv Size Size Time Rate
bytes Bytes bytes bytes secs. per sec
16384 87380 1 1 10.00 14151.12
drivers/net/virtio_net.c | 42 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++--------
include/uapi/linux/virtio_net.h | 6 +++++-
2 files changed, 39 insertions(+), 9 deletions(-)
diff --git a/drivers/net/virtio_net.c b/drivers/net/virtio_net.c
index c9e0038..d35a097 100644
--- a/drivers/net/virtio_net.c
+++ b/drivers/net/virtio_net.c
@@ -106,6 +106,9 @@ struct virtnet_info {
/* Has control virtqueue */
bool has_cvq;
+ /* Host can handle any s/g split between our header and packet data */
+ bool any_header_sg;
+
/* enable config space updates */
bool config_enable;
@@ -668,12 +671,28 @@ static void free_old_xmit_skbs(struct send_queue *sq)
static int xmit_skb(struct send_queue *sq, struct sk_buff *skb)
{
- struct skb_vnet_hdr *hdr = skb_vnet_hdr(skb);
+ struct skb_vnet_hdr *hdr;
const unsigned char *dest = ((struct ethhdr *)skb->data)->h_dest;
struct virtnet_info *vi = sq->vq->vdev->priv;
unsigned num_sg;
+ unsigned hdr_len;
+ bool can_push;
pr_debug("%s: xmit %p %pM\n", vi->dev->name, skb, dest);
+ if (vi->mergeable_rx_bufs)
+ hdr_len = sizeof hdr->mhdr;
+ else
+ hdr_len = sizeof hdr->hdr;
+
+ can_push = vi->any_header_sg &&
+ !((unsigned long)skb->data & (__alignof__(*hdr) - 1)) &&
+ !skb_header_cloned(skb) && skb_headroom(skb) >= hdr_len;
+ /* Even if we can, don't push here yet as this would skew
+ * csum_start offset below. */
+ if (can_push)
+ hdr = (struct skb_vnet_hdr *)(skb->data - hdr_len);
+ else
+ hdr = skb_vnet_hdr(skb);
if (skb->ip_summed == CHECKSUM_PARTIAL) {
hdr->hdr.flags = VIRTIO_NET_HDR_F_NEEDS_CSUM;
@@ -702,15 +721,18 @@ static int xmit_skb(struct send_queue *sq, struct sk_buff
*skb)
hdr->hdr.gso_size = hdr->hdr.hdr_len = 0;
}
- hdr->mhdr.num_buffers = 0;
-
- /* Encode metadata header at front. */
if (vi->mergeable_rx_bufs)
- sg_set_buf(sq->sg, &hdr->mhdr, sizeof hdr->mhdr);
- else
- sg_set_buf(sq->sg, &hdr->hdr, sizeof hdr->hdr);
+ hdr->mhdr.num_buffers = 0;
- num_sg = skb_to_sgvec(skb, sq->sg + 1, 0, skb->len) + 1;
+ if (can_push) {
+ __skb_push(skb, hdr_len);
+ num_sg = skb_to_sgvec(skb, sq->sg, 0, skb->len);
+ /* Pull header back to avoid skew in tx bytes calculations. */
+ __skb_pull(skb, hdr_len);
+ } else {
+ sg_set_buf(sq->sg, hdr, hdr_len);
+ num_sg = skb_to_sgvec(skb, sq->sg + 1, 0, skb->len) + 1;
+ }
return virtqueue_add_outbuf(sq->vq, sq->sg, num_sg, skb, GFP_ATOMIC);
}
@@ -1554,6 +1576,9 @@ static int virtnet_probe(struct virtio_device *vdev)
if (virtio_has_feature(vdev, VIRTIO_NET_F_MRG_RXBUF))
vi->mergeable_rx_bufs = true;
+ if (virtio_has_feature(vdev, VIRTIO_NET_F_ANY_HEADER_SG))
+ vi->any_header_sg = true;
+
if (virtio_has_feature(vdev, VIRTIO_NET_F_CTRL_VQ))
vi->has_cvq = true;
@@ -1729,6 +1754,7 @@ static unsigned int features[] = {
VIRTIO_NET_F_CTRL_RX, VIRTIO_NET_F_CTRL_VLAN,
VIRTIO_NET_F_GUEST_ANNOUNCE, VIRTIO_NET_F_MQ,
VIRTIO_NET_F_CTRL_MAC_ADDR,
+ VIRTIO_NET_F_ANY_HEADER_SG,
};
static struct virtio_driver virtio_net_driver = {
diff --git a/include/uapi/linux/virtio_net.h b/include/uapi/linux/virtio_net.h
index c520203..9c98b7d 100644
--- a/include/uapi/linux/virtio_net.h
+++ b/include/uapi/linux/virtio_net.h
@@ -55,6 +55,8 @@
* Steering */
#define VIRTIO_NET_F_CTRL_MAC_ADDR 23 /* Set MAC address */
+#define VIRTIO_NET_F_ANY_HEADER_SG 25 /* Host can handle any header s/g */
+
#define VIRTIO_NET_S_LINK_UP 1 /* Link is up */
#define VIRTIO_NET_S_ANNOUNCE 2 /* Announcement is needed */
@@ -70,7 +72,9 @@ struct virtio_net_config {
__u16 max_virtqueue_pairs;
} __attribute__((packed));
-/* This is the first element of the scatter-gather list. If you don't
+/* This header comes first in the scatter-gather list.
+ * If VIRTIO_NET_F_ANY_HEADER_SG is not negotiated, it must
+ * be the first element of the scatter-gather list. If you don't
* specify GSO or CSUM features, you can simply ignore the header. */
struct virtio_net_hdr {
#define VIRTIO_NET_HDR_F_NEEDS_CSUM 1 // Use csum_start, csum_offset
--
MST
Rusty Russell
2013-Jun-07 02:12 UTC
[PATCH] virtio-net: put virtio net header inline with data
"Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst at redhat.com> writes:> For small packets we can simplify xmit processing by linearizing buffers > with the header: most packets seem to have enough head room we can use > for this purpose. > > Since some older hypervisors (e.g. qemu before version 1.5) > required that header is the first s/g element, > we need a feature bit for this.OK, we know this is horrible. But I will sleep better knowing that we this feature need never make it into a final 1.0 spec, since it can be assumed at that point...> pr_debug("%s: xmit %p %pM\n", vi->dev->name, skb, dest); > + if (vi->mergeable_rx_bufs) > + hdr_len = sizeof hdr->mhdr; > + else > + hdr_len = sizeof hdr->hdr; > + > + can_push = vi->any_header_sg && > + !((unsigned long)skb->data & (__alignof__(*hdr) - 1)) && > + !skb_header_cloned(skb) && skb_headroom(skb) >= hdr_len;Idle thought: how often does this fail? Would it suck if we copied headers which didn't let us prepend data? Or could we bump dev->hard_header_len appropriately? Thanks, Rusty.
Jason Wang
2013-Jun-07 02:52 UTC
[PATCH] virtio-net: put virtio net header inline with data
On 06/06/2013 05:55 PM, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:> For small packets we can simplify xmit processing by linearizing buffers > with the header: most packets seem to have enough head room we can use > for this purpose. > > Since some older hypervisors (e.g. qemu before version 1.5) > required that header is the first s/g element, > we need a feature bit for this. > > Signed-off-by: Michael S. Tsirkin <mst at redhat.com> > ---Hi Michael: The idea looks good, but there are some questions: - What if we just use direct descriptors with sgs <=2 and double the ring size? - I believe we may add more things into vnet header in the future, so this trick may not work because of limited header room. Thanks> This is a repost of my old patch, rebased to latest kernel. > > Before: > Thu Jun 6 05:24:59 EDT 2013 > TCP REQUEST/RESPONSE TEST from 0.0.0.0 (0.0.0.0) port 0 AF_INET to > 11.0.0.4 (11.0.0.4) port 0 AF_INET : demo > Local /Remote > Socket Size Request Resp. Elapsed Trans. > Send Recv Size Size Time Rate > bytes Bytes bytes bytes secs. per sec > > 16384 87380 1 1 10.00 12931.13 > > > After: > TCP REQUEST/RESPONSE TEST from 0.0.0.0 (0.0.0.0) port 0 AF_INET to > 11.0.0.4 (11.0.0.4) port 0 AF_INET : demo > Local /Remote > Socket Size Request Resp. Elapsed Trans. > Send Recv Size Size Time Rate > bytes Bytes bytes bytes secs. per sec > > 16384 87380 1 1 10.00 14151.12 > > > drivers/net/virtio_net.c | 42 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-------- > include/uapi/linux/virtio_net.h | 6 +++++- > 2 files changed, 39 insertions(+), 9 deletions(-) > > diff --git a/drivers/net/virtio_net.c b/drivers/net/virtio_net.c > index c9e0038..d35a097 100644 > --- a/drivers/net/virtio_net.c > +++ b/drivers/net/virtio_net.c > @@ -106,6 +106,9 @@ struct virtnet_info { > /* Has control virtqueue */ > bool has_cvq; > > + /* Host can handle any s/g split between our header and packet data */ > + bool any_header_sg; > + > /* enable config space updates */ > bool config_enable; > > @@ -668,12 +671,28 @@ static void free_old_xmit_skbs(struct send_queue *sq) > > static int xmit_skb(struct send_queue *sq, struct sk_buff *skb) > { > - struct skb_vnet_hdr *hdr = skb_vnet_hdr(skb); > + struct skb_vnet_hdr *hdr; > const unsigned char *dest = ((struct ethhdr *)skb->data)->h_dest; > struct virtnet_info *vi = sq->vq->vdev->priv; > unsigned num_sg; > + unsigned hdr_len; > + bool can_push; > > pr_debug("%s: xmit %p %pM\n", vi->dev->name, skb, dest); > + if (vi->mergeable_rx_bufs) > + hdr_len = sizeof hdr->mhdr; > + else > + hdr_len = sizeof hdr->hdr; > + > + can_push = vi->any_header_sg && > + !((unsigned long)skb->data & (__alignof__(*hdr) - 1)) && > + !skb_header_cloned(skb) && skb_headroom(skb) >= hdr_len; > + /* Even if we can, don't push here yet as this would skew > + * csum_start offset below. */ > + if (can_push) > + hdr = (struct skb_vnet_hdr *)(skb->data - hdr_len); > + else > + hdr = skb_vnet_hdr(skb); > > if (skb->ip_summed == CHECKSUM_PARTIAL) { > hdr->hdr.flags = VIRTIO_NET_HDR_F_NEEDS_CSUM; > @@ -702,15 +721,18 @@ static int xmit_skb(struct send_queue *sq, struct sk_buff *skb) > hdr->hdr.gso_size = hdr->hdr.hdr_len = 0; > } > > - hdr->mhdr.num_buffers = 0; > - > - /* Encode metadata header at front. */ > if (vi->mergeable_rx_bufs) > - sg_set_buf(sq->sg, &hdr->mhdr, sizeof hdr->mhdr); > - else > - sg_set_buf(sq->sg, &hdr->hdr, sizeof hdr->hdr); > + hdr->mhdr.num_buffers = 0; > > - num_sg = skb_to_sgvec(skb, sq->sg + 1, 0, skb->len) + 1; > + if (can_push) { > + __skb_push(skb, hdr_len); > + num_sg = skb_to_sgvec(skb, sq->sg, 0, skb->len); > + /* Pull header back to avoid skew in tx bytes calculations. */ > + __skb_pull(skb, hdr_len); > + } else { > + sg_set_buf(sq->sg, hdr, hdr_len); > + num_sg = skb_to_sgvec(skb, sq->sg + 1, 0, skb->len) + 1; > + } > return virtqueue_add_outbuf(sq->vq, sq->sg, num_sg, skb, GFP_ATOMIC); > } > > @@ -1554,6 +1576,9 @@ static int virtnet_probe(struct virtio_device *vdev) > if (virtio_has_feature(vdev, VIRTIO_NET_F_MRG_RXBUF)) > vi->mergeable_rx_bufs = true; > > + if (virtio_has_feature(vdev, VIRTIO_NET_F_ANY_HEADER_SG)) > + vi->any_header_sg = true; > + > if (virtio_has_feature(vdev, VIRTIO_NET_F_CTRL_VQ)) > vi->has_cvq = true; > > @@ -1729,6 +1754,7 @@ static unsigned int features[] = { > VIRTIO_NET_F_CTRL_RX, VIRTIO_NET_F_CTRL_VLAN, > VIRTIO_NET_F_GUEST_ANNOUNCE, VIRTIO_NET_F_MQ, > VIRTIO_NET_F_CTRL_MAC_ADDR, > + VIRTIO_NET_F_ANY_HEADER_SG, > }; > > static struct virtio_driver virtio_net_driver = { > diff --git a/include/uapi/linux/virtio_net.h b/include/uapi/linux/virtio_net.h > index c520203..9c98b7d 100644 > --- a/include/uapi/linux/virtio_net.h > +++ b/include/uapi/linux/virtio_net.h > @@ -55,6 +55,8 @@ > * Steering */ > #define VIRTIO_NET_F_CTRL_MAC_ADDR 23 /* Set MAC address */ > > +#define VIRTIO_NET_F_ANY_HEADER_SG 25 /* Host can handle any header s/g */ > + > #define VIRTIO_NET_S_LINK_UP 1 /* Link is up */ > #define VIRTIO_NET_S_ANNOUNCE 2 /* Announcement is needed */ > > @@ -70,7 +72,9 @@ struct virtio_net_config { > __u16 max_virtqueue_pairs; > } __attribute__((packed)); > > -/* This is the first element of the scatter-gather list. If you don't > +/* This header comes first in the scatter-gather list. > + * If VIRTIO_NET_F_ANY_HEADER_SG is not negotiated, it must > + * be the first element of the scatter-gather list. If you don't > * specify GSO or CSUM features, you can simply ignore the header. */ > struct virtio_net_hdr { > #define VIRTIO_NET_HDR_F_NEEDS_CSUM 1 // Use csum_start, csum_offset
Michael S. Tsirkin
2013-Jun-09 06:52 UTC
[PATCH] virtio-net: put virtio net header inline with data
On Fri, Jun 07, 2013 at 10:52:01AM +0800, Jason Wang wrote:> On 06/06/2013 05:55 PM, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > > For small packets we can simplify xmit processing by linearizing buffers > > with the header: most packets seem to have enough head room we can use > > for this purpose. > > > > Since some older hypervisors (e.g. qemu before version 1.5) > > required that header is the first s/g element, > > we need a feature bit for this. > > > > Signed-off-by: Michael S. Tsirkin <mst at redhat.com> > > --- > > Hi Michael: > > The idea looks good, but there are some questions: > > - What if we just use direct descriptors with sgs <=2 and double the > ring size?It's not easy to increase the ring size, we have trouble allocating large rings on some systems as it is. So far, any attempts to use direct for sg > 1 seem to hurt some workloads.> - I believe we may add more things into vnet header in the future, so > this trick may not work because of limited header room. > > ThanksDidn't happen in a long while. We can come up with more tricks when we run against this limit.> > This is a repost of my old patch, rebased to latest kernel. > > > > Before: > > Thu Jun 6 05:24:59 EDT 2013 > > TCP REQUEST/RESPONSE TEST from 0.0.0.0 (0.0.0.0) port 0 AF_INET to > > 11.0.0.4 (11.0.0.4) port 0 AF_INET : demo > > Local /Remote > > Socket Size Request Resp. Elapsed Trans. > > Send Recv Size Size Time Rate > > bytes Bytes bytes bytes secs. per sec > > > > 16384 87380 1 1 10.00 12931.13 > > > > > > After: > > TCP REQUEST/RESPONSE TEST from 0.0.0.0 (0.0.0.0) port 0 AF_INET to > > 11.0.0.4 (11.0.0.4) port 0 AF_INET : demo > > Local /Remote > > Socket Size Request Resp. Elapsed Trans. > > Send Recv Size Size Time Rate > > bytes Bytes bytes bytes secs. per sec > > > > 16384 87380 1 1 10.00 14151.12 > > > > > > drivers/net/virtio_net.c | 42 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-------- > > include/uapi/linux/virtio_net.h | 6 +++++- > > 2 files changed, 39 insertions(+), 9 deletions(-) > > > > diff --git a/drivers/net/virtio_net.c b/drivers/net/virtio_net.c > > index c9e0038..d35a097 100644 > > --- a/drivers/net/virtio_net.c > > +++ b/drivers/net/virtio_net.c > > @@ -106,6 +106,9 @@ struct virtnet_info { > > /* Has control virtqueue */ > > bool has_cvq; > > > > + /* Host can handle any s/g split between our header and packet data */ > > + bool any_header_sg; > > + > > /* enable config space updates */ > > bool config_enable; > > > > @@ -668,12 +671,28 @@ static void free_old_xmit_skbs(struct send_queue *sq) > > > > static int xmit_skb(struct send_queue *sq, struct sk_buff *skb) > > { > > - struct skb_vnet_hdr *hdr = skb_vnet_hdr(skb); > > + struct skb_vnet_hdr *hdr; > > const unsigned char *dest = ((struct ethhdr *)skb->data)->h_dest; > > struct virtnet_info *vi = sq->vq->vdev->priv; > > unsigned num_sg; > > + unsigned hdr_len; > > + bool can_push; > > > > pr_debug("%s: xmit %p %pM\n", vi->dev->name, skb, dest); > > + if (vi->mergeable_rx_bufs) > > + hdr_len = sizeof hdr->mhdr; > > + else > > + hdr_len = sizeof hdr->hdr; > > + > > + can_push = vi->any_header_sg && > > + !((unsigned long)skb->data & (__alignof__(*hdr) - 1)) && > > + !skb_header_cloned(skb) && skb_headroom(skb) >= hdr_len; > > + /* Even if we can, don't push here yet as this would skew > > + * csum_start offset below. */ > > + if (can_push) > > + hdr = (struct skb_vnet_hdr *)(skb->data - hdr_len); > > + else > > + hdr = skb_vnet_hdr(skb); > > > > if (skb->ip_summed == CHECKSUM_PARTIAL) { > > hdr->hdr.flags = VIRTIO_NET_HDR_F_NEEDS_CSUM; > > @@ -702,15 +721,18 @@ static int xmit_skb(struct send_queue *sq, struct sk_buff *skb) > > hdr->hdr.gso_size = hdr->hdr.hdr_len = 0; > > } > > > > - hdr->mhdr.num_buffers = 0; > > - > > - /* Encode metadata header at front. */ > > if (vi->mergeable_rx_bufs) > > - sg_set_buf(sq->sg, &hdr->mhdr, sizeof hdr->mhdr); > > - else > > - sg_set_buf(sq->sg, &hdr->hdr, sizeof hdr->hdr); > > + hdr->mhdr.num_buffers = 0; > > > > - num_sg = skb_to_sgvec(skb, sq->sg + 1, 0, skb->len) + 1; > > + if (can_push) { > > + __skb_push(skb, hdr_len); > > + num_sg = skb_to_sgvec(skb, sq->sg, 0, skb->len); > > + /* Pull header back to avoid skew in tx bytes calculations. */ > > + __skb_pull(skb, hdr_len); > > + } else { > > + sg_set_buf(sq->sg, hdr, hdr_len); > > + num_sg = skb_to_sgvec(skb, sq->sg + 1, 0, skb->len) + 1; > > + } > > return virtqueue_add_outbuf(sq->vq, sq->sg, num_sg, skb, GFP_ATOMIC); > > } > > > > @@ -1554,6 +1576,9 @@ static int virtnet_probe(struct virtio_device *vdev) > > if (virtio_has_feature(vdev, VIRTIO_NET_F_MRG_RXBUF)) > > vi->mergeable_rx_bufs = true; > > > > + if (virtio_has_feature(vdev, VIRTIO_NET_F_ANY_HEADER_SG)) > > + vi->any_header_sg = true; > > + > > if (virtio_has_feature(vdev, VIRTIO_NET_F_CTRL_VQ)) > > vi->has_cvq = true; > > > > @@ -1729,6 +1754,7 @@ static unsigned int features[] = { > > VIRTIO_NET_F_CTRL_RX, VIRTIO_NET_F_CTRL_VLAN, > > VIRTIO_NET_F_GUEST_ANNOUNCE, VIRTIO_NET_F_MQ, > > VIRTIO_NET_F_CTRL_MAC_ADDR, > > + VIRTIO_NET_F_ANY_HEADER_SG, > > }; > > > > static struct virtio_driver virtio_net_driver = { > > diff --git a/include/uapi/linux/virtio_net.h b/include/uapi/linux/virtio_net.h > > index c520203..9c98b7d 100644 > > --- a/include/uapi/linux/virtio_net.h > > +++ b/include/uapi/linux/virtio_net.h > > @@ -55,6 +55,8 @@ > > * Steering */ > > #define VIRTIO_NET_F_CTRL_MAC_ADDR 23 /* Set MAC address */ > > > > +#define VIRTIO_NET_F_ANY_HEADER_SG 25 /* Host can handle any header s/g */ > > + > > #define VIRTIO_NET_S_LINK_UP 1 /* Link is up */ > > #define VIRTIO_NET_S_ANNOUNCE 2 /* Announcement is needed */ > > > > @@ -70,7 +72,9 @@ struct virtio_net_config { > > __u16 max_virtqueue_pairs; > > } __attribute__((packed)); > > > > -/* This is the first element of the scatter-gather list. If you don't > > +/* This header comes first in the scatter-gather list. > > + * If VIRTIO_NET_F_ANY_HEADER_SG is not negotiated, it must > > + * be the first element of the scatter-gather list. If you don't > > * specify GSO or CSUM features, you can simply ignore the header. */ > > struct virtio_net_hdr { > > #define VIRTIO_NET_HDR_F_NEEDS_CSUM 1 // Use csum_start, csum_offset
Michael S. Tsirkin
2013-Jun-09 07:11 UTC
[PATCH] virtio-net: put virtio net header inline with data
On Fri, Jun 07, 2013 at 11:42:43AM +0930, Rusty Russell wrote:> "Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst at redhat.com> writes: > > For small packets we can simplify xmit processing by linearizing buffers > > with the header: most packets seem to have enough head room we can use > > for this purpose. > > > > Since some older hypervisors (e.g. qemu before version 1.5) > > required that header is the first s/g element, > > we need a feature bit for this. > > OK, we know this is horrible. But I will sleep better knowing that we > this feature need never make it into a final 1.0 spec, since it can be > assumed at that point...Nod. Though if we want to require this for all devices, virtio-blk scsi command passthrough will need to change - I sent a spec patch a while ago virtio-spec: add field for scsi command size any comments on it?> > pr_debug("%s: xmit %p %pM\n", vi->dev->name, skb, dest); > > + if (vi->mergeable_rx_bufs) > > + hdr_len = sizeof hdr->mhdr; > > + else > > + hdr_len = sizeof hdr->hdr; > > + > > + can_push = vi->any_header_sg && > > + !((unsigned long)skb->data & (__alignof__(*hdr) - 1)) && > > + !skb_header_cloned(skb) && skb_headroom(skb) >= hdr_len; > > Idle thought: how often does this fail?I think it's mostly doesn't fail in my testing. It's probably a good idea to add a counter here, then if it starts triggering we can optimize. I think things like skb_header_cloned depend on guest config really, e.g. tcpdump running on the interface in guest can cause this.> Would it suck if we copied > headers which didn't let us prepend data?I think it will - copies are generally best avoided, and header is easily 1K of data.> Or could we bump > dev->hard_header_len appropriately?Needs some thought, though from experience it's a pain.> Thanks, > Rusty.
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