On Wednesday, August 31, 2016, Mark Linimon <linimon at lonesome.com> wrote:> I'll demur just a bit on your points. > > On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 08:51:02PM -0700, K. Macy wrote: > > "we need a compiler to build the system" (a prebuilt package does that > > just fine), > > Well, yes, for a tier-1 machine; and one that is connected to the network. > > > I can't speak for the whole universe of users, but I think it's safe > > to say that most users are not power users who individually configure > > ports tailored to their needs. > > We've certainly tried to provide a migration path away from that, but I > don't think anyone has statistics about how far along we are. IMHO we > can't assume it's 100%, or maybe even 80%. > > > I think my experiences on Ubuntu [...] are illustrative. > > A number of years ago Ubuntu and FreeBSD had barely overlapping audiences: > end-users and developers. With all the improvements to pkg and tier-1 > packages I hope that is changing -- the goal of expanding the reach is > why I supported all the changes I saw being made. > > But for me an attraction has always been "you can build it out of the box", > even if I rarely do it (e.g. I am not working in the kernel/driver area), > > mcl >Can clang actually bootstrap from something like lcc? As far as I can tell you need a fairly advanced C++ compiler just to build that compiler in src - which already needs to be installed. It's not exactly bootstrapping from Bourne shell. So I'm not sure "it's self-hosting" is even true, not to mention that you needed a network connection to get src in the first place. Thus the whole argument strikes me as circular if not outright deceptive. -M
On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 12:16:16PM -0700, K. Macy wrote:> On Wednesday, August 31, 2016, Mark Linimon <linimon at lonesome.com> wrote: > > > I'll demur just a bit on your points. > > > > On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 08:51:02PM -0700, K. Macy wrote: > > > "we need a compiler to build the system" (a prebuilt package does that > > > just fine), > > > > Well, yes, for a tier-1 machine; and one that is connected to the network. > > > > > I can't speak for the whole universe of users, but I think it's safe > > > to say that most users are not power users who individually configure > > > ports tailored to their needs. > > > > We've certainly tried to provide a migration path away from that, but I > > don't think anyone has statistics about how far along we are. IMHO we > > can't assume it's 100%, or maybe even 80%. > > > > > I think my experiences on Ubuntu [...] are illustrative. > > > > A number of years ago Ubuntu and FreeBSD had barely overlapping audiences: > > end-users and developers. With all the improvements to pkg and tier-1 > > packages I hope that is changing -- the goal of expanding the reach is > > why I supported all the changes I saw being made. > > > > But for me an attraction has always been "you can build it out of the box", > > even if I rarely do it (e.g. I am not working in the kernel/driver area), > > Can clang actually bootstrap from something like lcc? As far as I can tell > you need a fairly advanced C++ compiler just to build that compiler in src > - which already needs to be installed. It's not exactly bootstrapping from > Bourne shell. So I'm not sure "it's self-hosting" is even true, not to > mention that you needed a network connection to get src in the first place. > Thus the whole argument strikes me as circular if not outright deceptive.Clang needs a pretty complete C++11 compiler and runtime which means modern gcc or clang. -- Brooks -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 455 bytes Desc: not available URL: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/attachments/20160831/469db730/attachment.sig>
Hi, On Wed, 31 Aug 2016 12:16:16 -0700 "K. Macy" <kmacy at freebsd.org> wrote:> On Wednesday, August 31, 2016, Mark Linimon <linimon at lonesome.com> > wrote: > > > But for me an attraction has always been "you can build it out of > > the box", even if I rarely do it (e.g. I am not working in the > > kernel/driver area), > > > > Can clang actually bootstrap from something like lcc? As far as I can > tell you need a fairly advanced C++ compiler just to build that > compiler in src > - which already needs to be installed. It's not exactly bootstrapping > from Bourne shell. So I'm not sure "it's self-hosting" is even true, > not to mention that you needed a network connection to get src in the > first place. Thus the whole argument strikes me as circular if not > outright deceptive. >what do you want to say? CLang builds on FreeBSD after installing FreeBSD either binary or from source. If the installation is older, it might be required to move up the version ladder step by step. The only problem I see is the time it take to build it. As long it is the choice a user has, it is part of the game. Or with your words, it is not a shell. Erich