BlissSam
2012-May-31 04:20 UTC
[Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts
Hello fontconfig, I am a Simplified Chinese user, and I want font substitution for CJK fonts to be implemented. Most Chinese fonts are mainly divided into four styles: 1. Song (Pronounced `soon''), serif, also called `Ming'' in Taiwan and Hong Kong, `Mincho'' in Japan, `Batang'' in Korea) 2. Hei, sans-serif, also called `Meiryo'' in Japan, `Dotum'' in Korea 3. Kai, brush handwriting style, likely to be serif 4. FangSong, likely to be sans-serif 5. Others such as Li, Wei, etc, is not discussed here. I have sorted these fonts according to my preference, however, I do not know a lot about what fonts users in TW, HK, JP, or KR prefer. Hei: WenQuanYi Micro Hei (Free font) WenQuanYi Zen Hei (Free font) Hiragino Sans GB (Used in OS X Lion as default) Microsoft Yahei (Used in Windows Vista and above as default) STHeiTi (Used in iOS as default, in OS X and in Windows) SimHei (Used in Windows) Droid Sans Fallback (Used in Android as default) Song: STSong (Used in OS X and in Windows) SimSun (Used in Windows) AR PL UMing CN (Free font, this is the worst choice because Arphic''s CN fonts are in TW style although it is marked `CN'') Kai: STKaiti (Used in OS X and in Windows) KaiTi (Used in Windows Vista and above) KaiTi_GB2312 (Used in Windows XP and below) AR PL UKai CN (Free font) FangSong: STFangsong (Used in OS X and in Windows) FangSong (Used in Windows Vista and above) FangSong_GB2312 (Used in Windows XP and below) What I want to be implemented is, when one of the fonts is missing, fontconfig will search for others for substitution. For example, if a document requires SimHei which is not installed currently, fontconfig may use WenQuanYi Micro Hei instead. And if Micro Hei is missing either, Zen Hei will be used. Sincerely yours. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/fontconfig/attachments/20120531/36cafcc6/attachment.html>
suzuki toshiya
2012-May-31 04:33 UTC
[Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts
Hi, It''s good to find the comments from (Simplified) Chinese user about the typeface classification. Because of the limitations of the variety of typeface in free software society, the discussion of the font fallback among Kai, Fangsong and other aesthetic-oriented typefaces (Li, Wei, etc) would be required. I will post something about existing conventions in Japanese typeface classification in next week (sorry for my long long latency to Tagoh-san). Regards, mpsuzuki BlissSam wrote:> Hello fontconfig, I am a Simplified Chinese user, and I want font substitution for CJK fonts to be implemented. > > Most Chinese fonts are mainly divided into four styles: > 1. Song (Pronounced `soon''), serif, also called `Ming'' in Taiwan and Hong Kong, `Mincho'' in Japan, `Batang'' in Korea) > 2. Hei, sans-serif, also called `Meiryo'' in Japan, `Dotum'' in Korea > 3. Kai, brush handwriting style, likely to be serif > 4. FangSong, likely to be sans-serif > 5. Others such as Li, Wei, etc, is not discussed here. > > I have sorted these fonts according to my preference, however, I do not know a lot about what fonts users in TW, HK, JP, or KR prefer. > > Hei: > WenQuanYi Micro Hei (Free font) > WenQuanYi Zen Hei (Free font) > Hiragino Sans GB (Used in OS X Lion as default) > Microsoft Yahei (Used in Windows Vista and above as default) > STHeiTi (Used in iOS as default, in OS X and in Windows) > SimHei (Used in Windows) > Droid Sans Fallback (Used in Android as default) > > Song: > STSong (Used in OS X and in Windows) > SimSun (Used in Windows) > AR PL UMing CN (Free font, this is the worst choice because Arphic''s CN fonts are in TW style although it is marked `CN'') > > Kai: > STKaiti (Used in OS X and in Windows) > KaiTi (Used in Windows Vista and above) > KaiTi_GB2312 (Used in Windows XP and below) > AR PL UKai CN (Free font) > > FangSong: > STFangsong (Used in OS X and in Windows) > FangSong (Used in Windows Vista and above) > FangSong_GB2312 (Used in Windows XP and below) > > What I want to be implemented is, when one of the fonts is missing, fontconfig will search for others for substitution. > For example, if a document requires SimHei which is not installed currently, fontconfig may use WenQuanYi Micro Hei instead. And if Micro Hei is missing either, Zen Hei will be used. > > Sincerely yours. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Fontconfig mailing list > Fontconfig at lists.freedesktop.org > http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/fontconfig
Akira TAGOH
2012-May-31 06:14 UTC
[Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts
First of all, my opinion on this kind of question/suggestion is, to let you encourage to work together with the font upstream or the distros if you want the complete list of the fallback. this is because it''s quite hard to settle all of requirements and preferences. IMHO having minimal amount of the rules in fontconfig would be sufficient. we could have an example in fontconfig how to write the rule of the fallback though, it''s not the things that mean our recommendation about the order of the fonts. Aside from that, having the rules in fontconfig for the fonts may not installed on the system more or less affects its performance and footprint. Well, that may be nice if we can provide a tool to generate the kind of the rules instead as I posted here some while ago. dunno. On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:20 PM, BlissSam <m13253 at hotmail.com> wrote:> Hello fontconfig, I am a Simplified Chinese user, and I want font > substitution for CJK fonts to be implemented. > > Most Chinese fonts are mainly divided into four styles: > ? 1. Song (Pronounced `soon''), serif, also called `Ming'' in Taiwan and Hong > Kong, `Mincho'' in Japan, `Batang'' in Korea) > ? 2. Hei, sans-serif, also called `Meiryo'' in Japan, `Dotum'' in Korea > ? 3. Kai, brush handwriting style, likely to be serif > ? 4. FangSong, likely to be sans-serif > ? 5. Others such as Li, Wei, etc, is not discussed here. > > I have sorted these fonts according to my preference, however, I do not know > a lot about what fonts users in TW, HK, JP, or KR prefer. > > Hei: > ? WenQuanYi Micro Hei (Free font) > ? WenQuanYi Zen Hei ? (Free font) > ? Hiragino Sans GB ? ?(Used in OS X Lion as default) > ? Microsoft Yahei ? ? (Used in Windows Vista and above as default) > ? STHeiTi ? ? ? ? ? ? (Used in iOS as default, in OS X and in Windows) > ? SimHei ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(Used in Windows) > ? Droid Sans Fallback (Used in Android as default) > > Song: > ? STSong ? ? ? ? (Used in OS X and in Windows) > ? SimSun ? ? ? ? (Used in Windows) > ? AR PL UMing CN (Free font, this is the worst choice because Arphic''s CN > fonts are in TW style although it is marked `CN'') > > Kai: > ? STKaiti ? ? ? (Used in OS X and in Windows) > ? KaiTi ? ? ? ? (Used in Windows Vista and above) > ? KaiTi_GB2312 ?(Used in Windows XP and below) > ? AR PL UKai CN (Free font) > > FangSong: > ? STFangsong ? ? ?(Used in OS X and in Windows) > ? FangSong ? ? ? ?(Used in Windows Vista and above) > ? FangSong_GB2312 (Used in Windows XP and below) > > What I want to be implemented is, when one of the fonts is missing, > fontconfig will search for others for substitution. > For example, if a document requires SimHei which is not installed currently, > fontconfig may use WenQuanYi Micro Hei instead. And if Micro Hei is missing > either, Zen Hei will be used. > > Sincerely yours. > > > _______________________________________________ > Fontconfig mailing list > Fontconfig at lists.freedesktop.org > http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/fontconfig >-- Akira TAGOH
BlissSam
2012-May-31 11:19 UTC
[Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts
I think a tool to generate these kind of rules is necessary. However, the table I listed in the previous message is necessary, too.Try to think, if Helvetica font is required but not installed, fonconfig will surely choose Arial or?Liberation Sans to?substitute.As the same, if a document requires STSong, will fontconfig choose SimSun to display that document?These fonts are basic fonts in CJK typography, so I think substitutions among these fonts are necessary. Therefore, if Helvetica->Arial exists, STSong->SimSun exists too.> Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 15:14:35 +0900 > Subject: Re: [Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts > From: akira at tagoh.org > To: m13253 at hotmail.com > CC: fontconfig at lists.freedesktop.org > > First of all, my opinion on this kind of question/suggestion is, to > let you encourage to work together with the font upstream or the > distros if you want the complete list of the fallback. this is because > it''s quite hard to settle all of requirements and preferences. IMHO > having minimal amount of the rules in fontconfig would be sufficient. > we could have an example in fontconfig how to write the rule of the > fallback though, it''s not the things that mean our recommendation > about the order of the fonts. > Aside from that, having the rules in fontconfig for the fonts may not > installed on the system more or less affects its performance and > footprint. > > Well, that may be nice if we can provide a tool to generate the kind > of the rules instead as I posted here some while ago. dunno. > > On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:20 PM, BlissSam <m13253 at hotmail.com> wrote: > > Hello fontconfig, I am a Simplified Chinese user, and I want font > > substitution for CJK fonts to be implemented. > > > > Most Chinese fonts are mainly divided into four styles: > > ? 1. Song (Pronounced `soon''), serif, also called `Ming'' in Taiwan and Hong > > Kong, `Mincho'' in Japan, `Batang'' in Korea) > > ? 2. Hei, sans-serif, also called `Meiryo'' in Japan, `Dotum'' in Korea > > ? 3. Kai, brush handwriting style, likely to be serif > > ? 4. FangSong, likely to be sans-serif > > ? 5. Others such as Li, Wei, etc, is not discussed here. > > > > I have sorted these fonts according to my preference, however, I do not know > > a lot about what fonts users in TW, HK, JP, or KR prefer. > > > > Hei: > > ? WenQuanYi Micro Hei (Free font) > > ? WenQuanYi Zen Hei ? (Free font) > > ? Hiragino Sans GB ? ?(Used in OS X Lion as default) > > ? Microsoft Yahei ? ? (Used in Windows Vista and above as default) > > ? STHeiTi ? ? ? ? ? ? (Used in iOS as default, in OS X and in Windows) > > ? SimHei ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(Used in Windows) > > ? Droid Sans Fallback (Used in Android as default) > > > > Song: > > ? STSong ? ? ? ? (Used in OS X and in Windows) > > ? SimSun ? ? ? ? (Used in Windows) > > ? AR PL UMing CN (Free font, this is the worst choice because Arphic''s CN > > fonts are in TW style although it is marked `CN'') > > > > Kai: > > ? STKaiti ? ? ? (Used in OS X and in Windows) > > ? KaiTi ? ? ? ? (Used in Windows Vista and above) > > ? KaiTi_GB2312 ?(Used in Windows XP and below) > > ? AR PL UKai CN (Free font) > > > > FangSong: > > ? STFangsong ? ? ?(Used in OS X and in Windows) > > ? FangSong ? ? ? ?(Used in Windows Vista and above) > > ? FangSong_GB2312 (Used in Windows XP and below) > > > > What I want to be implemented is, when one of the fonts is missing, > > fontconfig will search for others for substitution. > > For example, if a document requires SimHei which is not installed currently, > > fontconfig may use WenQuanYi Micro Hei instead. And if Micro Hei is missing > > either, Zen Hei will be used. > > > > Sincerely yours. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Fontconfig mailing list > > Fontconfig at lists.freedesktop.org > > http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/fontconfig > > > > > > -- > Akira TAGOH
BlissSam
2012-May-31 11:40 UTC
[Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts
Sorry for my misconfigured mail software and all new-lines vanished in the previous mail. I would like to explain it in detail. What I mean is, the substitution table I have given IS ALREADY minimal and basic--SimSun to Chinese is like Times New Roman to English. More than 90% of the Chinese users will use SimSun or STSong as their default serif font, so IT IS COMMON ENOUGH, Just like more than 90% of the English users will choose Arial or Helvetica as their sans-serif font. But I think a easy-to-use tool to generate font substitution (and also font preferences) is necessary too. So other fonts (e.g. Wei-style or Li-style, they are NOT MINIMAL) substitution rules can be applied by user. Thanks all the same even if you have different opinions. ----------------------------------------> Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 15:14:35 +0900 > Subject: Re: [Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts > From: akira at tagoh.org > To: m13253 at hotmail.com > CC: fontconfig at lists.freedesktop.org > > First of all, my opinion on this kind of question/suggestion is, to > let you encourage to work together with the font upstream or the > distros if you want the complete list of the fallback. this is because > it''s quite hard to settle all of requirements and preferences. IMHO > having minimal amount of the rules in fontconfig would be sufficient. > we could have an example in fontconfig how to write the rule of the > fallback though, it''s not the things that mean our recommendation > about the order of the fonts. > Aside from that, having the rules in fontconfig for the fonts may not > installed on the system more or less affects its performance and > footprint. > > Well, that may be nice if we can provide a tool to generate the kind > of the rules instead as I posted here some while ago. dunno. > > On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:20 PM, BlissSam <m13253 at hotmail.com> wrote: > > Hello fontconfig, I am a Simplified Chinese user, and I want font > > substitution for CJK fonts to be implemented. > > > > Most Chinese fonts are mainly divided into four styles: > > 1. Song (Pronounced `soon''), serif, also called `Ming'' in Taiwan and Hong > > Kong, `Mincho'' in Japan, `Batang'' in Korea) > > 2. Hei, sans-serif, also called `Meiryo'' in Japan, `Dotum'' in Korea > > 3. Kai, brush handwriting style, likely to be serif > > 4. FangSong, likely to be sans-serif > > 5. Others such as Li, Wei, etc, is not discussed here. > > > > I have sorted these fonts according to my preference, however, I do not know > > a lot about what fonts users in TW, HK, JP, or KR prefer. > > > > Hei: > > WenQuanYi Micro Hei (Free font) > > WenQuanYi Zen Hei (Free font) > > Hiragino Sans GB (Used in OS X Lion as default) > > Microsoft Yahei (Used in Windows Vista and above as default) > > STHeiTi (Used in iOS as default, in OS X and in Windows) > > SimHei (Used in Windows) > > Droid Sans Fallback (Used in Android as default) > > > > Song: > > STSong (Used in OS X and in Windows) > > SimSun (Used in Windows) > > AR PL UMing CN (Free font, this is the worst choice because Arphic''s CN > > fonts are in TW style although it is marked `CN'') > > > > Kai: > > STKaiti (Used in OS X and in Windows) > > KaiTi (Used in Windows Vista and above) > > KaiTi_GB2312 (Used in Windows XP and below) > > AR PL UKai CN (Free font) > > > > FangSong: > > STFangsong (Used in OS X and in Windows) > > FangSong (Used in Windows Vista and above) > > FangSong_GB2312 (Used in Windows XP and below) > > > > What I want to be implemented is, when one of the fonts is missing, > > fontconfig will search for others for substitution. > > For example, if a document requires SimHei which is not installed currently, > > fontconfig may use WenQuanYi Micro Hei instead. And if Micro Hei is missing > > either, Zen Hei will be used. > > > > Sincerely yours. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Fontconfig mailing list > > Fontconfig at lists.freedesktop.org > > http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/fontconfig > > > > > > -- > Akira TAGOH
Behdad Esfahbod
2012-May-31 12:47 UTC
[Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts
Just a quick note: 65-fonts-persian.conf implements similar functionality for Persian font families, in case someone needs an example. behdad On 05/31/2012 02:14 AM, Akira TAGOH wrote:> First of all, my opinion on this kind of question/suggestion is, to > let you encourage to work together with the font upstream or the > distros if you want the complete list of the fallback. this is because > it''s quite hard to settle all of requirements and preferences. IMHO > having minimal amount of the rules in fontconfig would be sufficient. > we could have an example in fontconfig how to write the rule of the > fallback though, it''s not the things that mean our recommendation > about the order of the fonts. > Aside from that, having the rules in fontconfig for the fonts may not > installed on the system more or less affects its performance and > footprint. > > Well, that may be nice if we can provide a tool to generate the kind > of the rules instead as I posted here some while ago. dunno. > > On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:20 PM, BlissSam <m13253 at hotmail.com> wrote: >> Hello fontconfig, I am a Simplified Chinese user, and I want font >> substitution for CJK fonts to be implemented. >> >> Most Chinese fonts are mainly divided into four styles: >> 1. Song (Pronounced `soon''), serif, also called `Ming'' in Taiwan and Hong >> Kong, `Mincho'' in Japan, `Batang'' in Korea) >> 2. Hei, sans-serif, also called `Meiryo'' in Japan, `Dotum'' in Korea >> 3. Kai, brush handwriting style, likely to be serif >> 4. FangSong, likely to be sans-serif >> 5. Others such as Li, Wei, etc, is not discussed here. >> >> I have sorted these fonts according to my preference, however, I do not know >> a lot about what fonts users in TW, HK, JP, or KR prefer. >> >> Hei: >> WenQuanYi Micro Hei (Free font) >> WenQuanYi Zen Hei (Free font) >> Hiragino Sans GB (Used in OS X Lion as default) >> Microsoft Yahei (Used in Windows Vista and above as default) >> STHeiTi (Used in iOS as default, in OS X and in Windows) >> SimHei (Used in Windows) >> Droid Sans Fallback (Used in Android as default) >> >> Song: >> STSong (Used in OS X and in Windows) >> SimSun (Used in Windows) >> AR PL UMing CN (Free font, this is the worst choice because Arphic''s CN >> fonts are in TW style although it is marked `CN'') >> >> Kai: >> STKaiti (Used in OS X and in Windows) >> KaiTi (Used in Windows Vista and above) >> KaiTi_GB2312 (Used in Windows XP and below) >> AR PL UKai CN (Free font) >> >> FangSong: >> STFangsong (Used in OS X and in Windows) >> FangSong (Used in Windows Vista and above) >> FangSong_GB2312 (Used in Windows XP and below) >> >> What I want to be implemented is, when one of the fonts is missing, >> fontconfig will search for others for substitution. >> For example, if a document requires SimHei which is not installed currently, >> fontconfig may use WenQuanYi Micro Hei instead. And if Micro Hei is missing >> either, Zen Hei will be used. >> >> Sincerely yours. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Fontconfig mailing list >> Fontconfig at lists.freedesktop.org >> http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/fontconfig >> > > >
Akira TAGOH
2012-May-31 13:17 UTC
[Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts
On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 8:19 PM, BlissSam <m13253 at hotmail.com> wrote:> I think a tool to generate these kind of rules is necessary. However, the table I listed in the previous message is necessary, too.Try to think, if Helvetica font is required but not installed, fonconfig will surely choose Arial or?Liberation Sans to?substitute.As the same, if a document requires STSong, will fontconfig choose SimSun to display that document?These fonts are basic fonts in CJK typography, so I think substitutions among these fonts are necessary. > Therefore, if Helvetica->Arial exists, STSong->SimSun exists too.Well, strictly speaking there are no alternatives fonts of Helvetica, Courier and Times for CJK fonts since those aren''t designed for them. we just fall back to anything else only when requesting those fonts for glyphs in CJK. in your example, you may expect to modify 30-metric-aliases.conf, but for the above reason, I''m afraid I disgree with it. Aside from that, I suppose what you are linking to them is came from the generic family names as we sometimes try to find the fallback fonts out for them. e.g. Helvetica->sans-serif, Times->serif and Courier->monospace. I mean, that would be the same case with assigning the generic family names to fonts. so I would recommend to have the better rules with the font author or the distros. Honestly I would rather want to get rid of even them from fontconfig tree in the future. the classification can be guessed from the panose and the OS2 table. the last piece that is missing in this idea would be how to determine the order of the fonts though, it can be exported outside fontconfig as the preference. that should provides the minimal requirements. the problem on this idea is, there are no way to guess the classification for non OpenType/TrueType fonts. I have no idea when I can move on. but anyway. Anyway, IMHO sort of the order of the fonts should be outsourced to the desktop preference say. I guess it''s not something maintained in fontconfig today. if we don''t have sufficient facilities to do so, we should spend a time to implement it instead. that somewhat sounds constructive and productive. -- Akira TAGOH
BlissSam
2012-May-31 14:41 UTC
[Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts
I agree with SOME of your ideas. But, what I want to say first is, what is font fallback. For example (Helvetica is always a good example), if Helvetica is missing, will you choose DejaVu Sans or Tahoma to replace it? The answer is surely no. Because they are in different styles. You will certainly use Arial to substitute it, because they are compatible--which means, they almost look the same (even not all the same, compare the letter R and G). If you have used a word-processing software, you will find that, if you specify a non-exist font, it will say `blah blah font is not installed, a similar font is used instead.'' So what is a `similar font''? It means a compatible one, not one has only the same sans/serif attribute. Therefore, font fallback is NOT simply to choose a sans-serif to replace a sans-serif, or a serif to replace a serif; it is to choose another font compatible with it. So let''s talk about CJK fonts. If SimSun is missing, will SimKai replace it? No, though they are all serif font, they look totally different. What fontconfig''s fallback?feature should do is: - Keep a list of what fonts are compatible - When a font is missing, firstly search for that list to choose a compatible font - If that font is not on the list, choose another font has the same sans/serif attribute - If no info can be found from that font (e.g. it is not in TTF/OTF format so that you can have nothing got from it), simply choose the user''s favorite font which is specified in his/hers ~/.fonts.conf or somewhere else. This is the worst plan. A list should be maintained, I know. But it is really the work of fontconfig, not the distro. Does a distro keep a list of compatible fonts? ----------------------------------------> Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 22:17:59 +0900 > Subject: Re: [Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts > From: akira at tagoh.org > To: m13253 at hotmail.com > CC: fontconfig at lists.freedesktop.org > > On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 8:19 PM, BlissSam <m13253 at hotmail.com> wrote: > > I think a tool to generate these kind of rules is necessary. However, the table I listed in the previous message is necessary, too.Try to think, if Helvetica font is required but not installed, fonconfig will surely choose Arial or Liberation Sans to substitute.As the same, if a document requires STSong, will fontconfig choose SimSun to display that document?These fonts are basic fonts in CJK typography, so I think substitutions among these fonts are necessary. > > Therefore, if Helvetica->Arial exists, STSong->SimSun exists too. > > Well, strictly speaking there are no alternatives fonts of Helvetica, > Courier and Times for CJK fonts since those aren''t designed for them. > we just fall back to anything else only when requesting those fonts > for glyphs in CJK. in your example, you may expect to modify > 30-metric-aliases.conf, but for the above reason, I''m afraid I disgree > with it. > Aside from that, I suppose what you are linking to them is came from > the generic family names as we sometimes try to find the fallback > fonts out for them. e.g. Helvetica->sans-serif, Times->serif and > Courier->monospace. I mean, that would be the same case with assigning > the generic family names to fonts. so I would recommend to have the > better rules with the font author or the distros. > > Honestly I would rather want to get rid of even them from fontconfig > tree in the future. the classification can be guessed from the panose > and the OS2 table. the last piece that is missing in this idea would > be how to determine the order of the fonts though, it can be exported > outside fontconfig as the preference. that should provides the minimal > requirements. the problem on this idea is, there are no way to guess > the classification for non OpenType/TrueType fonts. I have no idea > when I can move on. but anyway. > > Anyway, IMHO sort of the order of the fonts should be outsourced to > the desktop preference say. I guess it''s not something maintained in > fontconfig today. if we don''t have sufficient facilities to do so, we > should spend a time to implement it instead. that somewhat sounds > constructive and productive. > > -- > Akira TAGOH
Akira TAGOH
2012-Jun-01 02:48 UTC
[Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts
On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 11:41 PM, BlissSam <m13253 at hotmail.com> wrote:> So let''s talk about CJK fonts. If SimSun is missing, will SimKai replace it? No, though they are all serif font, they look totally different.True. I suppose we could have the sort of metrics-alias.conf for Chinee fonts according to the classification of Hei, Kai and Song.> What fontconfig''s fallback?feature should do is: > - Keep a list of what fonts are compatible > - When a font is missing, firstly search for that list to choose a compatible font > - If that font is not on the list, choose another font has the same sans/serif attribute > - If no info can be found from that font (e.g. it is not in TTF/OTF format so that you can have nothing got from it), simply choose the user''s favorite font which is specified in his/hers ~/.fonts.conf or somewhere else. This is the worst plan.Well, not exactly for the last one. what the font the user prefer is really up to them. it''s basically out of the control in fontconfig. they can change the order in .fonts.conf to what they like.> A list should be maintained, I know. But it is really the work of fontconfig, not the distro.I''m not too concerned about maintaining metrics-alias.conf because it''s somewhat obvious and less affects to other languages. but am concerned about maintaining 60-latin.conf and 65-nonlatin.conf in fontconfig. though I mentioned in the previous mail too, a part of what you want to do is to update 65-nonlatin.conf. so I''m suggesting to do that in the font upstream or distros.> Does a distro keep a list of compatible fonts?Not really, but some distros has own list. -- Akira TAGOH
Nicolas Mailhot
2012-Jun-05 07:19 UTC
[Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts
Le Jeu 31 mai 2012 15:17, Akira TAGOH a ?crit :> Honestly I would rather want to get rid of even them from fontconfig > tree in the future. the classification can be guessed from the panose > and the OS2 table.When they are correctly filled The Microsoft WWS whitepaper explicitely stated that in-the-wild font metadata was garbage, the only thing one could rely on was the font name (because it''s user-visible so errors tend to get caught) and even there they had to define elaborate heuristics to try to correct existing mistakes (and we have regular reports of fonts that pretend to be Arial or Times New Roman because their author copied the metadata of those fonts as a starting point and never sanitized it). And Microsoft wrote this after consulting major foundries and Adobe so I''d say it''s pretty authoritative. If you add dependencies on more font metadata the way to override bad metadata must be explicitely documented (with examples) so distributors can workaround problem fonts And as I''ve stated a long time ago fontconfig does not help font authors and distributors now to apply the minimal metadata rules defined in WWS, so could we please finish cleaning up the metadata parts where we have clear industry guidance before embarking on fontconfig-specific metadata processing rules? That would imply : 1. implementing the name/style fallbacks defined in the WWS whitepaper in fontconfig 2. warning in fontconfig debug output when a font hits those fallbacks (meaning its metadata is wrong and an heuristic had to be applied to fix it) Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot
Nicolas Mailhot
2012-Jun-05 07:25 UTC
[Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts
Hi, What we do in Fedora is shipping fallback rules with the font themselves in the same package so if font foo is installed the package also declares to fontconfig it''s an acceptable substitute for bar, but if the user didn''t install foo the system does not waste time processing rules for fonts which are not available. And BTW it''s very dangerous to declare a substitution rule for a popular font, because your substitution font will then be used in lots of contexts and if it''s not as good (design or coverage-wise) as the original font users won''t be happy at all. -- Nicolas Mailhot
BlissSam
2012-Jun-08 11:08 UTC
[Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts
Sorry for the delay of this mail. For I am busy these couple of days. So let us provide a tool to generate fallback rules instead of making user write XML conf on their own from scratch. Also it can generate some other things useful (e.g. preference, anti-alias and so on). And I think the current syntax of fallback rules is so?complicated that I cannot understand--Mapping?specific?to generic, and map generic to specific, and other stuff. I don''t know if what I said right, but I want this?mechanism?to be simpler. Simply allow a method of `bind'' some font families together and tell fontconfig that these fonts are `compatible'', so fontconfig will choose other fonts if one is missing. And the font substitution can be more smart, user can specify whether only to fallback when a font is missing, or to replace whenever that font is installed; also, some users may want to substitute only on screen or when printing. ----------------------------------------> Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 09:25:39 +0200 > Subject: Re: [Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts > From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net > To: m13253 at hotmail.com > CC: akira at tagoh.org; fontconfig at lists.freedesktop.org > > Hi, > > What we do in Fedora is shipping fallback rules with the font themselves in > the same package so if font foo is installed the package also declares to > fontconfig it''s an acceptable substitute for bar, but if the user didn''t > install foo the system does not waste time processing rules for fonts which > are not available. > > And BTW it''s very dangerous to declare a substitution rule for a popular font, > because your substitution font will then be used in lots of contexts and if > it''s not as good (design or coverage-wise) as the original font users won''t be > happy at all. > > -- > Nicolas Mailhot >
Raimund Steger
2012-Jun-08 23:54 UTC
[Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts
BlissSam wrote:> [...] > Mapping specific to generic, and map generic to specific,You summarized a correct way of doing this in a few words -- isn''t that simple enough? Definitely something for distribution maintainers to tackle. As for providing a configuration tool -- the problem I see is: If it supports all of the DTD, it won''t be substantially less complex than editing the XML file by hand. If it however uses a simplified syntax, e. g. only using family equivalence classes or something -- it''ll be one-way, i. e. not fully compatible with existing XML, and what''s more, users might still get unexpected results that they cannot explain if some other rule outmatches one of their families. Of course that doesn''t mean it''s completely unfeasible :-) Didn''t libeasyfc do something similar? (Another option could still be a plain old FAQ to make people easier with the XML or maybe... er... a Wiki.)> And the font substitution can be more smart, user can specify > whether only to fallback when a font is missing, or to replace > whenever that font is installed;I think that would be what <edit mode="append"> vs. <edit mode="prepend"> do.> also, some users may want to substitute only on screen or when > printing.You mean a "media" property like CSS has, to sort out the occasional bitmap font arriving at the printer? Sounds useful, but would depend on application support. Theoretically, applications could already indicate high-DPI targets such as paper by sending a dpi property to fontconfig, which would be >= 600 for printers, and which users could react to in their config. If they don''t do that at the moment (which sounds like a shame but is probably reality), I''m not sure whether they''ll use even another property. Raimund
mpsuzuki at hiroshima-u.ac.jp
2012-Jun-09 12:26 UTC
[Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts
Hi, Sorry for lated participation to the discussion. For first, please let me explain what Japanese experts had ever done. I mention about the relationship between Chinese typeface category name and Japanese one, it does NOT mean that I''m saying as "follow to Japanese classification". On contrally, I want to hear the counter proposal from Chinese experts, to prevent Japanese-specific hooks into fontconfig. -- An organization, TrueType Consortium Japan had ever defined the values of IBM FamilyClass & Panose for Japanese typefaces, for guiding font fallbacks in 1996. Their categorizaton was following: Mincho Class=1, SubClass=5, PanoseFamily=2, PanoseSerif=2 Kyokasho(*) Class=1, SubClass=8, PanoseFamily=2, PanoseSerif=2 Soucho Class=1, SubClass=3, PanoseFamily=2, PanoseSerif=2 Kaku-Gothic Class=8, SubClass=1, PanoseFamily=2, PanoseSerif=11 Maru-Gothic Class=8, SubClass=9, PanoseFamily=2, PanoseSerif=15 Kaisho Class=10, SubClass=7, PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0 Gyousho Class=10, SubClass=6, PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0 Sousho Class=10, SubClass=6, PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0 Reisho Class=10, SubClass=8, PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0 Pen-ji Class=10, SubClass=5, PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0 Edo-moji Class=9, SubClass=2, PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0 Tensho Class=9, SubClass=0, PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=15 Kointai(**) Class=9, SubClass=1, PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0 Pop(Mincho) Class=9, SubClass=3, PanoseFamily=4, PanoseSerif=2 Pop(K-Gothic) Class=9, SubClass=3, PanoseFamily=4, PanoseSerif=11 Pop(M-Gothic) Class=9, SubClass=3, PanoseFamily=4, PanoseSerif=15 I will explain the typeface names if needed, so please post a request. The rough mapping between the names for Chinese typeface classification would be: SungTi/SongTi/MingTi --> Mincho HeiTi --> Gothic (***) FangSong --> Soucho Kaishu --> Kaisho XingShu --> Gyosho CaoShu --> Sousho LiShu --> Reisho ZhuanShu --> Tensho This is based on current Japanese cultural recognizations of typefaces, so the classification is incorrect from the viewpoint of the historical development of the writing systems, and too cursory (e.g. Edo-moji is a name calling various calligraphic styles for different purposes, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edomoji ). (*) Kyokasho is a typeface based on Mincho, designed for the textbooks in the elementary schools. A core charset for the educations in elementary schools are requested to simulate the Kaishu typeface (by government), to prevent the confusion by seeing different glyphic shapes between Mincho and Kaishu. (**) Kointai is a name saying "a typeface looking like old sealing stamp". It sounds aslike if it were post-Qin seal scripts, but the glyphs of the products in Japanese markets with this name look like as "damaged (or poorly stone-rubbed) LiShu". (***) Often Japanese Sans-Serif typefaces are distinguished by the edge shape of the end of strokes; if the angles are left at the end (looking like the rectangle), they are called as Kaku-Gothic - if the edge is blunted/rounded, they are called as Maru-Gothic. However, there is a remarkable tendency that Maru-Gothic typefaces are designed to be more geometrically and puffed, so a confusion between Kaku- and Maru-Gothic is becoming popular gradually. -- As I''ve written before, I think the variety of the typeface families bundled to the liberated (e.g. GNU/Linux), or the minimum configuration of the personal computers (e.g. Microsoft Windows without Microsoft Office, nor additional language pack) would not be so large. In Japan, a pair of Serif & Sans Serif (called Mincho & Gothic) is recognized as the minimum configuration. Other fonts, Rounded-Gothic, Kaisho, Kyokasho, Gyosho, Sousho etc are quite exceptional. Even on Microsoft Windows, the bare operating systems do not have. Although Microsoft Office bundles these typefaces, it is rare that the office documents using them. Thus, Japanese popular scenario of font substitution during the cross platform document interchange would be the fallback from non-basic families (Rounded-Gothic, Kaisho, etc) to basic families (Gothic, Mincho). I think most Japanese people do not complain that the substitution from Kaisho to Mincho. # I think Japanese publishing using Kaisho fonts are quite few. Thus, the fine granurarity classifications of Kaisho, Gyosho, Sousho are not discussed, because they are not recognized as essential. Although Kaishu by Wang Xishin and by Yang Zhenqing show remarkable contrast, the computer users having 2 different Kaishu fonts for them were expected to be quite quite few. In addition, because of the difference of the user community, the charset supported by the fonts are often different. The basic typefaces, Mincho & Gothic are always exposed to the pressure to wider charset. But such pressure to non-basic typefaces, like Kisho, is not so strong. -- For automatic, zero-configured, or hardwired font substitution of Chinese fonts, following discussions are expected. 1) the definition of the basic categories of the fonts. if what kind of features are required for the category, it should be noted. for example, if a system has only 2 typefaces, Mincho and Gothic, Gothic is always designed to be "heavier" than Mincho, because Gothic is basically used for the titles etc. 2) the investigation of the instances of the basic categories that are commonly availbable on the users environment. about the Microsoft products, http://www.microsoft.com/typography/fonts/family.aspx would be good resource to check if the fonts are avaible in the minimum configuration, or the users must have some extra products. 3) the discussion of the mapping from the basic categories to the instances. For example, if BeiWeiKaiShu fonts are missing, it should be substituted by other (non-Beiwei) Kaishu? Or, fallback to FangSong is better? If there is any referential materials already, please let me know. Regards, mpsuzuki On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 19:08:02 +0800 BlissSam <m13253 at hotmail.com> wrote:> >Sorry for the delay of this mail. For I am busy these couple of days. > >So let us provide a tool to generate fallback rules instead of making >user write XML conf on their own from scratch. Also it can generate >some other things useful (e.g. preference, anti-alias and so on). > >Simply allow a method of `bind'' some font families together and tell >fontconfig that these fonts are `compatible'', so fontconfig will choose >other fonts if one is missing. > >And the font substitution can be more smart, user can specify whether >only to fallback when a font is missing, or to replace whenever that >font is installed; also, some users may want to substitute only on >screen or when printing. > >---------------------------------------- >> Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 09:25:39 +0200 >> Subject: Re: [Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution >for CJK fonts > From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net >> To: m13253 at hotmail.com >> CC: akira at tagoh.org; fontconfig at lists.freedesktop.org >> >> Hi, >> >> What we do in Fedora is shipping fallback rules with the font >themselves in > the same package so if font foo is installed the >package also declares to > fontconfig it''s an acceptable substitute for >bar, but if the user didn''t > install foo the system does not waste >time processing rules for fonts which > are not available. >> >> And BTW it''s very dangerous to declare a substitution rule for a >popular font, > because your substitution font will then be used in >lots of contexts and if > it''s not as good (design or coverage-wise) as >the original font users won''t be > happy at all. >> >> -- >> Nicolas Mailhot >> > >_______________________________________________ >Fontconfig mailing list >Fontconfig at lists.freedesktop.org >http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/fontconfig
Nicolas Mailhot
2012-Jun-10 07:30 UTC
[Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts
Le Ven 8 juin 2012 13:05, BlissSam a ?crit :> > Sorry for the delay of this mail. For I am busy these couple of days. > > So let us provide a tool to generate fallback rules instead of making user > write XML conf on their own from scratch.Well we''re not making the user write them frow scratch, me make the packager write them and they are installed with the font files automatically.> Also it can generate some other things useful (e.g. preference, anti-alias and > so on). > > And I think the current syntax of fallback rules is so complicated that I > cannot understandThat''s how it works now an why we had to document it Fedora-side. Now if you add up all the possible effects a user could want, I''m sure you''ll never end up with something simple (at best a maze of toggles). Though fontconfig syntax could probably be improved for the most frequent use cases, but that requires careful design -- Nicolas Mailhot
Raimund Steger
2012-Jun-10 11:11 UTC
[Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts
Raimund Steger wrote:> BlissSam wrote: >> [...] >> Mapping specific to generic, and map generic to specific, > > You summarized a correct way of doing this in a few words > [...]NB. I figure as an easy way of generating such rules you could use an XSLT to support some bogus group tag like: ----8<------------- <?xml version="1.0"?> <xsl:stylesheet version="1.0" xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform"> <xsl:template match="fontconfig"> <fontconfig> <xsl:for-each select="*"> <xsl:choose> <xsl:when test="name(.)=''familygroup''"> <xsl:for-each select="family"> <alias> <family><xsl:value-of select="."/></family> <default> <family><xsl:value-of select="../@name"/></family> </default> </alias> </xsl:for-each> <alias> <family><xsl:value-of select="@name"/></family> <prefer> <xsl:for-each select="family"> <family><xsl:value-of select="."/></family> </xsl:for-each> </prefer> </alias> </xsl:when> <xsl:otherwise> <xsl:copy-of select="."/> </xsl:otherwise> </xsl:choose> </xsl:for-each> </fontconfig> </xsl:template> </xsl:stylesheet> ----8<------------- This would allow you to use: <familygroup name="Testgroup"> <family>Test1</family> <family>Test2</family> </familygroup> and apply it with xsltproc familygroup.xslt fonts.conf.in \ | xmllint --format - > fonts.conf Aside from that, I''ve just taken a look at the 65-fonts-persian.conf file Behdad mentioned. Actually I don''t think having something similar for the most common CJK fonts would be that much of a problem, be it just to balance things out :-) Raimund
Akira TAGOH
2012-Jun-11 02:11 UTC
[Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts
On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 at 8:54 AM, Raimund Steger <rs at mytum.de> wrote:> BlissSam wrote: >> >> [...] >> Mapping specific to generic, and map generic to specific, > > > You summarized a correct way of doing this in a few words -- isn''t that > simple enough? Definitely something for distribution maintainers to tackle.Right. in most cases, so complicated rules isn''t needed for the personal preferences. see what fonts-tweak-tool (and libeasyfc) do. it generates the xml file that is simple enough. it should works enough for that purpose.> As for providing a configuration tool -- the problem I see is: If it > supports all of the DTD, it won''t be substantially less complex than editing > the XML file by hand. If it however uses a simplified syntax, e. g. only > using family equivalence classes or something -- it''ll be one-way, i. e. not > fully compatible with existing XML, and what''s more, users might still get > unexpected results that they cannot explain if some other rule outmatches > one of their families.Right. I''m thinking of it for packagers mainly to provide the sort of templates. I don''t think there are perfect solution. if they want to do complicated things, they should read documents and understand how to use it.> (Another option could still be a plain old FAQ to make people easier with > the XML or maybe... er... a Wiki.)If it helps, yeah, I think it''s a good idea. -- Akira TAGOH
Akira TAGOH
2012-Jun-11 02:22 UTC
[Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts
Thanks for sharing the information. that would be useful if we supports the panose and sFamilyClass in the future. I''m listening. Well, I have no concrete plans to do it so far though. I could have some testing in libeasyfc first and port it to fontconfig later perhaps if it''s really useful. On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 at 9:26 PM, <mpsuzuki at hiroshima-u.ac.jp> wrote:> Hi, > > Sorry for lated participation to the discussion. For first, > please let me explain what Japanese experts had ever done. > I mention about the relationship between Chinese typeface > category name and Japanese one, it does NOT mean that I''m > saying as "follow to Japanese classification". On contrally, > I want to hear the counter proposal from Chinese experts, > to prevent Japanese-specific hooks into fontconfig. > > -- > > An organization, TrueType Consortium Japan had ever defined > the values of IBM FamilyClass & Panose for Japanese typefaces, > for guiding font fallbacks in 1996. Their categorizaton was > following: > > Mincho ? ? ? ? ?Class=1, ? ? ? ?SubClass=5, ? ? PanoseFamily=2, PanoseSerif=2 > Kyokasho(*) ? ? Class=1, ? ? ? ?SubClass=8, ? ? PanoseFamily=2, PanoseSerif=2 > Soucho ? ? ? ? ?Class=1, ? ? ? ?SubClass=3, ? ? PanoseFamily=2, PanoseSerif=2 > > Kaku-Gothic ? ? Class=8, ? ? ? ?SubClass=1, ? ? PanoseFamily=2, PanoseSerif=11 > Maru-Gothic ? ? Class=8, ? ? ? ?SubClass=9, ? ? PanoseFamily=2, PanoseSerif=15 > > Kaisho ? ? ? ? ?Class=10, ? ? ? SubClass=7, ? ? PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0 > Gyousho ? ? ? ? Class=10, ? ? ? SubClass=6, ? ? PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0 > Sousho ? ? ? ? ?Class=10, ? ? ? SubClass=6, ? ? PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0 > Reisho ? ? ? ? ?Class=10, ? ? ? SubClass=8, ? ? PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0 > Pen-ji ? ? ? ? ?Class=10, ? ? ? SubClass=5, ? ? PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0 > > Edo-moji ? ? ? ?Class=9, ? ? ? ?SubClass=2, ? ? PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0 > Tensho ? ? ? ? ?Class=9, ? ? ? ?SubClass=0, ? ? PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=15 > Kointai(**) ? ? Class=9, ? ? ? ?SubClass=1, ? ? PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0 > > Pop(Mincho) ? ? Class=9, ? ? ? ?SubClass=3, ? ? PanoseFamily=4, PanoseSerif=2 > Pop(K-Gothic) ? Class=9, ? ? ? ?SubClass=3, ? ? PanoseFamily=4, PanoseSerif=11 > Pop(M-Gothic) ? Class=9, ? ? ? ?SubClass=3, ? ? PanoseFamily=4, PanoseSerif=15 > > I will explain the typeface names if needed, so please post > a request. The rough mapping between the names for Chinese > typeface classification would be: > > SungTi/SongTi/MingTi --> Mincho > HeiTi --> Gothic (***) > FangSong --> Soucho > Kaishu --> Kaisho > XingShu --> Gyosho > CaoShu --> Sousho > LiShu --> Reisho > ZhuanShu --> Tensho > > This is based on current Japanese cultural recognizations of > typefaces, so the classification is incorrect from the viewpoint > of the historical development of the writing systems, and too > cursory (e.g. Edo-moji is a name calling various calligraphic > styles for different purposes, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edomoji ). > > > (*) Kyokasho is a typeface based on Mincho, designed for the > textbooks in the elementary schools. A core charset for the > educations in elementary schools are requested to simulate > the Kaishu typeface (by government), to prevent the confusion > by seeing different glyphic shapes between Mincho and Kaishu. > > (**) Kointai is a name saying "a typeface looking like old > sealing stamp". It sounds aslike if it were post-Qin seal > scripts, but the glyphs of the products in Japanese markets > with this name look like as "damaged (or poorly stone-rubbed) > LiShu". > > (***) Often Japanese Sans-Serif typefaces are distinguished by > the edge shape of the end of strokes; if the angles are left > at the end (looking like the rectangle), they are called as > Kaku-Gothic - if the edge is blunted/rounded, they are called > as Maru-Gothic. However, there is a remarkable tendency that > Maru-Gothic typefaces are designed to be more geometrically > and puffed, so a confusion between Kaku- and Maru-Gothic is > becoming popular gradually. > > -- > > As I''ve written before, I think the variety of the typeface > families bundled to the liberated (e.g. GNU/Linux), or the > minimum configuration of the personal computers (e.g. Microsoft > Windows without Microsoft Office, nor additional language pack) > would not be so large. In Japan, a pair of Serif & Sans Serif > (called Mincho & Gothic) is recognized as the minimum configuration. > Other fonts, Rounded-Gothic, Kaisho, Kyokasho, Gyosho, Sousho > etc are quite exceptional. Even on Microsoft Windows, the bare > operating systems do not have. Although Microsoft Office bundles > these typefaces, it is rare that the office documents using them. > > Thus, Japanese popular scenario of font substitution during > the cross platform document interchange would be the fallback > from non-basic families (Rounded-Gothic, Kaisho, etc) to > basic families (Gothic, Mincho). I think most Japanese people > do not complain that the substitution from Kaisho to Mincho. > > # I think Japanese publishing using Kaisho fonts are quite few. > > Thus, the fine granurarity classifications of Kaisho, Gyosho, > Sousho are not discussed, because they are not recognized as > essential. Although Kaishu by Wang Xishin and by Yang Zhenqing > show remarkable contrast, the computer users having 2 different > Kaishu fonts for them were expected to be quite quite few. > > In addition, because of the difference of the user community, > the charset supported by the fonts are often different. > The basic typefaces, Mincho & Gothic are always exposed to > the pressure to wider charset. But such pressure to non-basic > typefaces, like Kisho, is not so strong. > > -- > > For automatic, zero-configured, or hardwired font substitution > of Chinese fonts, following discussions are expected. > > 1) the definition of the basic categories of the fonts. > ? if what kind of features are required for the category, > ? it should be noted. > > ? for example, if a system has only 2 typefaces, Mincho and > ? Gothic, Gothic is always designed to be "heavier" than > ? Mincho, because Gothic is basically used for the titles etc. > > 2) the investigation of the instances of the basic categories > ? that are commonly availbable on the users environment. > ? about the Microsoft products, > ? http://www.microsoft.com/typography/fonts/family.aspx > ? would be good resource to check if the fonts are avaible > ? in the minimum configuration, or the users must have some > ? extra products. > > 3) the discussion of the mapping from the basic categories to > ? the instances. For example, if BeiWeiKaiShu fonts are missing, > ? it should be substituted by other (non-Beiwei) Kaishu? Or, > ? fallback to FangSong is better? > > If there is any referential materials already, please let me > know. > > Regards, > mpsuzuki > > On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 19:08:02 +0800 > BlissSam <m13253 at hotmail.com> wrote: > >> >>Sorry for the delay of this mail. For I am busy these couple of days. >> >>So let us provide a tool to generate fallback rules instead of making >>user write XML conf on their own from scratch. Also it can generate >>some other things useful (e.g. preference, anti-alias and so on). >> >>Simply allow a method of `bind'' some font families together and tell >>fontconfig that these fonts are `compatible'', so fontconfig will choose >>other fonts if one is missing. >> >>And the font substitution can be more smart, user can specify whether >>only to fallback when a font is missing, or to replace whenever that >>font is installed; also, some users may want to substitute only on >>screen or when printing. >> >>---------------------------------------- >>> Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 09:25:39 +0200 >>> Subject: Re: [Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution >>for CJK fonts > From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net >>> To: m13253 at hotmail.com >>> CC: akira at tagoh.org; fontconfig at lists.freedesktop.org >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> What we do in Fedora is shipping fallback rules with the font >>themselves in > the same package so if font foo is installed the >>package also declares to > fontconfig it''s an acceptable substitute for >>bar, but if the user didn''t > install foo the system does not waste >>time processing rules for fonts which > are not available. >>> >>> And BTW it''s very dangerous to declare a substitution rule for a >>popular font, > because your substitution font will then be used in >>lots of contexts and if > it''s not as good (design or coverage-wise) as >>the original font users won''t be > happy at all. >>> >>> -- >>> Nicolas Mailhot >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Fontconfig mailing list >>Fontconfig at lists.freedesktop.org >>http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/fontconfig > _______________________________________________ > Fontconfig mailing list > Fontconfig at lists.freedesktop.org > http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/fontconfig-- Akira TAGOH