Josselin Mouette wrote:> cga wrote: > >> I am having major difficulties trying to configure fonts on a linux >> Debian/testing system. >> >> The main cause of the problem appears to be that gtk & kde >> applications now use fontconfig and everything relative to fonts >> becomes very difficult to configure if you do not want to use any of >> these two environments. I am unsure if this list is a suitable place >> to ask for advice on these matters..? > > > This has nothing to do with GTK+ nor with KDE. Maybe you can read > /usr/share/doc/fontconfig/README.Debian first, and then come back if > you have other questions. > > Regards,Thank you very much for your kind reply. I had read the above document - where I first learned about fontconfig, incidentally. I will follow your recommendation and do some further reading and possibly post a followup clarifying my "main cause of the problem.. etc." above. Thanks, Chris.
On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 22:35:07 -0500 cga <cga2001@softhome.net> wrote:> I am having major difficulties trying to configure fonts on a linux > Debian/testing system. > > The main cause of the problem appears to be that gtk & kde applications > now use fontconfig and everything relative to fonts becomes very > difficult to configure if you do not want to use any of these two > environments.What exactly are you trying to do? If anything, using fontconfig simplified things. I don''t use KDE or Gnome either, maybe I can help. -- Ciprian Popovici
Ciprian Popovici wrote:>On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 22:35:07 -0500 cga <cga2001@softhome.net> wrote: > > >>I am having major difficulties trying to configure fonts on a linux >>Debian/testing system. >> >>The main cause of the problem appears to be that gtk & kde applications >>now use fontconfig and everything relative to fonts becomes very >>difficult to configure if you do not want to use any of these two >>environments. >> >> > >What exactly are you trying to do? If anything, using fontconfig simplified >things. I don''t use KDE or Gnome either, maybe I can help. > > >How did it simplify things? Seems to make it easier installing .ttf fonts? Otherwise I''m not sure - cf. my other post..
Josselin Mouette wrote:> cga wrote: > >> I am having major difficulties trying to configure fonts on a linux >> Debian/testing system. >> >> The main cause of the problem appears to be that gtk & kde >> applications now use fontconfig and everything relative to fonts >> becomes very difficult to configure if you do not want to use any of >> these two environments. I am unsure if this list is a suitable place >> to ask for advice on these matters..? > > > This has nothing to do with GTK+ nor with KDE. Maybe you can read > /usr/share/doc/fontconfig/README.Debian first, and then come back if > you have other questions. > > Regards,What I meant was that the extra features provided by fontconfig (aa.. auto-hinting..) add more variables to the text rendering equation and it has now become almost impossible to tweak fonts w/o access to an interactive tool such as the one provided by the gnome & kde desktops. It''s no longer just a matter of installing a decent screen font and editing a few files to specify the font, font size & fontstyle to GTK/KDE apps like it w/ older releases of XFree. Naturally if you already know which /etc/fonts/local.conf settings are optimal for your display entering the xml is trivial. But the point I''m arguing is that for someone who does not want/need the features provided by fontconfig it makes matters a lot more difficult - especially if you are not a gnome/KDE user.
I am having major difficulties trying to configure fonts on a linux Debian/testing system. The main cause of the problem appears to be that gtk & kde applications now use fontconfig and everything relative to fonts becomes very difficult to configure if you do not want to use any of these two environments. I am unsure if this list is a suitable place to ask for advice on these matters..? Thanks, cga
John Thacker wrote:>On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 08:44:24PM -0500, cga wrote: > > >>What''s so hard to understand? If "tweaking was impossible" .. then no >>tweaking tool was necessary.. alright? >> >>Before the anti-aliasing craze the only things that were "tweakable" >>were the font "family" and simple variations such as pointsize.. style.. >>You didn''t need to be a screen font expert to understand these concepts >>and figure out how to achieve the results you wanted. Granted, you had >>to track down the different files where fonts were referenced and modify >>them one at a time but conceptually the changes were absolutely trivial. >> >> > >Except that you were pretty much screwed in the old way if you needed to >deal with multiple different languages with different scripts simultaneously. > >Another essential point I had not thought about yet :-( Languages is another hobby of mine but in this instance I was so frustrated at not being able to get plain ascii to be rendered to my liking that I really had not given other scripts much of a thought. But then I only need the stuff from Western Europe at this point so that shouldn''t be too hard. Pretty much everything I can decipher can be represented w/ the latin-1 charset..>I easily got a *much* better looking desktop without doing anything, simply >because I don''t have to constantly change my font configuration to in >order to work with all the different languages I use, and to avoid, e.g., >having to use the crappy Latin characters from the font that has the >best Japanese characters. >I get your point. I had noticed in mozilla for instance that latin characters on Japanese, Chinese or Korean pages were barely legible. But since my knowledge of these scripts is limited to about a dozen Chinese characters I assumed that everything I was not familiar with was of the same poor quality as the latin characters. But since they did not make much sense to me anyway, obviouslythis did not affect me.. So I took a look at wikepedia''s Japanese page a minute ago and apart from that detestable anti-aliasing it''s obvious that the Japanese characters are quite legible. With a bit of patience I could make exact copies of any of them on a a piece of paper. On the other hand if I did not know from the context that the blur between co- and -ents in "if you have any co--ents" was most certainly two m''s in succession I would be unable to replicate those signs or since this is variable-width even determine that there are two characters instead of one or three.. Food for thought..> I also don''t have to run special applications >and terminals which are worse in most respects and have fewer features, >but are the only ones which really do internationalization properly. > >Some of the complaints about Vera Sans and the work done with changing >Debian and others to Verdana and other fonts are mostly complaints about >the lack of truly free high quality fonts, too. >Maybe the problem is with the user community at large. I find it hard to believe the number of screenshots of lovingly crafted desktops with layer upon layer of wonderful 3D graphics in 32-bit color whose general appearance is ruined by atrocious fonts. If even the more artistically-inclined users don''t care about the looks of their fonts there''s little chance anybody anywhere will put any money, time, energy, and whatever else it takes into creating a high quality free font family. Likewise there doesn''t seem to be much demand for hi-res displays at a price that the average computer user can afford. Yet at 300+ dpi I have a feeling that many of the problems concerning font rendering on computer screens would evaporate.>John Thacker > >Thanks John.. I''m beginning to understand these aspects a little better. And what''s more the replies I received in this thread have rather whetted my appetite and I''m eager to learn more in this area.
Josselin Mouette wrote:> cga wrote: > >> What I meant was that the extra features provided by fontconfig >> (aa.. auto-hinting..) add more variables to the text rendering >> equation and it has now become almost impossible to tweak fonts w/o >> access to an interactive tool such as the one provided by the gnome & >> kde desktops. It''s no longer just a matter of installing a decent >> screen font and editing a few files to specify the font, font size & >> fontstyle to GTK/KDE apps like it w/ older releases of XFree. >> Naturally if you already know which /etc/fonts/local.conf settings >> are optimal for your display entering the xml is trivial. But the >> point I''m arguing is that for someone who does not want/need the >> features provided by fontconfig it makes matters a lot more >> difficult - especially if you are not a gnome/KDE user. > > > I really don''t understand. You complain about being unable to tweak > things without a graphical tool, and express your preference of the > former situation, when tweaking was impossible.What''s so hard to understand? If "tweaking was impossible" .. then no tweaking tool was necessary.. alright? Before the anti-aliasing craze the only things that were "tweakable" were the font "family" and simple variations such as pointsize.. style.. You didn''t need to be a screen font expert to understand these concepts and figure out how to achieve the results you wanted. Granted, you had to track down the different files where fonts were referenced and modify them one at a time but conceptually the changes were absolutely trivial. With the added xft/fontconfig layer this tweaking business has become considerably more difficult. If you are a strict kde or gnome user you may be able to obtain optimal results fairly quickly.. Actually where gnome is concerned I''m not even too sure about this.. given the large numbers of screenshots that I have seen where I can recognize the coyote-ugly smeared outlines of our old friend Vera Sans.. Sure.. being such an ugly font to start with it looks a bit better after you turn on anti-aliasing. With cross-utilization - eg. running gtk apps on a kde desktop - things become a little more difficult.. Eventually, I found that whenever gnome is active a gnome-settings daemon transparently takes care of preferences and this adds yet another layer to the font configuration riddle.. When gnome is not around GTK apps apparently fall back to what''s specified in gtkrc files.. Explains why some of the font tweaking I was doing in gnome was not propagated to GTK+ apps executing under another environment.. :-) But for those who use another desktop and who happen to find the "smudges-by-default" look brought about by Xft etc.. unacceptable.. it seems that font configuration in ''X'' has become very difficult indeed. nota bene: I am not complaining. Just reporting. Hope it helps.
Ciprian Popovici wrote:>On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:25:57 -0500 cga <cga2001@softhome.net> wrote: > > >>What I meant was that the extra features provided by fontconfig (aa.. >>auto-hinting..) add more variables to the text rendering equation and it >>has now become almost impossible to tweak fonts w/o access to an >>interactive tool such as the one provided by the gnome & kde desktops. >> >> > >It''s really not that bad. >You''re quite right. Once you know what can be done on your hardware and how to do it it''s not that hard even without interactive feedback. otoh.. when I first saw the Window Maker that resulted from my Debian install and compared it to what I normally use.. I was in shock.. Giant leap backward was my first reaction. The problem is that I knew little about fonts and next to nothing about recent developments in the font rendering area. I could not find any high-level introductory document - most of what I know about fonts in X is from the O''Reilly manuals that date back to the late 1980''s.. last revised in 1993.. so I had to learn all this from the ground up.. bits and pieces I found online.. obsolete howto''s.. README files.. man pages.. comments in config files.. Maybe I should have concerned myself more with just the looks of my fonts and concluded that since my older system''s fonts looked perfectly clean on this hardware the newer one could be persuaded to look likewise. That would probably have been my approach if I had been upgrading from Woody to Sarge - eg. But because I was switching from RedHat to Debian at the same time I was upgrading to a more current version of X I was not able to think about this in a completely rational way. My reaction was a bit along the lines.. "now because of this stupid anti-aliasing crap they have broken X badly.. and I''m not going to be able to do anything about it.." Initially of course.. Then I progressed to ".. now that AA is fashionable.. politically correct.. they''ve made it almost impossible to get rid of it without making lots of changes that will probably ruin my Debian installation for good".. And since I know so little about Debian.. since I did not know how/where to make the changes.. and naturally being very slow finding how to make changes in an environment I was not familiar with.. not to mention that I was worrying all the time that I could not even half guess at the implications of what I was changing and hence was probably going to break something.. Well sure enough.. after all the tampering and contortions, everything GTK is broken in subtle ways and the gnome desktop in not-so-subtle ways. I''ve removed and reinstalled gnome a couple of times to no or little effect and I am now thinking of removing XFree86 completely and starting over.> I don''t have the full Gnome, just the lib >packages needed to make GTK apps work. >yes.. that was plan ''A''. :-)>I have KDE because it''s monolitic >and you get everything anyway. >about 300Meg of stuff that I''m never going to use.>So I didn''t do anything with Gnome, except edit my ~/.gtkrc-2.0 and >~/.gtkrc and specify the font I want (my favorite is also Verdana): > ># gtk 2 - ~/.gtkrc-2.0 >style "default" { font_name = "Verdana 10" } ># gtk 1 - ~/.gtkrc >style "default" { font = "-*-verdana-medium-r-*-*-12-*-*-*-*-*-iso8859-2" } > >I tried this but for somereason I never got it to work. Maybe there were problems with the syntax and I didn''t look for possible error messages in the right places.. Or maybe it clashed with something else in my setup. I''ll give this method another shot after I''ve cleaned up GTK+.. Another method when the gnome desktop is installed is to start the gnome-settings-daemon when you start you X session. You can even do it on the fly - ig. from the command line.. So I''ve added it to my Window Maker autostart file. But since gnome on this system is damaged it has some rather unpleasant side-effects.>For KDE I ran kcontrol, went to font settings, chose Verdana all over the >place, checked "use antialiasing" and chose a range to exclude. > >Here''s my ~/.fonts.conf. It will tweak various hinting and anti-aliasing >global values, as well as DPI. It will disable anti-aliasing betwen 9-16 >pixels and 8-14 points. Adjust as needed. >Pretty much what I did. Everything KDE looks good. So before I remove KDE I must remember to save the kderc (?) files in a safe place.>After you do the above, the only place you need to keep up anymore is just >~/.fonts.conf. You can do interesting stuff, like adjust your DPI, tweak >fonts individually or alias ugly fonts to good looking ones. >I''ll look into this. A very good opportunity to learn about the xml way of doing things. Thanks much for comments.
Le mercredi 16 f?vrier 2005 ? 20:55 -0500, cga a ?crit :> Josselin Mouette wrote: > > >There''s a very good GUI for defoma, named dfontmgr. It makes it easy > >installing fonts by yourself. > > > > > Can dfontmgr be used to change the widget/dialog fonts (font family, > font style, font size..) for GTK+.. QT etc..?No, it only manages the fonts installed on the system and the access of applications to these fonts. GTK+ 1.2 and Xlib applications can access them if x-ttcidfont-conf is installed and configured. -- .''''`. Josselin Mouette /\./\ : :'' : josselin.mouette@ens-lyon.org `. `'' joss@debian.org `- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:25:57 -0500 cga <cga2001@softhome.net> wrote:> What I meant was that the extra features provided by fontconfig (aa.. > auto-hinting..) add more variables to the text rendering equation and it > has now become almost impossible to tweak fonts w/o access to an > interactive tool such as the one provided by the gnome & kde desktops.It''s really not that bad. I don''t have the full Gnome, just the lib packages needed to make GTK apps work. I have KDE because it''s monolitic and you get everything anyway. So I didn''t do anything with Gnome, except edit my ~/.gtkrc-2.0 and ~/.gtkrc and specify the font I want (my favorite is also Verdana): # gtk 2 - ~/.gtkrc-2.0 style "default" { font_name = "Verdana 10" } # gtk 1 - ~/.gtkrc style "default" { font = "-*-verdana-medium-r-*-*-12-*-*-*-*-*-iso8859-2" } For KDE I ran kcontrol, went to font settings, chose Verdana all over the place, checked "use antialiasing" and chose a range to exclude. Here''s my ~/.fonts.conf. It will tweak various hinting and anti-aliasing global values, as well as DPI. It will disable anti-aliasing betwen 9-16 pixels and 8-14 points. Adjust as needed. After you do the above, the only place you need to keep up anymore is just ~/.fonts.conf. You can do interesting stuff, like adjust your DPI, tweak fonts individually or alias ugly fonts to good looking ones. <?xml version="1.0"?> <!DOCTYPE fontconfig SYSTEM "fonts.dtd"> <fontconfig> <match target="pattern" > <edit mode="assign" name="antialias" > <bool>true</bool> </edit> <edit mode="assign" name="hinting" > <bool>true</bool> </edit> <edit mode="assign" name="autohint" > <bool>false</bool> </edit> <edit mode="assign" name="dpi" > <int>83</int> </edit> </match> <match target="font" > <test compare="more" name="pixelsize" qual="any" > <double>9</double> </test> <test compare="less" name="pixelsize" qual="any" > <double>16</double> </test> <edit mode="assign" name="antialias" > <bool>false</bool> </edit> </match> <match target="font" > <test compare="more" name="size" qual="any" > <double>8</double> </test> <test compare="less" name="size" qual="any" > <double>14</double> </test> <edit mode="assign" name="antialias" > <bool>false</bool> </edit> </match> </fontconfig> -- Ciprian Popovici
On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 09:25:32PM -0500, cga wrote:> Ambrose Li wrote: > > >I share the same feelings. It took me *days* > > > you must''ve cheated.. like working full-time.. round-the clock.. or > something..Yes, I cheated, sort of. Someone helped me out of my puzzlement on an IRC channel; if I had not been helped (by telling me my fontconfig installation is broken, so to say), I would have spent considerably more time figuring out what went wrong. And I worked round-the-clock too, sort of.> It''s already taken me *weeks* and I''m far from done.. :-)I''m still wondering how to properly make fontconfig do the right thing w.r.t. Chinese fonts, esp. "sans serif" fonts, or mixing fonts from different scripts. It seems that it likes to either use a "kai" font (which really is italic roman, not sans serif, according to Western typography rules) or a Japanese/Korean font for sans serif. I currently hard-code font names into .gtkrc-2.0, which works, but doesn''t do the right thing when I have a bunch of stuff together that is a mix of simplified Chinese, traditional Chinese, and Japanese (say). How to combine Chinese + English fonts is also still a mystery to me (in that I have figured out how to do it but cannot understand why it has to be done that way...) So I guess I''m also "far from done", only that I have already given up, since it''s good enough for everyday use :-) Best regards, -- Ambrose LI Cheuk-Wing <a.c.li@ieee.org> http://ada.dhs.org/~acli/
I share the same feelings. It took me *days* to figure out how to configure fontconfig when I was forced to switch over. Before I figured out that things could be tweaked (and how to tweak them), I was actually complaining that fonts had become much uglier than before. Of course, now I''m ok with fontconfig... :-) But on a Debian system there is the extra variable of defoma too: good for prepackaged fonts, but a real hassle for self- installed fonts. On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 07:25:57PM -0500, cga wrote:> > What I meant was that the extra features provided by fontconfig (aa.. > auto-hinting..) add more variables to the text rendering equation and it > has now become almost impossible to tweak fonts w/o access to an > interactive tool such as the one provided by the gnome & kde desktops. > It''s no longer just a matter of installing a decent screen font and > editing a few files to specify the font, font size & fontstyle to > GTK/KDE apps like it w/ older releases of XFree. Naturally if you > already know which /etc/fonts/local.conf settings are optimal for your > display entering the xml is trivial. But the point I''m arguing is that > for someone who does not want/need the features provided by fontconfig > it makes matters a lot more difficult - especially if you are not a > gnome/KDE user.
On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 10:48:24PM -0500, John Thacker wrote:> <shrug> Perhaps Owen Taylor''s patches for the default > fonts.config should be considered for the main tree, > especially if Kaiti is so deprecated. > > Of course, a document that''s a mix of Chinese scripts and > Japanese is always going to be tricky if the document doesn''t > have clear language tags in any way. Especially since many > Japanese users prefer using Japanese fonts and scripts for > Chinese, due to different character styles.I wouldn''t say Kaiti is deprecated, but it just isn''t sans serif (it has subtle round serifs), and between it and Songti, Songti might be a little bit more suitable as a fallback for sans serif simply because Songti has no italic angle so it matches a little better with the English fonts. IMHO the Chinese are less likely to have strong preferences for the characters styles, so using a Japanese font is likely ok. It''s just when there is a mix, what will actually be displayed seems to be very unpredictable and I don''t seem to be able to find any docs that explains what has to be done (and how exactly) to make it more predictable. Best regards, -- Ambrose LI Cheuk-Wing <a.c.li@ieee.org> http://ada.dhs.org/~acli/
Josselin Mouette wrote:>There''s a very good GUI for defoma, named dfontmgr. It makes it easy >installing fonts by yourself. > >Can dfontmgr be used to change the widget/dialog fonts (font family, font style, font size..) for GTK+.. QT etc..?
On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 08:44:24PM -0500, cga wrote:> > What''s so hard to understand? If "tweaking was impossible" .. then no > tweaking tool was necessary.. alright? > > Before the anti-aliasing craze the only things that were "tweakable" > were the font "family" and simple variations such as pointsize.. style.. > You didn''t need to be a screen font expert to understand these concepts > and figure out how to achieve the results you wanted. Granted, you had > to track down the different files where fonts were referenced and modify > them one at a time but conceptually the changes were absolutely trivial.Except that you were pretty much screwed in the old way if you needed to deal with multiple different languages with different scripts simultaneously. I easily got a *much* better looking desktop without doing anything, simply because I don''t have to constantly change my font configuration to in order to work with all the different languages I use, and to avoid, e.g., having to use the crappy Latin characters from the font that has the best Japanese characters. I also don''t have to run special applications and terminals which are worse in most respects and have fewer features, but are the only ones which really do internationalization properly. Some of the complaints about Vera Sans and the work done with changing Debian and others to Verdana and other fonts are mostly complaints about the lack of truly free high quality fonts, too. John Thacker -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/fontconfig/attachments/20050216/b6f53719/attachment.pgp
On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 10:39:02PM -0500, Ambrose Li wrote:> > I''m still wondering how to properly make fontconfig do the right > thing w.r.t. Chinese fonts, esp. "sans serif" fonts, or mixing fonts > from different scripts. It seems that it likes to either use a "kai" > font (which really is italic roman, not sans serif, according to > Western typography rules) or a Japanese/Korean font for sans serif. > I currently hard-code font names into .gtkrc-2.0, which works, but > doesn''t do the right thing when I have a bunch of stuff together that > is a mix of simplified Chinese, traditional Chinese, and Japanese (say).Well, /etc/fonts/fonts.conf defaults to using a Kai font for sans-serif. However, RedHat patches their packages to prefer using Sung-ti and Ming-ti fonts for sans-serif, and never use Kai-ti. It all depends on what''s set for your preferred aliases there. <shrug> Perhaps Owen Taylor''s patches for the default fonts.config should be considered for the main tree, especially if Kaiti is so deprecated. Of course, a document that''s a mix of Chinese scripts and Japanese is always going to be tricky if the document doesn''t have clear language tags in any way. Especially since many Japanese users prefer using Japanese fonts and scripts for Chinese, due to different character styles. John Thacker -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/fontconfig/attachments/20050216/ec6b749c/attachment.pgp
Le samedi 12 f?vrier 2005 ? 21:56 -0500, Ambrose Li a ?crit :> But on a Debian system there is the extra variable of defoma > too: good for prepackaged fonts, but a real hassle for self- > installed fonts.There''s a very good GUI for defoma, named dfontmgr. It makes it easy installing fonts by yourself. Regards, -- .''''`. Josselin Mouette /\./\ : :'' : josselin.mouette@ens-lyon.org `. `'' joss@debian.org `- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message =?ISO-8859-1?Q?num=E9riquement?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_sign=E9e?Url : http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/fontconfig/attachments/20050213/8dd8a944/attachment.pgp
Ambrose Li wrote:>I share the same feelings. It took me *days* >you must''ve cheated.. like working full-time.. round-the clock.. or something.. It''s already taken me *weeks* and I''m far from done.. :-)>to figure out >how to configure fontconfig when I was forced to switch over. >Before I figured out that things could be tweaked (and how to >tweak them), I was actually complaining that fonts had become >much uglier than before. >That was my exact first reaction.. Rather than constantly rebooting I run my Debian desktop(s) chrooted on another vt.. so I was able to make instant comparisons either by switching vt''s or via screenshots.. When I first took a look at the X that Debian installed I thought.. Hmm.. looks like there''s some tweaking needs to be done.. But I *never* imagined that it would take me close to a month to achieve results that are yet not quite as neat as what I see in my old environment. And mind you, apart from switching my default variable font from helvetica to verdana in a few places I never really bothered tweaking that environment at all. Provided I used small fonts and stayed away from the printing-oriented stuff like dvi or gv everything looked just about as clean and legible as in Windows.>Of course, now I''m ok with fontconfig... :-) >Since it was one of the major changes with recent XFree86 versions .. my first reaction was t think that fontconfig was to blame. Then I re-read the fontconfig documentation more carefully and I realized that my problem had nothing to do with fontconfig per se.. As an end-user trying to customize my desktop I had no business directly dealing with fontconfig.. Instead I should consider using dpkg-reconfigure or the KDE/gnome configuration tools to set my aliasing/hinting preferences.>But on a Debian system there is the extra variable of defoma >too: good for prepackaged fonts, but a real hassle for self- >installed fonts. >Since I''m switching to Debian (trying to switch to Debian would be somewhat more accurate at this point..) .. where this little fellow comes into the picture is yet another mystery... Seems de-fo-ma does for Debian system administrators what fontconfig does for application developers.. provide a centralized control point for everything font-wise. Thanks much for your comments.. The other gentleman''s remarks gave me the impression that everything was working perfectly for everybody so it''s nice to know that someone else saw what I had seen.. and thereafter spent a sizeable amount of time fixing the problem.