dovecot - May 2016 - name of mailbox of implicit keep (was Re: Sieve extension for testing for mailbox)

Steffen Kaiser <skdovecot at smail.inf.fh-brs.de> writes:
> On Tue, 10 May 2016, Jon Kristensen wrote:
>
>> Which Pigeonhole Sieve extension should I use to process/test a 
>> message 
>> depending on whether the message is in a particular mailbox? 
>> (Is it the 
>> mboxmetadata extension by any chance? If so, I would appreciate 
>> if 
>> someone could tell me what the reason is for it not being 
>> enabled by 
>> default.)
>
>> The reason I want to perform this test is that I have 
>> configured my MTA 
>> to deliver "outgoing" e-mails to my "Sent" IMAP
folder, and
>> these 
>> messages arrive unread. I would like to mark them as read using 
>> Sieve.
>
> er, I guess, "message is in a particular mailbox" is meaning it 
> to be 
> spooled, or something like that, right?
>
> Do you use subaddressing (aka +addressing, +detail addressing)? 
> Then look 
> here: 
>
http://wiki2.dovecot.org/Pigeonhole/Sieve/Examples#Plus_Addressed_mail_filtering
>
> If you want to resolve the question in the second paragraphe, 
> search the 
> mailing list archive about how to get the name of the mailbox, 
> the 
> implicit keep stores the message in. I'm pretty sure, that there 
> was such 
> question lately.
>
> If you actually want to resolve the question in the first 
> paragraphe, to 
> check whether or not the same message has been spooled in a 
> folder already 
> (aka duplicate check), check out the duplicate extension with 
> ":handle" 
> argument. But you probably need to know the target mailbox, too.
I apologize for not expressing my problem in clear enough terms.

My e-mail server will put sent e-mail to the ~/.Maildir/.Sent 
(which is also a Maildir directory); naturally, the e-mail is 
first written into ~/.Maildir/.Sent/tmp, and then it's moved to 
~/.Maildir/.Sent/new.

After this has happened, I would like Dovecot to run a Sieve 
program that will discover that the e-mail is in the "Sent" 
folder, and mark it as seen.

To explain what I'm imagining with code:

if folder :is "Sent" {
    setflag "\\Seen";
}

So I don't use subaddressing. I always know the target mailbox, 
but it's always "Sent" (this is configured in the MTA).

I guess knowing the name of the mailbox that implicit keep stores 
the message in would solve my problem.

I'm assuming you are referring to this:

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/dovecot/pigeonhole/master/doc/rfc/spec-bosch-sieve-dovecot-environment.txt

And in particular this:

   "vnd.dovecot.default-mailbox"
         The default mailbox that is used by the (implicit) keep 
         action.
         Normally, this will always yield "INBOX", unless this is
         changed in the configuration.

It says that this normally will yield "INBOX". Do you, given my 
explanation above, think that it would yield "Sent" in my case? If 
not, how would I be able to use this?

Thanks a million!

-- 
Jon Kristensen (jonkri)
PGP fingerprint: 0377 F488 8908 0237 A2AE C484 387E C31D DA60 1350

Jon Kristensen <info at jonkri.org> writes:
> I'm assuming you are referring to this:
>
>
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/dovecot/pigeonhole/master/doc/rfc/spec-bosch-sieve-dovecot-environment.txt
Is it only me, or this not documented at 
<http://wiki2.dovecot.org/Pigeonhole/Sieve/>?

If it's not documented, should a bug be filed somewhere?

-- 
Jon Kristensen (jonkri)
PGP fingerprint: 0377 F488 8908 0237 A2AE C484 387E C31D DA60 1350

Op 5/11/2016 om 8:34 PM schreef Jon Kristensen:
> Steffen Kaiser <skdovecot at smail.inf.fh-brs.de> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 10 May 2016, Jon Kristensen wrote:
>>
>>> Which Pigeonhole Sieve extension should I use to process/test a
>>> message depending on whether the message is in a particular
mailbox?
>>> (Is it the mboxmetadata extension by any chance? If so, I would
>>> appreciate if someone could tell me what the reason is for it not
>>> being enabled by default.)
>>
>>> The reason I want to perform this test is that I have configured my
>>> MTA to deliver "outgoing" e-mails to my "Sent"
IMAP folder, and
>>> these messages arrive unread. I would like to mark them as read
>>> using Sieve.
>>
>> er, I guess, "message is in a particular mailbox" is meaning
it to be
>> spooled, or something like that, right?
>>
>> Do you use subaddressing (aka +addressing, +detail addressing)? Then
>> look here:
>>
http://wiki2.dovecot.org/Pigeonhole/Sieve/Examples#Plus_Addressed_mail_filtering
>>
>> If you want to resolve the question in the second paragraphe, search
>> the mailing list archive about how to get the name of the mailbox,
>> the implicit keep stores the message in. I'm pretty sure, that
there
>> was such question lately.
>>
>> If you actually want to resolve the question in the first paragraphe,
>> to check whether or not the same message has been spooled in a folder
>> already (aka duplicate check), check out the duplicate extension with
>> ":handle" argument. But you probably need to know the target
mailbox,
>> too.
>
> I apologize for not expressing my problem in clear enough terms.
>
> My e-mail server will put sent e-mail to the ~/.Maildir/.Sent (which
> is also a Maildir directory); naturally, the e-mail is first written
> into ~/.Maildir/.Sent/tmp, and then it's moved to ~/.Maildir/.Sent/new.
>
> After this has happened, I would like Dovecot to run a Sieve program
> that will discover that the e-mail is in the "Sent" folder, and
mark
> it as seen.
>
> To explain what I'm imagining with code:
>
> if folder :is "Sent" {
>    setflag "\\Seen";
> }
>
> So I don't use subaddressing. I always know the target mailbox, but
> it's always "Sent" (this is configured in the MTA).
>
> I guess knowing the name of the mailbox that implicit keep stores the
> message in would solve my problem.
>
> I'm assuming you are referring to this:
>
>
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/dovecot/pigeonhole/master/doc/rfc/spec-bosch-sieve-dovecot-environment.txt
>
>
> And in particular this:
>
>   "vnd.dovecot.default-mailbox"
>         The default mailbox that is used by the (implicit) keep
>         action.
>         Normally, this will always yield "INBOX", unless this is
>         changed in the configuration.
>
> It says that this normally will yield "INBOX". Do you, given my
> explanation above, think that it would yield "Sent" in my case?
If
> not, how would I be able to use this?
Your explanation suggests the MTA is directly delivering messages to the
Sent folder. In that case Sieve is never involved. Sieve is run only at
delivery when said delivery is performed using Dovecot's LDA or LMTP agents.

If you're using dovecot-lda, the target (default) mailbox can be
specified using the -m option. LMTP is less flexible and can only use
what's after the `recipient_delimiter' in the local part of the  address
as target mailbox when `lmtp_save_to_detail_mailbox=yes'.

Sieve will be able to see the configured default mailbox in the
environment extension you mentioned above. You can define an
administrator script for marking messages as seen using the sieve_before
setting. This script can also prevent the normal user script from being
executed by canceling the implicit keep.

Regards,

Stephan.

Stephan Bosch <stephan at rename-it.nl> writes:
> Op 5/11/2016 om 8:34 PM schreef Jon Kristensen:
>> Steffen Kaiser <skdovecot at smail.inf.fh-brs.de> writes:
>>
>>> On Tue, 10 May 2016, Jon Kristensen wrote:
>>>
>>>> Which Pigeonhole Sieve extension should I use to process/test 
>>>> a
>>>> message depending on whether the message is in a particular 
>>>> mailbox?
>>>> (Is it the mboxmetadata extension by any chance? If so, I 
>>>> would
>>>> appreciate if someone could tell me what the reason is for it 
>>>> not
>>>> being enabled by default.)
>>>
>>>> The reason I want to perform this test is that I have 
>>>> configured my
>>>> MTA to deliver "outgoing" e-mails to my
"Sent" IMAP folder,
>>>> and
>>>> these messages arrive unread. I would like to mark them as 
>>>> read
>>>> using Sieve.
>>>
>>> er, I guess, "message is in a particular mailbox" is
meaning
>>> it to be
>>> spooled, or something like that, right?
>>>
>>> Do you use subaddressing (aka +addressing, +detail 
>>> addressing)? Then
>>> look here:
>>>
http://wiki2.dovecot.org/Pigeonhole/Sieve/Examples#Plus_Addressed_mail_filtering
>>>
>>> If you want to resolve the question in the second paragraphe, 
>>> search
>>> the mailing list archive about how to get the name of the 
>>> mailbox,
>>> the implicit keep stores the message in. I'm pretty sure, that 
>>> there
>>> was such question lately.
>>>
>>> If you actually want to resolve the question in the first 
>>> paragraphe,
>>> to check whether or not the same message has been spooled in a 
>>> folder
>>> already (aka duplicate check), check out the duplicate 
>>> extension with
>>> ":handle" argument. But you probably need to know the
target
>>> mailbox,
>>> too.
>>
>> I apologize for not expressing my problem in clear enough 
>> terms.
>>
>> My e-mail server will put sent e-mail to the ~/.Maildir/.Sent 
>> (which
>> is also a Maildir directory); naturally, the e-mail is first 
>> written
>> into ~/.Maildir/.Sent/tmp, and then it's moved to 
>> ~/.Maildir/.Sent/new.
>>
>> After this has happened, I would like Dovecot to run a Sieve 
>> program
>> that will discover that the e-mail is in the "Sent" folder,
and
>> mark
>> it as seen.
>>
>> To explain what I'm imagining with code:
>>
>> if folder :is "Sent" {
>>    setflag "\\Seen";
>> }
>>
>> So I don't use subaddressing. I always know the target mailbox, 
>> but
>> it's always "Sent" (this is configured in the MTA).
>>
>> I guess knowing the name of the mailbox that implicit keep 
>> stores the
>> message in would solve my problem.
>>
>> I'm assuming you are referring to this:
>>
>>
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/dovecot/pigeonhole/master/doc/rfc/spec-bosch-sieve-dovecot-environment.txt
>>
>>
>> And in particular this:
>>
>>   "vnd.dovecot.default-mailbox"
>>         The default mailbox that is used by the (implicit) keep
>>         action.
>>         Normally, this will always yield "INBOX", unless this
>>         is
>>         changed in the configuration.
>>
>> It says that this normally will yield "INBOX". Do you, given
my
>> explanation above, think that it would yield "Sent" in my
case?
>> If
>> not, how would I be able to use this?
>
> Your explanation suggests the MTA is directly delivering 
> messages to the
> Sent folder. In that case Sieve is never involved. Sieve is run 
> only at
> delivery when said delivery is performed using Dovecot's LDA or 
> LMTP agents.
>
> If you're using dovecot-lda, the target (default) mailbox can be
> specified using the -m option. LMTP is less flexible and can 
> only use
> what's after the `recipient_delimiter' in the local part of the 
> address
> as target mailbox when `lmtp_save_to_detail_mailbox=yes'.
>
> Sieve will be able to see the configured default mailbox in the
> environment extension you mentioned above. You can define an
> administrator script for marking messages as seen using the 
> sieve_before
> setting. This script can also prevent the normal user script 
> from being
> executed by canceling the implicit keep.
>
> Regards,
>
> Stephan.
Thanks for your clarifications!

Just to confirm: Since my MTA is delivering my messages to 
~/Mailbox/.Sent directly, neither Sieve or Dovecot's LDA or LMTP 
facilities can/will be involved, and I can't really solve my 
original problem (having messages in the Sent folder being marked 
automatically as read, on the server) using any of these 
utilities? Or can perhaps dovecot-lda/lmtp be used to process 
these "Sent" messages?

Any suggestions on elegant approaches that would solve that 
particular problem would be very welcome.

-- 
Jon Kristensen (jonkri)
PGP fingerprint: 0377 F488 8908 0237 A2AE C484 387E C31D DA60 1350