Cruisecontrolrb users - Mar 2007 - greetings, and first question

Hi,

Nice project.  I saw the checkin for jbehave and I thought "SOLD!"

One question, is there a reason that it cannot be installed using gem?
 It would make starting the server easy.  Other people can also
customize the server like they do with Jetty (which I think is the
coolest servlet engine because of that).

-- 
Shane
http://www.shaneduan.com

cruisecontrolrb-users-bounces at rubyforge.org wrote on 03/14/2007 11:06:21 
PM:
> One question, is there a reason that it cannot be installed using gem?
Come on, guys (and gals), is "download and unzip" that much harder
than
"gem install ccrb"? Especially, to anyone who have ever installed a
J2EE
application? :)

On a more serious note, we''ve been asked about this a lot, and here is
my
2 cents on it. 


I''ve been through gem packaging with Instiki. It''s much more
complex than
it seems, because gems are really intended for packaging libraries and 
tools, not web applications that need to persist data and configuration.
Installing an app through gems complicates data storage, because now you 
have it in /usr/lib/ruby/gems, and on *nixes that directory is owned by 
root, and is read-only to anybody else.
So, you then face a question: how do I put the data somewhere more 
appropriate, perhaps ~/.ccrb? 

In case of CC.rb, the data that needs to be kept elsewhere is in all of 
these places:

* projects/
* tmp/
* some files in ./public (the cached pages), but not all of them
* log/
* config/site_config.rb
* builder_plugins/installed/

Clearly, Rails application structure was not designed with gem packaging 
in mind, either...

In fact, the biggest benefit of gem packaging is in the version upgrades. 
But it comes with significant implementation and maintenance cost. We are 
still debating within CC.rb team whether we should do gem packaging or 
not. Personally, I think that we have more useful stories to do.

Best regards,
Alex Verkhovsky
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On 15 Mar 2007, at 07:32, Alexey Verkhovsky wrote:
>
> cruisecontrolrb-users-bounces at rubyforge.org wrote on 03/14/2007  
> 11:06:21 PM:
> > One question, is there a reason that it cannot be installed using  
> gem?
>
> Come on, guys (and gals), is "download and unzip" that much
harder
> than "gem install ccrb"? Especially, to anyone who have ever  
> installed a J2EE application? :)
>
> On a more serious note, we''ve been asked about this a lot, and
here
> is my 2 cents on it.
>
>
> I''ve been through gem packaging with Instiki. It''s much
more
> complex than it seems, because gems are really intended for  
> packaging libraries and tools, not web applications that need to  
> persist data and configuration.
> Installing an app through gems complicates data storage, because  
> now you have it in /usr/lib/ruby/gems, and on *nixes that directory  
> is owned by root, and is read-only to anybody else.
> So, you then face a question: how do I put the data somewhere more  
> appropriate, perhaps ~/.ccrb?
>
Alexey,

I think you are spot on - every downloadable full Rails app (Typo/ 
Mephisto as the first examples I can think of) come shipped as tar/ 
zip. I see exactly your point regarding gems and they definitely do  
not seem suited for an app that needs to persist a large amount of data.

I don''t think anyone can give a good enough argument for having this  
ship as a gem, I agree the only angle on that may be upgrading to new  
versions - but this has never phased me on mephisto, just download  
the new package and unzip over the top. Just make sure all the  
example config files are named such that they don''t over-write any  
pre-existing config''s I''ve set up and its good to go.

You guys shouldn''t waste time building a gem, spend the time on what  
is turning out to be a great application!

Cheers,

David
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On 3/15/07, David Smalley <david.smalley.lists at googlemail.com>
wrote:
>
> On 15 Mar 2007, at 07:32, Alexey Verkhovsky wrote:
>
>
> cruisecontrolrb-users-bounces at rubyforge.org wrote on 03/14/2007 11:06:21
> PM:
> > One question, is there a reason that it cannot be installed using gem?
>
> Come on, guys (and gals), is "download and unzip" that much
harder than
> "gem install ccrb"? Especially, to anyone who have ever installed
a J2EE
> application? :)
>
> On a more serious note, we''ve been asked about this a lot, and
here is my
> 2 cents on it.
>
>
> I''ve been through gem packaging with Instiki. It''s much
more complex than
> it seems, because gems are really intended for packaging libraries and
> tools, not web applications that need to persist data and configuration.
> Installing an app through gems complicates data storage, because now you
> have it in /usr/lib/ruby/gems, and on *nixes that directory is owned by
> root, and is read-only to anybody else.
> So, you then face a question: how do I put the data somewhere more
> appropriate, perhaps ~/.ccrb?
>
>
> Alexey,
>
> I think you are spot on - every downloadable full Rails app (Typo/Mephisto
> as the first examples I can think of) come shipped as tar/zip. I see
exactly
> your point regarding gems and they definitely do not seem suited for an app
> that needs to persist a large amount of data.
>
> I don''t think anyone can give a good enough argument for having
this ship
> as a gem, I agree the only angle on that may be upgrading to new versions -
> but this has never phased me on mephisto, just download the new package and
> unzip over the top. Just make sure all the example config files are named
> such that they don''t over-write any pre-existing config''s
I''ve set up and
> its good to go.
>
> You guys shouldn''t waste time building a gem, spend the time on
what is
> turning out to be a great application!
>
> Cheers,
>
> David
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cruisecontrolrb-users mailing list
> Cruisecontrolrb-users at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/cruisecontrolrb-users
>
>
Well, having it as  a gem is like you guys spend time once, and everyone
else can enjoy the result. It might take you 1 day to automate the process,
10 minutes to build it, and 10 hours a month to maintain this automated
building system, but it is going to save all of CCRB user 2 hours to figure
out what to do the first time, 1 hour trying to do it right, and all of the
later maintenances that''s caused by CCRB''s changes. If you
think about it,
its a big saving in time, and a great marketing strategy for you to promote
ccrb even further.

It''s like you are able to sell your product with more sales channels,
and
more types of packaging. Because not everyone is interested in the same
flavor.

Lei
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On 15 Mar 2007, at 17:04, Lei Sun wrote:
> but it is going to save all of CCRB user 2 hours to figure out what  
> to do the first time, 1 hour trying to do it right, and all of the  
> later maintenances that''s caused by CCRB''s changes. If
you think
> about it, its a big saving in time, and a great marketing strategy  
> for you to promote ccrb even further.
I''d disagree that packaging as a gem would actually save any time -  
all packaging it as a gem does is allow people to type "gem install  
xxxxx" - from them on they''d still need to follow the same
procedure
as anyone who''d unzipped a tarball and it would mean that the  
Cruisecontrol.rb team would actually have to write two sets of  
instructions to support the more complicated gem method of  
installing. The gem install would still involve creating a space for  
persistent storage somewhere accessible to the user.

The instructions for CruiseControl are very straight forward and I  
don''t think using a gem would save anything other than having to go  
and find the URL to download the tarball. All I see is extra time for  
the ccrb team for no real gain for end users. Am I missing something?

David

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> You guys shouldn''t waste time building a gem, spend the time on
what
> is turning out to be a great application!
vs.
> its a big saving in time, 
> and a great marketing strategy for you to promote ccrb even further. 
Is a nice summary of the gem contoversy. :)

Alex
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On 3/15/07, David Smalley <david.smalley.lists at googlemail.com>
wrote:
>
>
> On 15 Mar 2007, at 17:04, Lei Sun wrote:
>
> but it is going to save all of CCRB user 2 hours to figure out what to do
> the first time, 1 hour trying to do it right, and all of the later
> maintenances that''s caused by CCRB''s changes. If you
think about it, its a
> big saving in time, and a great marketing strategy for you to promote ccrb
> even further.
>
>
> I''d disagree that packaging as a gem would actually save any time
- all
> packaging it as a gem does is allow people to type "gem install
xxxxx" -
> from them on they''d still need to follow the same procedure as
anyone who''d
> unzipped a tarball and it would mean that the Cruisecontrol.rb team would
> actually have to write two sets of instructions to support the more
> complicated gem method of installing. The gem install would still involve
> creating a space for persistent storage somewhere accessible to the user.
>
> The instructions for CruiseControl are very straight forward and I
don''t
> think using a gem would save anything other than having to go and find the
> URL to download the tarball. All I see is extra time for the ccrb team for
> no real gain for end users. Am I missing something?
>
> David
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cruisecontrolrb-users mailing list
> Cruisecontrolrb-users at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/cruisecontrolrb-users
>
>
Well, not only gem install, also gem update! gem uninstall, gem install with
dependency, etc. etc. There are scripts you use to setup and configure
everything.

Just think about it, if someone has all of their software installed using
gem, all he/she needs to do to upgrade all of the software is ''gem
update''.

Even though unzipping is not hard for one software. If every software
requires people to unzip, there is going to be an upgrade maintenance
nightmare.

That''s why there is a gem packaging system for ruby based software.
Linux
have package system, Freebsd has ports.

People won''t be ticked off if you politely ask them where they want to
setup
the persistent storage once, and remember the config later, so they
don''t
have to worry about doing it everytime they install or upgrade. Plus, they
don''t have to write an extra automating shell script to unzip the
distro,
and simple add one more entry to the original install script using gem
install and gem update.

Also, when you are running gem to install the gems, you usually set the env
up, so that you have write privilege to the place you install them, normally
either root, or your home dir. So there isn''t really a problem there.

Lei
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On 3/15/07, Lei Sun <lei.sun at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 3/15/07, David Smalley <david.smalley.lists at googlemail.com>
wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 15 Mar 2007, at 17:04, Lei Sun wrote:
> >
> > but it is going to save all of CCRB user 2 hours to figure out what to
> > do the first time, 1 hour trying to do it right, and all of the later
> > maintenances that''s caused by CCRB''s changes. If you
think about it, its a
> > big saving in time, and a great marketing strategy for you to promote
ccrb
> > even further.
> >
> >
> > I''d disagree that packaging as a gem would actually save any
time - all
> > packaging it as a gem does is allow people to type "gem install
xxxxx" -
> > from them on they''d still need to follow the same procedure
as anyone who''d
> > unzipped a tarball and it would mean that the Cruisecontrol.rb team
> > would actually have to write two sets of instructions to support the
more
> > complicated gem method of installing. The gem install would still
involve
> > creating a space for persistent storage somewhere accessible to the
user.
> >
> > The instructions for CruiseControl are very straight forward and I
don''t
> > think using a gem would save anything other than having to go and find
the
> > URL to download the tarball. All I see is extra time for the ccrb team
for
> > no real gain for end users. Am I missing something?
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cruisecontrolrb-users mailing list
> > Cruisecontrolrb-users at rubyforge.org
> > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/cruisecontrolrb-users
> >
> >
>
> Well, not only gem install, also gem update! gem uninstall, gem install
> with dependency, etc. etc. There are scripts you use to setup and configure
> everything.
>
> Just think about it, if someone has all of their software installed using
> gem, all he/she needs to do to upgrade all of the software is ''gem
update''.
>
> Even though unzipping is not hard for one software. If every software
> requires people to unzip, there is going to be an upgrade maintenance
> nightmare.
>
> That''s why there is a gem packaging system for ruby based
software. Linux
> have package system, Freebsd has ports.
>
> People won''t be ticked off if you politely ask them where they
want to
> setup the persistent storage once, and remember the config later, so they
> don''t have to worry about doing it everytime they install or
upgrade. Plus,
> they don''t have to write an extra automating shell script to unzip
the
> distro, and simple add one more entry to the original install script using
> gem install and gem update.
>
> Also, when you are running gem to install the gems, you usually set the
> env up, so that you have write privilege to the place you install them,
> normally either root, or your home dir. So there isn''t really a
problem
> there.
>
> Lei


Oh, Plus, it will save you tons of SUPPORT TIME and all the people from this
list to answer the novice question about how to install the thing every time
when there is some change.

Lei
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