CentOS - Feb 2021 - Challenging times in trying to access oracle Linux documentation

On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 15:22:21 -0500
Jonathan Billings wrote:

1.) you assume people will clearly label their off topic threads

I think that in most cases that will happen, yes, since people with a technical
background understand that clarity and precision are important when posting a
question or observation or asking for advice.

 2.) as we?ve seen, those off topic threads often weave in and out of on-topic
threads until a moderator tells you to take it to another venue.

Which of course never happens now with threads that start off discussing some
aspect of Centos?
> 
>  You?ll dilute the usefulness of this list to the point that it will be
> worthless for people who are interested in CentOS topics.
In your opinion.  On average, this is not a high-traffic mailing list and
I'd be really surprised if the traffic actually increased in any significant
way since a question that might today be asked about Centos will be asked
tomorrow about Rocky; either way, there's no net increase in the traffic,
just a change in the subject line.
> You want a generic
> rhel clone list?  Create one and post an announcement about it.
You're welcome to do that if that's your calling.  By all means, be my
guest, and so on.  Personally, I'm quite content using the mailing lists
that I've been using for years.  If I really have to sign up for some other
mailing lists then I can do that though it's not really my first choice of
actions.  I really have no desire to run a mailing list of my own.  Again,
though, you're welcome to undertake that if you wish and I might even be
convinced to sign up for it.
> If you want to talk about Rocky or Oracle Linux, use their lists. This list
is for CentOS.
Since neither you or I are the list manager, all we can do is express an
opinion.  I've expressed mine, you've expressed yours, and a few other
folks have chimed in too.   And we'll all get to find out what happens as
time goes on.
> If you have a question that is
> codebase specific, then just ask it without talking about the distro it
came
> from, but as soon as it becomes clear that it is infrastructure related,
keep
> it on the appropriate list. 
And after going through all of the above, you ultimately agree with me after
all.

I generally read just the parts of this mailing list that are of interest to me,
and most questions and observations that I see here are about specific
programs/setups/why-did-this-just-explode.  Unless they're buried in some of
the threads that I skip over because they don't seem relevant to what
I'm doing, I see very few questions about infrastructure and the like. 
Well, up until about two months ago, that is.  And I'm pretty sure the
infrastructure stuff will calm down again after the big change-over at the end
of this year.



-- 
MELVILLE THEATRE ~ Real D 3D Digital Cinema ~ www.melvilletheatre.com

Sorry about top posting.

Though I can understand Jonathan?s feelings, I am with Frank on this subject.
So, I will keep participating in ?non-CentOS? discussions which may be useful to
CentOS refugees, until I?m kicked out of the list, or such discussions become
forcefully banned. As this - CentOS list - is the only place where all CentOS
refugees may be present, and those fled to one distro may bring information
helpful for those fled to different distro, and most logical place for it is
this very list.

To CentOS fanats: I do understand your feelings. But try to understand those who
had to flee CentOS because of CentOS?s (or RedHat?s, or IBM?s) recent decision.
You only need to tolerate this  for about a year at the most, this inappropriate
in your view thing will fade out on its own.

Former happy CentOS user (for over decade and a half) who still supports a bunch
of CentOS number crunchers, - till EOL of respective release numbers.

Valeri
> On Feb 6, 2021, at 2:56 PM, Frank Cox <theatre at sasktel.net> wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 15:22:21 -0500
> Jonathan Billings wrote:
> 
> 1.) you assume people will clearly label their off topic threads
> 
> I think that in most cases that will happen, yes, since people with a
technical background understand that clarity and precision are important when
posting a question or observation or asking for advice.
> 
> 2.) as we?ve seen, those off topic threads often weave in and out of
on-topic threads until a moderator tells you to take it to another venue.
> 
> Which of course never happens now with threads that start off discussing
some aspect of Centos?
>> 
>> You?ll dilute the usefulness of this list to the point that it will be
>> worthless for people who are interested in CentOS topics.
> 
> In your opinion.  On average, this is not a high-traffic mailing list and
I'd be really surprised if the traffic actually increased in any significant
way since a question that might today be asked about Centos will be asked
tomorrow about Rocky; either way, there's no net increase in the traffic,
just a change in the subject line.
> 
>> You want a generic
>> rhel clone list?  Create one and post an announcement about it.
> 
> You're welcome to do that if that's your calling.  By all means, be
my guest, and so on.  Personally, I'm quite content using the mailing lists
that I've been using for years.  If I really have to sign up for some other
mailing lists then I can do that though it's not really my first choice of
actions.  I really have no desire to run a mailing list of my own.  Again,
though, you're welcome to undertake that if you wish and I might even be
convinced to sign up for it.
> 
>> If you want to talk about Rocky or Oracle Linux, use their lists. This
list is for CentOS.
> 
> Since neither you or I are the list manager, all we can do is express an
opinion.  I've expressed mine, you've expressed yours, and a few other
folks have chimed in too.   And we'll all get to find out what happens as
time goes on.
> 
>> If you have a question that is
>> codebase specific, then just ask it without talking about the distro it
came
>> from, but as soon as it becomes clear that it is infrastructure
related, keep
>> it on the appropriate list. 
> 
> And after going through all of the above, you ultimately agree with me
after all.
> 
> I generally read just the parts of this mailing list that are of interest
to me, and most questions and observations that I see here are about specific
programs/setups/why-did-this-just-explode.  Unless they're buried in some of
the threads that I skip over because they don't seem relevant to what
I'm doing, I see very few questions about infrastructure and the like. 
Well, up until about two months ago, that is.  And I'm pretty sure the
infrastructure stuff will calm down again after the big change-over at the end
of this year.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> MELVILLE THEATRE ~ Real D 3D Digital Cinema ~ www.melvilletheatre.com
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS mailing list
> CentOS at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 at 15:57, Frank Cox <theatre at sasktel.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 15:22:21 -0500
> Jonathan Billings wrote:
>
> 1.) you assume people will clearly label their off topic threads
>
> I think that in most cases that will happen, yes, since people with a
> technical background understand that clarity and precision are important
> when posting a question or observation or asking for advice.
>
>  2.) as we?ve seen, those off topic threads often weave in and out of
> on-topic threads until a moderator tells you to take it to another venue.
>
> Which of course never happens now with threads that start off discussing
> some aspect of Centos?
> >
> >  You?ll dilute the usefulness of this list to the point that it will
be
> > worthless for people who are interested in CentOS topics.
>
> In your opinion.  On average, this is not a high-traffic mailing list and
> I'd be really surprised if the traffic actually increased in any
> significant way since a question that might today be asked about Centos
> will be asked tomorrow about Rocky; either way, there's no net increase
in
> the traffic, just a change in the subject line.
>
>
I have now administered mailing lists for 25+ years and I have found that
what happens is that off-topic traffic basically causes an echo chamber
effect over time. The people having the side conversations get louder and
louder over time not because the list gets larger but because they have
'driven' off the people who were here for a specific focus. The people
remaining become more and more of an echo chamber moving the 'topic' to
being wha

I realize that this has been a traumatic split in the culture for a lot of
people (myself included), but there is a point where the list main topic of
discussion will be on how to use/administer/fix CentOS Stream and CentOS-7
versus Oracle/FreeBSD/Rocky/Alma/Debian/Slackware/etc.

I can ask for a generic-enterprise-nix (genix?) list on the CentOS mailman
and see if that can take up the traffic for the people who feel that they
want and need to talk about alternatives. If that is acceptable then people
can subscribe there and talk in detail about other operating systems
choices.  I do believe these conversations do need to happen but not
everyone wants to hear the 4 Yorkshiremen skit every day as we
'old-timers'
deal with our past.


-- 
Stephen J Smoogen.