CentOS - Dec 2020 - [CentOS-devel] https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/future-is-centos-stream/

On 12/8/20 10:41 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 10:39 AM Jonathan Billings <billings at
negate.org>
> wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Dec 08, 2020 at 10:28:30AM -0500, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
>>> You have published a CentOS Lifecycle that states the EOL for
CentOS 8 is
>>> May 2029. (c.f.
>> https://endoflife.software/operating-systems/linux/centos).
>>> CentOS Stream *is not* CentOS 8.
>>>
>>> This announcement is a breach of that trust with your community,
and
>> could
>>> be construed as a breach of contract with your users.
>>>
>>> Save this change for CentOS 9.
>>
>> Don't worry, it's been fixed.  :/
>>
>>
>>
> Don't worry. I saved a copy.
So did we. It's in Git.

That page was never a contract. It's a web page published by an open 
source project. Please do not misconstrue it as a contract.

> Am 08.12.2020 um 17:15 schrieb Rich Bowen <rbowen at redhat.com>:
> 
> 
> 
> On 12/8/20 10:41 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 10:39 AM Jonathan Billings <billings at
negate.org>
>> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Dec 08, 2020 at 10:28:30AM -0500, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
>>>> You have published a CentOS Lifecycle that states the EOL for
CentOS 8 is
>>>> May 2029. (c.f.
>>> https://endoflife.software/operating-systems/linux/centos).
>>>> CentOS Stream *is not* CentOS 8.
>>>> 
>>>> This announcement is a breach of that trust with your
community, and
>>> could
>>>> be construed as a breach of contract with your users.
>>>> 
>>>> Save this change for CentOS 9.
>>> 
>>> Don't worry, it's been fixed.  :/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> Don't worry. I saved a copy.
> 
> So did we. It's in Git.
> 
> That page was never a contract. It's a web page published by an open
source project. Please do not misconstrue it as a contract.
Of course it was not a legally binding contract.  But we, the users, trusted
you.  No we don't anymore.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS mailing list
> CentOS at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 10:15 AM Rich Bowen <rbowen at redhat.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 12/8/20 10:41 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 10:39 AM Jonathan Billings <billings at
negate.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, Dec 08, 2020 at 10:28:30AM -0500, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> >>> You have published a CentOS Lifecycle that states the EOL for
CentOS 8
> is
> >>> May 2029. (c.f.
> >> https://endoflife.software/operating-systems/linux/centos).
> >>> CentOS Stream *is not* CentOS 8.
> >>>
> >>> This announcement is a breach of that trust with your
community, and
> >> could
> >>> be construed as a breach of contract with your users.
> >>>
> >>> Save this change for CentOS 9.
> >>
> >> Don't worry, it's been fixed.  :/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > Don't worry. I saved a copy.
>
> So did we. It's in Git.
>
> That page was never a contract. It's a web page published by an open
> source project. Please do not misconstrue it as a contract.
>
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS mailing list
> CentOS at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
>
> Yeah that makes it all better, lol. If this was the direction you should
> have done it before releasing Centos 8, of course Redhat can do what they
> want to do, becoming more and more like MS, oh well.

On Tue, Dec 08, 2020 at 11:15:04AM -0500, Rich Bowen
wrote:
> That page was never a contract. It's a web page published by an open
source
> project. Please do not misconstrue it as a contract.
I don't think anyone seriously thought it was a contract.

Open Source works largely on trust.  Trust that the developers aren't
going to intentionally harm their users, and the trust that those
developers will provide a consistent product.  Developers earn the
trust of their users.  Trust is the basic commodity for Open Source. 

That doesn't mean that open source providers always provide those
things.  There are many, many stories out there where upstream makes
an abrupt change that their users dislike.  And if you've broken that
trust, end users are going to be wary of ever putting any more trust
in the developers.

Maybe the CentOS Stream thing will work out OK for everyone.  But the
way this was announced, there are a lot of people who have lost trust
in CentOS and Red Hat.  Changing the end of life for CentOS 8 has
broken our trust in the project.

I see a lot of promises that Stream will have better engagement with
the community.  Why would we trust these promises?

-- 
Jonathan Billings <billings at negate.org>

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:15 AM Rich Bowen <rbowen at redhat.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 12/8/20 10:41 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 10:39 AM Jonathan Billings <billings at
negate.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, Dec 08, 2020 at 10:28:30AM -0500, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> >>> You have published a CentOS Lifecycle that states the EOL for
CentOS 8
> is
> >>> May 2029. (c.f.
> >> https://endoflife.software/operating-systems/linux/centos).
> >>> CentOS Stream *is not* CentOS 8.
> >>>
> >>> This announcement is a breach of that trust with your
community, and
> >> could
> >>> be construed as a breach of contract with your users.
> >>>
> >>> Save this change for CentOS 9.
> >>
> >> Don't worry, it's been fixed.  :/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > Don't worry. I saved a copy.
>
> So did we. It's in Git.
>
> That page was never a contract. It's a web page published by an open
> source project. Please do not misconstrue it as a contract.
>
> _

Maybe not a contract, but clearly CentOS set that timeline in the past and
has now abandoned it, on extremely short notice, and that is a major breach
of trust.

Changing a product timeline BY EIGHT YEARS is a huge, huge change, and it
completely erodes any confidence your community has in you.

I respectfully request this change be postponed until CentOS 9 and
announced as such from the beginning.


> _____________________________________________
> CentOS mailing list
> CentOS at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
>

-- 

*Matt Phelps*

*Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*

(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
email: mphelps at cfa.harvard.edu


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