CentOS - Jun 2015 - LVM hatred, was Re: /boot on a separate partition?

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 14:23:52 -0400
Mauricio Tavares <raubvogel at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Marko Vojinovic <vvmarko at
gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 11:15:30 -0500
> > Jason Warr <jason at warr.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm curious what has made some people hate LVM so much.
> > 
> > (3) It's being pushed as default on everyday ordinary users, who
> > have absolutely no need for it.
> >
>       That is not lvm's fault, but the distro's decision.
Agreed, but remember that hatred is not a rational thing. When one sees
LVM being pushed onto them by their favorite distro, they are not going
to blame the distro (because it's their favorite distro, you know...),
but rather the LVM itself. Psychology is a curious thing. ;-)
 
> > Also, related to (3), there was that famous Fedora upgrade fiasco a
> > few Fedora releases back. It went like this:
> >
>       Fedora != lvm unless I have been lied to all these years.
That Fedora stunt was just one real-world example of how things can get
drastically wrong, and for a sizable number of people. I wasn't
criticizing LVM, I was answering why some people hate it. :-)

As far as an ordinary noob user thinks, this is how it goes. Things
that participated in the problem were:

 - upgrade software,
 - boot partition,
 - grub bootloader,
 - LVM.

A typical noob user knows they need the first three components for
day-to-day work, and that they don't need the fourth. Also, people who
didn't have the fourth component didn't have the problem. Guess which
of the four will catch the blame? Moreover, the fourth component failed
to help with the problem, despite it being there precisely for
partition resizing. There's nothing more to discuss, it's clear as
day... :-D

Remember, I'm not justifying this "reasoning", just reporting what
I've
seen happen out in the wild, and why some people hate LVM. ;-)

Best, :-)
Marko

Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 14:23:52 -0400
> Mauricio Tavares <raubvogel at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Marko Vojinovic <vvmarko at
gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 11:15:30 -0500
>> > Jason Warr <jason at warr.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I'm curious what has made some people hate LVM so much.
>> >
>> > (3) It's being pushed as default on everyday ordinary users,
who
>> > have absolutely no need for it.
>> >
>>       That is not lvm's fault, but the distro's decision.
>
> Agreed, but remember that hatred is not a rational thing. When one sees
<snip>
Hold on thar, pardner. I don't "hate" LVM, but don't care for
it. And in
most cases, or at least my own, and the person who is vehemently against
it, it's based on personal experience. How is that "not a rational
thing"?

For that matter, haven't you ever gotten gunshy when something that's
billed as the LATESTGREATESTTHINGSINCESLICEDBREAD is buggy, and not ready
for prime time? Certainly 10-12 years ago, that's how I felt about python,
where literally every sub-release broke what was running. Is it irrational
to be unappreciative of it? (We'll ignore my unhappiness at the whole
concept of whitespace as a syntax element.)

Or then there's systemd....

        mark

On 6/23/2015 3:31 PM, m.roth at 5-cent.us wrote:
> Marko Vojinovic wrote:
>> On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 14:23:52 -0400
>> Mauricio Tavares <raubvogel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Marko Vojinovic <vvmarko at
gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 11:15:30 -0500
>>>> Jason Warr <jason at warr.net> wrote:
>>>>> I'm curious what has made some people hate LVM so much.
>>>> (3) It's being pushed as default on everyday ordinary
users, who
>>>> have absolutely no need for it.
>>>>
>>>        That is not lvm's fault, but the distro's decision.
>> Agreed, but remember that hatred is not a rational thing. When one sees
> <snip>
> Hold on thar, pardner. I don't "hate" LVM, but don't care
for it. And in
> most cases, or at least my own, and the person who is vehemently against
> it, it's based on personal experience. How is that "not a rational
thing"?
The only thing that could be irrational about it is if you were to say 
"It does not work for me now so how can it work for anyone, ever?"

I have not seen any of you guys taking that attitude but some do.

Recommending against using LVM and citing reasons based on your 
experience with it is certainly valid and basically why I asked the 
question in the first place.  I have not come across any serious 
blockers and was curious what made it blockers for some of you.


>
> For that matter, haven't you ever gotten gunshy when something
that's
> billed as the LATESTGREATESTTHINGSINCESLICEDBREAD is buggy, and not ready
> for prime time? Certainly 10-12 years ago, that's how I felt about
python,
> where literally every sub-release broke what was running. Is it irrational
> to be unappreciative of it? (We'll ignore my unhappiness at the whole
> concept of whitespace as a syntax element.)
>
> Or then there's systemd....
>
>          mark
>
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