Okay, we might have a slight problem: It doesn''t seem that Markaby ever had a specific license. This means that it''s currently "Copyright ? _why" and we might not have the right to re-distribute (or contribute to) it. So first of all: if you''ve ever seen a LICENSE/COPYING-file (or something else that explicitly says the license) related to Markaby, please let us know! If not, I''m wondering what we should do. I don''t think that _why would really care if people brought his libraries forward, but I kinda get an uneasy feeling about this. // Magnus Holm
Markaby is kind of bad though. It has problems, like it doesn''t cope well with boolean attributes (last I looked anyway), and it''s totes out of date with HTML5 and all that. Could we take this opportunity to start a new project, with Markaby compatible syntax (at least optionally) based around modern web standards, with direct straight forward support for html5 syntax, modern tags and attributes, better validation (perhaps by scanning the actual validator files produced by the html5 working group, or at least a format programatically derived from it so we need not maintain tedious lists?), and an explicit widgeting system where you can define your own virtual tags, which emit tags and code to do higher level jobs - for instance a blueprint module, supporting the twitter blueprint framework with nice APIs, allowing it''s use almost akin to a desktop windowing toolkit. We could even have extensions for things like ajax, so you could add onclick properties with proc values, such that an ajax call back to the server (or websockets or whatever) lets the server do stuff and mutate the dom or replace the page entirely. Native support for eventsource could be enabled with Shoes-like animate tags, where the server would run code from time to time and stream out updates to the viewer. When Why made the original Hackety Hack atop web tech, the web was immature and buggy for writing apps, and the project failed from a mix of Gecko being really nasty, and the web being a bad platform for that sort of software. I think we have a chance for a do-over. These days it''s easy to do things like script a textarea in to being a richly formatted text or code editor (without needing to fuss around with the horrible contentEditable), or use a canvas tag or svg to render fun shapes and animations, or play sounds and videos. CSS can run animations and transitions at a C level, and can do hardware 3d transforms. WebGL is nearing too, and could potentially be interfaced via a websocket, the same way linux apps interface with an X11 server today. Doesn''t that sound like a cool thing? ? Jenna Fox On Sunday, 18 December 2011 at 9:33 AM, Magnus Holm wrote:> Okay, we might have a slight problem: > > It doesn''t seem that Markaby ever had a specific license. This means > that it''s currently "Copyright ? _why" and we might not have the right > to re-distribute (or contribute to) it. > > So first of all: if you''ve ever seen a LICENSE/COPYING-file (or > something else that explicitly says the license) related to Markaby, > please let us know! > > If not, I''m wondering what we should do. I don''t think that _why would > really care if people brought his libraries forward, but I kinda get > an uneasy feeling about this. > > // Magnus Holm > _______________________________________________ > Camping-list mailing list > Camping-list at rubyforge.org (mailto:Camping-list at rubyforge.org) > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/camping-list > >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://rubyforge.org/pipermail/camping-list/attachments/20111218/e8fed03c/attachment.html>
> We could even have extensions for things like ajax, so you could add onclick properties with proc values, such that an ajax call back to the server (or websockets or whatever) lets the server do stuff and mutate the dom or replace the page entirely.I really like this idea, but don''t you risk getting into a situation where you''re maintaining all your application logic in a view? In an ajax-heavy app you''d end up with a couple of controllers and then heaps of code in your view. I suppose elements could support a property like that''s basically like the R() method for building link hrefs, but with semantics that specifically make them useful for defining AJAX handlers. One problem for me with this stuff in any web framework is that the distinction between standard handlers and AJAX ones is (necessarily) foggy. I wonder if there''s a clear solution to this that doesn''t involve uncomfortably shoehorning handlers into one category of the other. On Sunday, 18 December 2011 at 10:42 AM, Jenna Fox wrote:> Markaby is kind of bad though. It has problems, like it doesn''t cope well with boolean attributes (last I looked anyway), and it''s totes out of date with HTML5 and all that. Could we take this opportunity to start a new project, with Markaby compatible syntax (at least optionally) based around modern web standards, with direct straight forward support for html5 syntax, modern tags and attributes, better validation (perhaps by scanning the actual validator files produced by the html5 working group, or at least a format programatically derived from it so we need not maintain tedious lists?), and an explicit widgeting system where you can define your own virtual tags, which emit tags and code to do higher level jobs - for instance a blueprint module, supporting the twitter blueprint framework with nice APIs, allowing it''s use almost akin to a desktop windowing toolkit. We could even have extensions for things like ajax, so you could add onclick properties with proc values, such that an ajax call back to the server (or websockets or whatever) lets the server do stuff and mutate the dom or replace the page entirely. Native support for eventsource could be enabled with Shoes-like animate tags, where the server would run code from time to time and stream out updates to the viewer. > > When Why made the original Hackety Hack atop web tech, the web was immature and buggy for writing apps, and the project failed from a mix of Gecko being really nasty, and the web being a bad platform for that sort of software. I think we have a chance for a do-over. These days it''s easy to do things like script a textarea in to being a richly formatted text or code editor (without needing to fuss around with the horrible contentEditable), or use a canvas tag or svg to render fun shapes and animations, or play sounds and videos. CSS can run animations and transitions at a C level, and can do hardware 3d transforms. WebGL is nearing too, and could potentially be interfaced via a websocket, the same way linux apps interface with an X11 server today. > > Doesn''t that sound like a cool thing? > > > ? > Jenna Fox > > > On Sunday, 18 December 2011 at 9:33 AM, Magnus Holm wrote: > > > Okay, we might have a slight problem: > > > > It doesn''t seem that Markaby ever had a specific license. This means > > that it''s currently "Copyright ? _why" and we might not have the right > > to re-distribute (or contribute to) it. > > > > So first of all: if you''ve ever seen a LICENSE/COPYING-file (or > > something else that explicitly says the license) related to Markaby, > > please let us know! > > > > If not, I''m wondering what we should do. I don''t think that _why would > > really care if people brought his libraries forward, but I kinda get > > an uneasy feeling about this. > > > > // Magnus Holm > > _______________________________________________ > > Camping-list mailing list > > Camping-list at rubyforge.org (mailto:Camping-list at rubyforge.org) > > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/camping-list > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Camping-list mailing list > Camping-list at rubyforge.org (mailto:Camping-list at rubyforge.org) > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/camping-list > >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://rubyforge.org/pipermail/camping-list/attachments/20111218/31f1d0e8/attachment-0001.html>
A wild project appears: http://krainboltgreene.github.com/dapper-dan/
Nice! Lets just all use this thing! What say you, everyone? ? Jenna Fox On Sunday, 18 December 2011 at 12:47 PM, Steve Klabnik wrote:> A wild project appears: http://krainboltgreene.github.com/dapper-dan/ > _______________________________________________ > Camping-list mailing list > Camping-list at rubyforge.org (mailto:Camping-list at rubyforge.org) > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/camping-list > >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://rubyforge.org/pipermail/camping-list/attachments/20111218/48cf8c9e/attachment.html>
On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 02:47, Steve Klabnik <steve at steveklabnik.com> wrote:> A wild project appears: http://krainboltgreene.github.com/dapper-dan/Some problems: * It doesn''t support CSS proxy (div.wrapper! { ? ] == div(:id => ''wrapper'') { ? }) * It doesn''t escape stuff * It doesn''t specify its dependencies correctly (crack.rb) * It loads awesome_print at runtime * The released version on RubyGems doesn''t actually work Everything else than the first issue is easy to fix. CSS proxies might require some bigger refactoring to implement. That said, it''s not hard to implement something Markaby-ish. I experimented a bit, and ended up with a fast Markaby-replacement in 130 LoC: https://github.com/judofyr/rumble. We might be able to adapt it.
Aw.. That is rather disappointing. But still, I see this problem as a chance to be reborn anew. Fresh and clean of the bad lessons learnt by Markaby. We did learn some lessons, didn''t we? ? Jenna Fox On Sunday, 18 December 2011 at 7:27 PM, Magnus Holm wrote:> On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 02:47, Steve Klabnik <steve at steveklabnik.com (mailto:steve at steveklabnik.com)> wrote: > > A wild project appears: http://krainboltgreene.github.com/dapper-dan/ > > > Some problems: > > * It doesn''t support CSS proxy (div.wrapper! { ? ] == div(:id => > ''wrapper'') { ? }) > * It doesn''t escape stuff > * It doesn''t specify its dependencies correctly (crack.rb) > * It loads awesome_print at runtime > * The released version on RubyGems doesn''t actually work > > Everything else than the first issue is easy to fix. CSS proxies might > require some bigger refactoring to implement. > > That said, it''s not hard to implement something Markaby-ish. I > experimented a bit, and ended up with a fast Markaby-replacement in > 130 LoC: https://github.com/judofyr/rumble. We might be able to adapt > it. > _______________________________________________ > Camping-list mailing list > Camping-list at rubyforge.org (mailto:Camping-list at rubyforge.org) > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/camping-list > >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://rubyforge.org/pipermail/camping-list/attachments/20111218/0ca2693e/attachment.html>
Not really sure to be honest. It looks very nice and is basically markaby. But I think we should either create our own, or fork it so we could have our own cool stuff, like the AJAX things someone mentioned. Also, it would be cool if you could also write JS in ruby easily with camping out of the box. I know Coffeescript is similar but does it use ruby syntax? I just think we should have all the good stuff in our own language. So we can make it work well with camping. Like having an optional module for scripts that you can use in any view to make stuff dry. Or you could write scripts in the view. I think we could do something cool -- Skickat fr?n min Android-telefon med K-9 E-post. Urs?kta min f?ordighet. Jenna Fox <a at creativepony.com> skrev: Nice! Lets just all use this thing! What say you, everyone? ? Jenna Fox On Sunday, 18 December 2011 at 12:47 PM, Steve Klabnik wrote: A wild project appears: http://krainboltgreene.github.com/dapper-dan/ _______________________________________________ Camping-list mailing list Camping-list at rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/camping-list Looking for hosting web? Find it at Www.sandglass.com http://click.lavabit.com/wjq784xbw67pm3h5ryf3kjnsycsihms3uo8gg1qdyuphy7ixobbb/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://rubyforge.org/pipermail/camping-list/attachments/20111218/f427a313/attachment.html>
You can''t really write Javascript in Ruby due to the way it (and its libraries like jQuery) handle functions. Sure, it could be done, but the code would be ugly. 2011/12/18, Isak Andersson <IcePapih at lavabit.com>:> Not really sure to be honest. > It looks very nice and is basically markaby. > > But I think we should either create our own, or fork it so we could have our > own cool stuff, like the AJAX things someone mentioned. > > Also, it would be cool if you could also write JS in ruby easily with > camping out of the box. I know Coffeescript is similar but does it use ruby > syntax? > > I just think we should have all the good stuff in our own language. So we > can make it work well with camping. > Like having an optional module for scripts that you can use in any view to > make stuff dry. Or you could write scripts in the view. > > I think we could do something cool > -- > Skickat fr?n min Android-telefon med K-9 E-post. Urs?kta min f?ordighet. > > Jenna Fox <a at creativepony.com> skrev: > > Nice! Lets just all use this thing! > > > What say you, everyone? > > > > ? > > Jenna Fox > > > On Sunday, 18 December 2011 at 12:47 PM, Steve Klabnik wrote: > > A wild project appears: http://krainboltgreene.github.com/dapper-dan/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Camping-list mailing list > > Camping-list at rubyforge.org > > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/camping-list > > > Looking for hosting web? Find it at Www.sandglass.com > http://click.lavabit.com/wjq784xbw67pm3h5ryf3kjnsycsihms3uo8gg1qdyuphy7ixobbb/ > >-- -- Matma Rex
Rumble seems like a good start. So what else would need to be done? On 12/18/2011 1:27 AM, Magnus Holm wrote:> On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 02:47, Steve Klabnik<steve at steveklabnik.com> wrote: >> A wild project appears: http://krainboltgreene.github.com/dapper-dan/ > Some problems: > > * It doesn''t support CSS proxy (div.wrapper! { ? ] == div(:id => > ''wrapper'') { ? }) > * It doesn''t escape stuff > * It doesn''t specify its dependencies correctly (crack.rb) > * It loads awesome_print at runtime > * The released version on RubyGems doesn''t actually work > > Everything else than the first issue is easy to fix. CSS proxies might > require some bigger refactoring to implement. > > That said, it''s not hard to implement something Markaby-ish. I > experimented a bit, and ended up with a fast Markaby-replacement in > 130 LoC: https://github.com/judofyr/rumble. We might be able to adapt > it. > _______________________________________________ > Camping-list mailing list > Camping-list at rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/camping-list-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://rubyforge.org/pipermail/camping-list/attachments/20111218/10f5cb7c/attachment-0001.html>
Jenna Fox <a at creativepony.com> writes:> the same way linux apps interface with an X11 server today.Hey, we''ve been there, 15 years ago: http://ftp.x.org/pub/X11R6.8.2/doc/libxrx.1.html -- Christian Neukirchen <chneukirchen at gmail.com> http://chneukirchen.org
Been lurking, so offering an overview response:> Jenna: I see this problem as a chance to be reborn anew.This *does* seem like the opportunity to remake Markaby (continuing the _why legacy) ''for the 21st Century'' that generates either optionally indented (n spaces) or minimised: HTML5 (at least what''s definite so far) HTML4.01 (strict - no need to allow deprecated markup) but *not* the officially dead XHTML (or - for me - it''s syntax e.g. self-closing br tags).> Phillipe: Rumble seems like a good start.(https://github.com/judofyr/rumble)> Magnus: this commit implements a tiny and fast Markaby-alternative > (called Mab) ... it''s completely inline in camping/mab.rb, but it > should be fairy easy to create another Rubygem where we could > implement for advanced features (indentation, AJAX-stuff, whatever).(git pull https://github.com/camping/camping mab || https://github.com/camping/camping/pull/50) How do Rumble/Mab square up regarding -XHTML +HTML4/5? Being primarily a front-ender who knows HTML/CSS backwards and HTML5 pretty well, I''d happily pitch in with this.> write JS in ruby easily with camping out of the boxNot sure about that, as reinventing a (say) CoffeeScript-esque wheel seems redundant - I''d go for minimalism (Camping''s strength), not expansion. Rewriting HTML as a ''Ruby DSL'' makes sense, but both CSS and Javascript already have Less (plus descendants) and CoffeeScript (and, of course JQuery on top). But then I''d argue that knowing those languages is an essential WebUI skill anyway. DaveE> Okay, we might have a slight problem: > > It doesn''t seem that Markaby ever had a specific license. This means > that it''s currently "Copyright ? _why" and we might not have the > right to re-distribute (or contribute to) it. > > So first of all: if you''ve ever seen a LICENSE/COPYING-file (or > something else that explicitly says the license) related to Markaby, > please let us know! > > If not, I''m wondering what we should do. I don''t think that _why > would really care if people brought his libraries forward, but I > kinda get an uneasy feeling about this. > > // Magnus Holm > _______________________________________________ > Camping-list mailing list > Camping-list at rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/camping-list
Small note: XHTML did survive, it''s XHTML2 which didn''t: there''s an XML version of HTML5 called XHTML5. We now return to your regularly scheduled discussion.
On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 19:10, Dave Everitt <deveritt at innotts.co.uk> wrote:>> >> Magnus: this commit implements a tiny and fast Markaby-alternative (called >> Mab) ... it''s completely inline in camping/mab.rb, but it should be fairy >> easy to create another Rubygem where we could implement for advanced >> features (indentation, AJAX-stuff, whatever). > > > (git pull https://github.com/camping/camping mab || > https://github.com/camping/camping/pull/50) > > How do Rumble/Mab square up regarding -XHTML +HTML4/5? >Mab only supports HTML in the sense that it creates tags like <br> instead of <br />. It has a list of tag names it supports, which includes pretty much everything in HTML4 and 5.
> Small note: XHTML did survive, it''s XHTML2 which didn''t: there''s an > XML version of HTML5 called XHTML5. > > We now return to your regularly scheduled discussion.I didn''t know about XHTML5 and can''t find any recent information? - DaveE
XHTML5 is a fancy name for the way the HTML5 spec grudgingly allows the use of XML-like syntax, allowing for XML Builders like current markaby to be technically allowable as valid HTML. It''s not ''real'' in that they don''t provide validators for it and browsers aren''t supposed to parse it as XML or support any XML features. The HTML spec suggests it be avoided if possible, and I agree, on the grounds that XML-style syntax gives people the incorrect impression that a document maybe valid XML. In most cases, that''s not true. It might also give people the impression that they could use XML features, which is also not true. XHTML is a dead standard. Long live HTML with XML-style boolean attributes and self closing tags permitted! And long live Nokogiri/Beautiful Soup - the easy and friendly way to parse any sort of document, regardless if it pretends to be XML or is just plain friendly compact HTML. ? Jenna Fox On Tuesday, 20 December 2011 at 10:09 AM, Dave Everitt wrote:> > Small note: XHTML did survive, it''s XHTML2 which didn''t: there''s an > > XML version of HTML5 called XHTML5. > > > > We now return to your regularly scheduled discussion. > > I didn''t know about XHTML5 and can''t find any recent information? - > DaveE > > _______________________________________________ > Camping-list mailing list > Camping-list at rubyforge.org (mailto:Camping-list at rubyforge.org) > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/camping-list > >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://rubyforge.org/pipermail/camping-list/attachments/20111220/c5140b56/attachment-0001.html>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML5#XHTML5 http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-xhtml-syntax.html#writing-xhtml-documents being the specific line in the spec
Oh I didn''t realise they had a formal ''use it with xml mime-type'' sort of arrangement as well as the polyglot markup. Thanks for schooling me, Steve! :) ? Jenna Fox On Tuesday, 20 December 2011 at 12:48 PM, Steve Klabnik wrote:> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML5#XHTML5 > > http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-xhtml-syntax.html#writing-xhtml-documents > being the specific line in the spec > _______________________________________________ > Camping-list mailing list > Camping-list at rubyforge.org (mailto:Camping-list at rubyforge.org) > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/camping-list > >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://rubyforge.org/pipermail/camping-list/attachments/20111220/1863d5e4/attachment.html>
Yep! Granted, if you serve it with an XML MIME type, it must be able to be parsed with an XML parser, so none of that <p> <b>this <i>is</b> insane</i> stuff! But still... I actually like XML. There are some of us in Ruby...
I tried to use that crazy stuff recently and it just doesn''t work, in webkit at least. ? Jenna On 20/12/2011, at 4:34 PM, Steve Klabnik <steve at steveklabnik.com> wrote:> Yep! Granted, if you serve it with an XML MIME type, it must be able > to be parsed with an XML parser, so none of that > > <p> > <b>this <i>is</b> insane</i> > > stuff! But still... > > I actually like XML. There are some of us in Ruby... > _______________________________________________ > Camping-list mailing list > Camping-list at rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/camping-list
I think people should write HTML in HTML, CSS in CSS, Javascript in Javascript, and Ruby in Ruby. I don''t get the fascination with DSLs for existing domains. DSLs for your own stuff is okay, where you need something that is more complex than a bunch of functions and less complex than a full blown language. But DSLs for existing domains. Just write it in the target language already. If you want to integrate with other stuff you can. If you want to switch platforms you can and you don''t have to throw awaw or rewrite a ton of stuff. On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 6:56 AM, Jenna Fox <a at creativepony.com> wrote:> I tried to use that crazy stuff recently and it just doesn''t work, in > webkit at least. > > ? > Jenna > > On 20/12/2011, at 4:34 PM, Steve Klabnik <steve at steveklabnik.com> wrote: > > > Yep! Granted, if you serve it with an XML MIME type, it must be able > > to be parsed with an XML parser, so none of that > > > > <p> > > <b>this <i>is</b> insane</i> > > > > stuff! But still... > > > > I actually like XML. There are some of us in Ruby... > > _______________________________________________ > > Camping-list mailing list > > Camping-list at rubyforge.org > > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/camping-list > _______________________________________________ > Camping-list mailing list > Camping-list at rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/camping-list >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://rubyforge.org/pipermail/camping-list/attachments/20111229/dd05e7f8/attachment.html>
I think people who want to write HTML in HTML should write HTML in HTML. I think people who don''t want to write HTML in HTML should write it in something they prefer. Just my humble opinion. --Isak Andersson Den 2011-12-29 02:14:18 skrev Anthony Durity <gravious at jollyrotten.org>:> I think people should write HTML in HTML, CSS in CSS, Javascript in > Javascript, and Ruby in Ruby. > > I don''t get the fascination with DSLs for existing domains. DSLs for your > own stuff is okay, where you need something that is more complex than a > bunch of functions and less complex than a full blown language. But DSLs > for existing domains. Just write it in the target language already. If > you > want to integrate with other stuff you can. If you want to switch > platforms > you can and you don''t have to throw awaw or rewrite a ton of stuff. > > On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 6:56 AM, Jenna Fox <a at creativepony.com> wrote: > >> I tried to use that crazy stuff recently and it just doesn''t work, in >> webkit at least. >> >> ? >> Jenna >> >> On 20/12/2011, at 4:34 PM, Steve Klabnik <steve at steveklabnik.com> wrote: >> >> > Yep! Granted, if you serve it with an XML MIME type, it must be able >> > to be parsed with an XML parser, so none of that >> > >> > <p> >> > <b>this <i>is</b> insane</i> >> > >> > stuff! But still... >> > >> > I actually like XML. There are some of us in Ruby... >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Camping-list mailing list >> > Camping-list at rubyforge.org >> > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/camping-list >> _______________________________________________ >> Camping-list mailing list >> Camping-list at rubyforge.org >> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/camping-list >> > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Get The Best Grades With the Least Amount of Time &Effort ! > http://click.lavabit.com/cizxa3hjywnx7odc65c5xxytqdzu49pqyanart1e93c9f68gmb4y/ > ____________________________________________________________________________________-- Twitter: http://twitter.com/bitpuffin/ Blog: http://bitpuffin.tumblr.com/ Github: http://github.com/milkshakepanda/
> I think people who don''t want to write HTML in HTML should write it in something they prefer.i like to write HTML in Ruby, {attr: :val} for elements, [] for lists of elements, and "" for..strings def H _ case _ when Hash then ''<''+(_[:_]||:div).to_s+(_.keys-[:_,:c]).map{|a| '' ''+a.to_s+''=''+"''"+ _[a].to_s.hsub({"''"=>''%27'', ''>''=>''%3E'', ''<''=>''%3C''})+"''"}.join+''>''+ (_[:c] ? (H _[:c]) : '''')+ ''</''+(_[:_]||:div).to_s+''>'' when Array then _.map{|n|H n}.join else _.to_s end end irb(main):010:0> H [{style: "display:block", c: {_: :h1, c: "TESTING"}},(0..3).map{|i|"#{i}.."}] => "<div style=''display:block''><h1>TESTING</h1></div>0..1..2..3.."
I don''t think there are any ''shoulds'', but people writing code (including markup) which other people might one day need to understand would be wise to make it comprehensible, and probably therefore in a recognisable, readable syntax... which I think is the essence of Markaby and its legacy :-) DaveE> I think people who want to write HTML in HTML should write HTML in > HTML. > > I think people who don''t want to write HTML in HTML should write it > in something they prefer. > > Just my humble opinion. > > --Isak Andersson > > Den 2011-12-29 02:14:18 skrev Anthony Durity > <gravious at jollyrotten.org>: > >> I think people should write HTML in HTML, CSS in CSS, Javascript in >> Javascript, and Ruby in Ruby. >> >> I don''t get the fascination with DSLs for existing domains. DSLs >> for your >> own stuff is okay, where you need something that is more complex >> than a >> bunch of functions and less complex than a full blown language. But >> DSLs >> for existing domains. Just write it in the target language already. >> If you >> want to integrate with other stuff you can. If you want to switch >> platforms >> you can and you don''t have to throw awaw or rewrite a ton of stuff. >> >> On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 6:56 AM, Jenna Fox <a at creativepony.com> >> wrote: >> >>> I tried to use that crazy stuff recently and it just doesn''t work, >>> in >>> webkit at least. >>> >>> ? >>> Jenna >>> >>> On 20/12/2011, at 4:34 PM, Steve Klabnik <steve at steveklabnik.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Yep! Granted, if you serve it with an XML MIME type, it must be >>> able >>> > to be parsed with an XML parser, so none of that >>> > >>> > <p> >>> > <b>this <i>is</b> insane</i> >>> > >>> > stuff! But still... >>> > >>> > I actually like XML. There are some of us in Ruby...
Thanks for the summary Jenna - I dropped back from XHTML to HTML4.01 strict some time ago, then to HTML5, so for me the XML-like syntax permitted in HTML5 seems out of place. But I''m not losing sleep over it... for the discussion about Markaby I just thought it might be good to strip out anything unnecessary to reduce complexity - DaveE> XHTML5 is a fancy name for the way the HTML5 spec grudgingly allows > the use of XML-like syntax, allowing for XML Builders like current > markaby to be technically allowable as valid HTML. It''s not ''real'' > in that they don''t provide validators for it and browsers aren''t > supposed to parse it as XML or support any XML features. > > The HTML spec suggests it be avoided if possible, and I agree, on > the grounds that XML-style syntax gives people the incorrect > impression that a document maybe valid XML. In most cases, that''s > not true. It might also give people the impression that they could > use XML features, which is also not true. XHTML is a dead standard. > Long live HTML with XML-style boolean attributes and self closing > tags permitted! And long live Nokogiri/Beautiful Soup - the easy and > friendly way to parse any sort of document, regardless if it > pretends to be XML or is just plain friendly compact HTML. > > ? > Jenna Fox > > On Tuesday, 20 December 2011 at 10:09 AM, Dave Everitt wrote: > >>> Small note: XHTML did survive, it''s XHTML2 which didn''t: there''s an >>> XML version of HTML5 called XHTML5. >>> >>> We now return to your regularly scheduled discussion. >> >> I didn''t know about XHTML5 and can''t find any recent information? - >> DaveE >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Camping-list mailing list >> Camping-list at rubyforge.org >> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/camping-list > > _______________________________________________ > Camping-list mailing list > Camping-list at rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/camping-list-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://rubyforge.org/pipermail/camping-list/attachments/20111230/9996f319/attachment.html>