Ivan Kush via llvm-dev
2020-Jun-21 11:49 UTC
[llvm-dev] Inclusive language in LLVM: can we rename `job` in source code?
<div>Here we've began discussion about "master"</div><div><a href="https://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2020-June/142448.html">https://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2020-June/142448.html</a></div><div> </div><div>Lets remove Job word completely</div><div><pre>But as one can easily fact-check, in Russian (slavic?) language, for example, the word "Worker" can be translated as "Работник", "Рабочий". Similarly the word "Job" can be translated as "Работа". As you may notice, they all contain "Раб", which, as you can easily check, literally translates to "slave". To Russian people it doesn't seem very inclusive use words with such dubious origin. </pre></div><div> </div><div>We have many uses of Job word</div><div>https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/search?q=job&unscoped_q=job</div><div>-- <br />Best wishes,</div><div>Ivan Kush</div><div> </div>
Chris Lattner via llvm-dev
2020-Jun-21 19:01 UTC
[llvm-dev] Inclusive language in LLVM: can we rename `job` in source code?
> On Jun 21, 2020, at 4:49 AM, Ivan Kush via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote: > > Here we've began discussion about "master" > https://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2020-June/142448.html <https://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2020-June/142448.html> > > Lets remove Job word completely > But as one can easily fact-check, in Russian (slavic?) language, > for example, the word "Worker" can be translated as "Работник", "Рабочий". > Similarly the word "Job" can be translated as "Работа". > As you may notice, they all contain "Раб", which, as you can easily > check, literally translates to "slave". > To Russian people it doesn't seem very inclusive use words with such dubious origin. > > We have many uses of Job word > https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/search?q=job&unscoped_q=jobHi Ivan, Thank you for raising this issue. I haven’t heard much industry consensus that the word ‘job’ is a problem - are there other communities considering such a change? I’m concerned that a policy around “any English word that can be translated to an unfortunate term in another language” could be too broad to be useful. The discussion around “master" isn’t related to translations. -Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/attachments/20200621/dedd878a/attachment.html>
Ivan Kush via llvm-dev
2020-Jun-21 19:41 UTC
[llvm-dev] Inclusive language in LLVM: can we rename `job` in source code?
<div> </div><div>Yes, broad. But what guys say: "You LLVM developers are all racists, because you use 'master' word"</div><div>Or broader: "You all developers are all racists, because you use 'master' word". We are not racists, but other guys think so.</div><div>So let's begin consistent and take into account all nations and languages. Not only Americans.</div><div> </div><div>Работа/Job contains a root Раб/Slave.</div><div><a href="https://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B0">https://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B0</a></div><div> </div><div>If we want completely eradicate a word Slave we should take into account all nations and languages!</div><div>You say that removing 'master' you won't mention Slave, but in Russia leaving a Job could mean Slave</div><div>-- <br />Best wishes,</div><div>Ivan Kush</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>21.06.2020, 22:01, "Chris Lattner" <clattner@nondot.org>:</div><blockquote><div style="word-wrap:break-word"> <div> <blockquote><div>On Jun 21, 2020, at 4:49 AM, Ivan Kush via llvm-dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> wrote:</div> <div><div>Here we've began discussion about "master"</div><div><a href="https://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2020-June/142448.html">https://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2020-June/142448.html</a></div><div> </div><div>Lets remove Job word completely</div><div><pre>But as one can easily fact-check, in Russian (slavic?) language, for example, the word "Worker" can be translated as "Работник", "Рабочий". Similarly the word "Job" can be translated as "Работа". As you may notice, they all contain "Раб", which, as you can easily check, literally translates to "slave". To Russian people it doesn't seem very inclusive use words with such dubious origin. </pre></div><div> </div><div>We have many uses of Job word</div><div><a href="https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/search?q=job&unscoped_q=job">https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/search?q=job&unscoped_q=job</a></div></div></blockquote></div><div>Hi Ivan,</div><div> </div><div>Thank you for raising this issue. I haven’t heard much industry consensus that the word ‘job’ is a problem - are there other communities considering such a change?</div><div> </div><div>I’m concerned that a policy around “any English word that can be translated to an unfortunate term in another language” could be too broad to be useful. The discussion around “master" isn’t related to translations.</div><div> </div><div>-Chris</div></div></blockquote>
via llvm-dev
2020-Jun-23 15:57 UTC
[llvm-dev] Inclusive language in LLVM: can we rename `job` in source code?
Agreed. While we are at it, we should also show our support of LGBTQP+ community. After all we wouldn't want to get cancelled like JKR after her transfobic tweet. How exactly should such changes in LLVM look is up to discussion but there's a perfect example from a related issue: female/male (connectors). Apart from the fact that there's no such thing as gender (in a biological context) it's also confusing because even those who explicitly identify as women don't necessarily have to be "on the receiving end". Ergo, proper replacement terms would be active/passive. - P.A. ---------- Původní e-mail ---------- Od: Ivan Kush via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> Komu: llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> Datum: 21. 6. 2020 13:49:54 Předmět: [llvm-dev] Inclusive language in LLVM: can we rename `job` in source code? Here we've began discussion about "master" https://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2020-June/142448.html Lets remove Job word completely But as one can easily fact-check, in Russian (slavic?) language, for example, the word "Worker" can be translated as "Работник", "Рабочий". Similarly the word "Job" can be translated as "Работа". As you may notice, they all contain "Раб", which, as you can easily check, literally translates to "slave". To Russian people it doesn't seem very inclusive use words with such dubious origin. We have many uses of Job word https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/search?q=job&unscoped_q=job -- Best wishes, Ivan Kush _______________________________________________ LLVM Developers mailing list llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
Tanya Lattner via llvm-dev
2020-Jun-23 23:47 UTC
[llvm-dev] Inclusive language in LLVM: can we rename `job` in source code?
These kinds of emails are not appropriate for this mailing list. Please review our Code of Conduct (https://llvm.org/docs/CodeOfConduct.html) and keep the discussion on this mailing list LLVM development based. Thank you, Tanya> On Jun 23, 2020, at 8:57 AM, via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote: > > Agreed. > While we are at it, we should also show our support of LGBTQP+ community. After all we wouldn't want to get cancelled like JKR after her transfobic tweet. > How exactly should such changes in LLVM look is up to discussion but there's a perfect example from a related issue: female/male (connectors). Apart from the fact that there's no such thing as gender (in a biological context) it's also confusing because even those who explicitly identify as women don't necessarily have to be "on the receiving end". Ergo, proper replacement terms would be active/passive. > - P.A. > > ---------- Původní e-mail ---------- > > Od: Ivan Kush via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> > > Komu: llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> > > Datum: 21. 6. 2020 13:49:54 > > Předmět: [llvm-dev] Inclusive language in LLVM: can we rename `job` in > source code? > > Here we've began discussion about "master" > https://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2020-June/142448.html > > Lets remove Job word completely > But as one can easily fact-check, in Russian (slavic?) language, > for example, the word "Worker" can be translated as "Работник", "Рабочий". > Similarly the word "Job" can be translated as "Работа". > As you may notice, they all contain "Раб", which, as you can easily > check, literally translates to "slave". > To Russian people it doesn't seem very inclusive use words with such dubious origin. > > > We have many uses of Job word > https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/search?q=job&unscoped_q=job > -- > Best wishes, > Ivan Kush > > > _______________________________________________ > LLVM Developers mailing list > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev > _______________________________________________ > LLVM Developers mailing list > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev