llvm dev - May 2020 - RFC: Deleting git-svn folder (git-llvm, git-svnrevert, git-svnup)

@Zola, Eric,


I really feel the communication and reasoning here is problematic.

 From my perspective, you removed stuff "we don't need", ignoring 
whether it is used, and then let people figure out how to deal with the 
result.

What I most dislike about the process most is how questions and concerns 
are then ignored or played down.


Thanks,

   Johannes



On 5/12/20 2:10 PM, Keane, Erich via llvm-dev wrote:
> FWIW, if you do your development in git-branches, it is a little more than
that.  IT ends up being:
>
> git push origin HEAD:master.
>
> Which is somewhat easy to mess up.  For example, I inverted the HEAD/master
at one point and ended up creating a branch named “HEAD” at one point.
>
> From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org> On Behalf Of Eric
Christopher via llvm-dev
> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2020 11:59 AM
> To: Hiroshi Yamauchi <yamauchi at google.com>
> Cc: llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
> Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Deleting git-svn folder (git-llvm,
git-svnrevert, git-svnup)
>
> Just push :)
>
> On Tue, May 12, 2020, 8:46 AM Hiroshi Yamauchi <yamauchi at
google.com<mailto:yamauchi at google.com>> wrote:
> I was also using "git llvm push" to commit, sort of out of habit.
What's a recommended, alternative way to push?
>
> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:57 AM Johannes Doerfert via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>>
wrote:
>
> I was actually using `git llvm` in my daily workflow.
>
> Could you explain why we want people to move away from that script?
>
> In addition to the convenience, it prevented me from accidentally creating
a new branch (which I did before with push once).
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>    Johannes
>
>
>
>
> On 5/11/20 11:43 AM, Zola Bridges via llvm-dev wrote:
>
> Deleted this morning. Thanks!
>
> Zola Bridges
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 2:35 PM Eric Christopher <echristo at
gmail.com><mailto:echristo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Giving at least one explicit:
>
>
>
> Sounds good to me.
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 12:01 PM Zola Bridges via llvm-dev <
>
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>>
wrote:
>
>
>
> Here is a link to the patch: https://reviews.llvm.org/D79348
>
>
>
> Zola Bridges
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 11:50 AM Zola Bridges <zbrid at
google.com><mailto:zbrid at google.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi everyone,
>
>
>
> I would like to delete this folder of svn to git migration tools.
>
> https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/tree/master/llvm/utils/git-svn
>
>
>
> My understanding of these tools is that they were useful for when we
>
> were migrating between Git and SVN, but now, since the migration is
>
> complete, they can be deleted as they are either unnecessary or there are
>
> other more common workflow options (ie git llvm push --> git push).
>
>
>
>     - Is there any reason these scripts should continue to exist that
>
>     I'm not aware of?
>
>     - I'd like to delete these next Monday. Is that timeline
>
>     unacceptable to anyone?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Zola Bridges
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> LLVM Developers mailing list
>
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
>
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> LLVM Developers mailing list
>
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
>
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
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On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 1:50 PM Johannes Doerfert via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> @Zola, Eric,
>
>
> I really feel the communication and reasoning here is problematic.
>
> From my perspective, you removed stuff "we don't need",
ignoring whether
> it is used, and then let people figure out how to deal with the result.
>
> What I most dislike about the process most is how questions and concerns
> are then ignored or played down.
>
Honestly, I think Zola did more than I'd have expected to be done for this
- sending out the proposal (to llvm-dev, not just llvm-commits, even) &
waiting a week for feedback.

Suggesting that LLVM developers (the, apparently rather small (based on
feedback from before/after this change) number of them) migrate to the
standard git functionality for contributing to git projects seems like it's
in line with discussions I recall seeing before and after the git migration
- that the git-llvm scripts were migration tools (there was some discussion
about whether they might be used for more post-migration, to enforce
certain constraints, etc - but those ideas were not accepted/moved forward
with).

I have some concern about adding these scripts back in as they may lead to
greater divergence in developer experience and/or become less relevant over
time and a weird thing for newcomers to stumble over, perhaps. But I don't
feel /that/ strongly, if other folks particularly prefer using them, they
seem mostly harmless.

- Dave
>
> Thanks,
>
>   Johannes
>
>
>
> On 5/12/20 2:10 PM, Keane, Erich via llvm-dev wrote:
>
> FWIW, if you do your development in git-branches, it is a little more than
that.  IT ends up being:
>
> git push origin HEAD:master.
>
> Which is somewhat easy to mess up.  For example, I inverted the HEAD/master
at one point and ended up creating a branch named “HEAD” at one point.
>
> From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org>
<llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org> On Behalf Of Eric Christopher via
llvm-dev
> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2020 11:59 AM
> To: Hiroshi Yamauchi <yamauchi at google.com> <yamauchi at
google.com>
> Cc: llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>
> Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Deleting git-svn folder (git-llvm,
git-svnrevert, git-svnup)
>
> Just push :)
>
> On Tue, May 12, 2020, 8:46 AM Hiroshi Yamauchi <yamauchi at
google.com<mailto:yamauchi at google.com> <yamauchi at
google.com>> wrote:
> I was also using "git llvm push" to commit, sort of out of habit.
What's a recommended, alternative way to push?
>
> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:57 AM Johannes Doerfert via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
>
> I was actually using `git llvm` in my daily workflow.
>
> Could you explain why we want people to move away from that script?
>
> In addition to the convenience, it prevented me from accidentally creating
a new branch (which I did before with push once).
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>   Johannes
>
>
>
>
> On 5/11/20 11:43 AM, Zola Bridges via llvm-dev wrote:
>
> Deleted this morning. Thanks!
>
> Zola Bridges
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 2:35 PM Eric Christopher <echristo at
gmail.com> <echristo at gmail.com><mailto:echristo at gmail.com>
<echristo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Giving at least one explicit:
>
>
>
> Sounds good to me.
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 12:01 PM Zola Bridges via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Here is a link to the patch: https://reviews.llvm.org/D79348
>
>
>
> Zola Bridges
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 11:50 AM Zola Bridges <zbrid at google.com>
<zbrid at google.com><mailto:zbrid at google.com> <zbrid at
google.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi everyone,
>
>
>
> I would like to delete this folder of svn to git migration tools.
> https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/tree/master/llvm/utils/git-svn
>
>
>
> My understanding of these tools is that they were useful for when we
>
> were migrating between Git and SVN, but now, since the migration is
>
> complete, they can be deleted as they are either unnecessary or there are
>
> other more common workflow options (ie git llvm push --> git push).
>
>
>
>    - Is there any reason these scripts should continue to exist that
>
>    I'm not aware of?
>
>    - I'd like to delete these next Monday. Is that timeline
>
>    unacceptable to anyone?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Zola Bridges
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing listllvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev
at lists.llvm.org> <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing listllvm-dev at
lists.llvm.orghttps://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
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TBH, all I initially asked for, still ask for, is a reason why `git
llvm` was being removed. Your email was the only one that hinted on a
reason.

(more below)

On 5/12/20 4:00 PM, David Blaikie wrote:
 > On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 1:50 PM Johannes Doerfert via llvm-dev <
 > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
 >
 >> @Zola, Eric,
 >>
 >>
 >> I really feel the communication and reasoning here is problematic.
 >>
 >> From my perspective, you removed stuff "we don't need",
ignoring whether
 >> it is used, and then let people figure out how to deal with the
result.
 >>
 >> What I most dislike about the process most is how questions and
concerns
 >> are then ignored or played down.
 >>
 > Honestly, I think Zola did more than I'd have expected to be done for 
this
 > - sending out the proposal (to llvm-dev, not just llvm-commits, even)
&
 > waiting a week for feedback.

Sure. That is why I did not mention the process that lead to the situation.
I think my email/questions are well in line with post-commit review
standards but people seem to disagree.


 > Suggesting that LLVM developers (the, apparently rather small (based on
 > feedback from before/after this change) number of them) migrate to the
 > standard git functionality for contributing to git projects seems 
like it's
 > in line with discussions I recall seeing before and after the git 
migration
 > - that the git-llvm scripts were migration tools (there was some 
discussion
 > about whether they might be used for more post-migration, to enforce
 > certain constraints, etc - but those ideas were not accepted/moved 
forward
 > with).

I recall no decision being made back in October 2019 and that we will
see how it goes. Till now I thought it went fine, or at least I haven't
understood what needed fixing.


 > I have some concern about adding these scripts back in as they may 
lead to
 > greater divergence in developer experience and/or become less 
relevant over
 > time and a weird thing for newcomers to stumble over, perhaps. But I 
don't
 > feel /that/ strongly, if other folks particularly prefer using them, they
 > seem mostly harmless.

I don't think I understand your concerns. Could you elaborate what
divergence you can see in the future? FWIW, if the scripts are broken
and people stumble over them it means no one takes care of them and
removal is adequate.


Thanks,
   Johannes


 > - Dave
 >
 >>
 >> Thanks,
 >>
 >>   Johannes
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> On 5/12/20 2:10 PM, Keane, Erich via llvm-dev wrote:
 >>
 >> FWIW, if you do your development in git-branches, it is a little 
more than that.  IT ends up being:
 >>
 >> git push origin HEAD:master.
 >>
 >> Which is somewhat easy to mess up.  For example, I inverted the 
HEAD/master at one point and ended up creating a branch named “HEAD” at 
one point.
 >>
 >> From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org> 
<llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org> On Behalf Of Eric Christopher via
llvm-dev
 >> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2020 11:59 AM
 >> To: Hiroshi Yamauchi <yamauchi at google.com> <yamauchi at
google.com>
 >> Cc: llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>
 >> Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Deleting git-svn folder (git-llvm, 
git-svnrevert, git-svnup)
 >>
 >> Just push :)
 >>
 >> On Tue, May 12, 2020, 8:46 AM Hiroshi Yamauchi 
<yamauchi at google.com<mailto:yamauchi at google.com> <yamauchi at
google.com>>
wrote:
 >> I was also using "git llvm push" to commit, sort of out of
habit.
What's a recommended, alternative way to push?
 >>
 >> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:57 AM Johannes Doerfert via llvm-dev 
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> 
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
 >>
 >> I was actually using `git llvm` in my daily workflow.
 >>
 >> Could you explain why we want people to move away from that script?
 >>
 >> In addition to the convenience, it prevented me from accidentally 
creating a new branch (which I did before with push once).
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> Cheers,
 >>
 >>   Johannes
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> On 5/11/20 11:43 AM, Zola Bridges via llvm-dev wrote:
 >>
 >> Deleted this morning. Thanks!
 >>
 >> Zola Bridges
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 2:35 PM Eric Christopher <echristo at
gmail.com>
<echristo at gmail.com><mailto:echristo at gmail.com> <echristo
at gmail.com> wrote:
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> Giving at least one explicit:
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> Sounds good to me.
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 12:01 PM Zola Bridges via llvm-dev <
 >> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> 
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> Here is a link to the patch: https://reviews.llvm.org/D79348
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> Zola Bridges
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 11:50 AM Zola Bridges <zbrid at
google.com>
<zbrid at google.com><mailto:zbrid at google.com> <zbrid at
google.com> wrote:
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> Hi everyone,
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> I would like to delete this folder of svn to git migration tools.
 >> https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/tree/master/llvm/utils/git-svn
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> My understanding of these tools is that they were useful for when we
 >>
 >> were migrating between Git and SVN, but now, since the migration is
 >>
 >> complete, they can be deleted as they are either unnecessary or 
there are
 >>
 >> other more common workflow options (ie git llvm push --> git push).
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>    - Is there any reason these scripts should continue to exist that
 >>
 >>    I'm not aware of?
 >>
 >>    - I'd like to delete these next Monday. Is that timeline
 >>
 >>    unacceptable to anyone?
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> Thanks,
 >>
 >> Zola Bridges
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> _______________________________________________
 >>
 >> LLVM Developers mailing list
 >> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> 
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
 >> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> _______________________________________________
 >>
 >> LLVM Developers mailing list
 >> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> 
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
 >> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
 >> _______________________________________________
 >> LLVM Developers mailing 
listllvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> 
<llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
 >>
 >>
 >> _______________________________________________
 >> LLVM Developers mailing 
listllvm-dev at
lists.llvm.orghttps://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
 >>
 >> _______________________________________________
 >> LLVM Developers mailing list
 >> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
 >> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
 >>
 >

On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 22:01, David Blaikie via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 1:50 PM Johannes Doerfert via llvm-dev <llvm-dev
at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>
>> @Zola, Eric,
>>
>>
>> I really feel the communication and reasoning here is problematic.
>>
>> From my perspective, you removed stuff "we don't need",
ignoring whether it is used, and then let people figure out how to deal with the
result.
>>
>> What I most dislike about the process most is how questions and
concerns are then ignored or played down.
>
> Honestly, I think Zola did more than I'd have expected to be done for
this - sending out the proposal (to llvm-dev, not just llvm-commits, even) &
waiting a week for feedback.
I agree with that - thank you Zola for your work to discuss this
proposal with the contributor community. The timing of the posting of
RFC was slightly awkward for LLVM Weekly - with the email hitting the
list after last week's issue was written. Just something to keep in
mind for anyone authoring an RFC they'd like to see advertised to LLVM
contributors who don't track the mailing list closely.

Best,

Alex