llvm dev - Nov 2019 - Fwd: RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Hello everyone,


*Short version:*I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat
(similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email
lists):
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
https://llvm.discourse.group/

Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and
still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this
thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both
services have dedicated feedback channels.

Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not
to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists
and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with
are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse
doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't
lost.


*Longer version & more details:*During this year's Women in Compilers
and
Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems
cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out
about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing
lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often
intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to
change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and
important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let
go of my precious IRC. ;]

We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the
most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form
discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse
server. You can find them here:
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
https://llvm.discourse.group/

There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks
to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse,
and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and
Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to
these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set
up. Some specific things we're already working on:

   - Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
   - Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place,
   etc.
      - See the plan here:
     
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
   - Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
   - Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
   similarly email-focused workflow.


We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try
using
them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger
barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had
serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam,
bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very
powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously
consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.

I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving
me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of
things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less
established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak
up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to
address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for
organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home
to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't
have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.

-Chandler
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Hi Chandler,

One of the things that came up in our discussion at the WiCT workshop as 
a barrier for new members of the community was the fact that key 
decisions are often made at round tables at developer meetings without 
involvement of the wider community, particularly the large fraction that 
is not able to travel to the West Coast.  More broadly, the opacity of 
the LLVM Project decision making was raised as something that is 
problematic when attempting to build a wider and more diverse community.

I therefore find it slightly ironic that this is being announced after a 
10-person discussion at an ancillary workshop that was attached to the 
main DevMeeting.  This seems like a trend in the wrong direction.

While I am in general in favour of creating new channels to extend the 
reach of the community, I don't believe that something like this that 
requires existing community members to participate to be useful should 
be launched without a wider discussion.  This paragraph in your 
announcement stood out:

 > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and
 > the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
 > longer-form discussions.

Who are these 'bunch of people'?  Why were they selected to make this 
decision (and by whom)?

Note that I don't object to the creation of a Discord server (though the 
'YOUR CONTENT' section of the T&Cs contains clauses that I'm
unwilling
to agree to and so I won't be participating), only to the process 
through which it was set up.

David


On 18/11/2019 07:48, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev
wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> *Short version:
> *I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC)
> and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
> 
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up 
> and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out 
> to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, 
> both services have dedicated feedback channels.
> 
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try 
> not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the 
> lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the 
> discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In 
> case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive
everything so
> it isn't lost.
> 
> *Longer version & more details:
> *During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks 
> expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a 
> non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out about, 
> learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists 
> for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often 
> intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant 
> to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling 
> and important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have 
> to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
> 
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and 
> the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for 
> longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord 
> and Discourse server. You can find them here:
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
> 
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for 
> folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in 
> Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both 
> Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of
> improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and
we
> can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
> 
>   * Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>   * Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one
>     place, etc.
>       o See the plan here:
>        
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>   * Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org <http://forums.llvm.org>.
>   * Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
>     similarly email-focused workflow.
> 
> 
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously
try
> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of 
> the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but 
> also have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a 
> constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. 
> Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows available and I think 
> we should seriously consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of 
> the email lists.
> 
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for 
> giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these 
> kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to 
> people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes 
> a lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this 
> also helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge 
> thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping 
> drive this message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting 
> these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her 
> help, especially around Discord bots.
> 
> -Chandler
> 
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>

> On Nov 18, 2019, at 9:48 AM, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> 
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not
to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and
Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are
fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't
work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
When will the project decide to shutdown one or the other? What will the
criteria be?

|  mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and
often intimidating for newcomers

Um… what?  While I know (via my own children) that folks nowadays use multiple
avenues of communication, it’s *really* hard to imagine email as a *mechanism*
being unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating.  Moving to a new mechanism wouldn’t
alter the fact of the very large number of strangers participating, which to my
mind would be the unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating part.
--paulr

From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org> On Behalf Of Chandler
Carruth via llvm-dev
Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 2:48 AM
To: llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
Subject: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's
discussions

Hello everyone,

Short version:
I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and
an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
https://llvm.discourse.group/

Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still
very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread
with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have
dedicated feedback channels.

Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to
create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and
Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are
fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't
work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.

Longer version & more details:
During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks expressed
very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount of
friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM.
Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are
unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long
been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at
WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it
means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]

We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the most
promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form
discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse
server. You can find them here:
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
https://llvm.discourse.group/

There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks to
clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse, and
I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and
Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to
these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up.
Some specific things we're already working on:

  *   Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
  *   Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place,
etc.

     *   See the plan here:
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61

  *   Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org<http://forums.llvm.org>.
  *   Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly
email-focused workflow.

We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try
using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger
barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had serious
infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for
several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based
workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse
long-term instead of the email lists.

I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving me
and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things,
but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in
the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I
really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these
long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT
workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch
of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it
without her help, especially around Discord bots.

-Chandler
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>
> |  mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult,
> and often intimidating for newcomers
>
> Um… what?  While I know (via my own children) that folks nowadays use
> multiple avenues of communication, it’s **really** hard to imagine email
> as a **mechanism** being unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating.  Moving to a
> new mechanism wouldn’t alter the fact of the very large number of strangers
> participating, which to my mind would be the
> unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating part.
> --paulr

In my (18) personal opinion, I feel that email is a somewhat difficult
mechanism of communicating, simply because email requires a different and
often complex style of formulating an email and etiquette compared to the
instant messaging style of being able to send a few worded messages due to
the low cost of sending messages and editing messages. The person writing
an email would have to make sure that whatever they send is correct the
first time since there is no editing of send messages and the only way to
keep a history through email is by either the subject or what is quoted.

A few benefit of using Discord or other new mechanisms that I prefer to
have over just emailing list are code formatting, being able to group
people together (devs of x, list moderators, etc), and the ability to
casually talk about stuff other than just meta or code related issues.
Being able to communicate with other developers casually helps reinforce
that the other devs are also human and not just a bunch of coders behind a
computer screen that might judge you for every word you might say.


On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 8:49 AM Robinson, Paul via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> |  mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult,
> and often intimidating for newcomers
>
>
>
> Um… what?  While I know (via my own children) that folks nowadays use
> multiple avenues of communication, it’s **really** hard to imagine email
> as a **mechanism** being unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating.  Moving to a
> new mechanism wouldn’t alter the fact of the very large number of strangers
> participating, which to my mind would be the
> unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating part.
>
> --paulr
>
>
>
> *From:* llvm-dev <llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org> *On Behalf Of
*Chandler
> Carruth via llvm-dev
> *Sent:* Monday, November 18, 2019 2:48 AM
> *To:* llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
> *Subject:* [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for
LLVM's
> discussions
>
>
>
> Hello everyone,
>
>
> *Short version: *I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat
> (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email
> lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and
> still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to
this
> thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both
> services have dedicated feedback channels.
>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not
> to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists
> and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion
with
> are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse
> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it
isn't lost.
>
>
> *Longer version & more details: *During this year's Women in
Compilers
> and Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication
> systems cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to
> find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and
> mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and
> often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and
> resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was
> compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it means
> I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the
> most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form
> discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse
> server. You can find them here:
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
>
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for
folks
> to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse,
> and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse
and
> Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements
to
> these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you
set
> up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>
>    - Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>    - Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one
>    place, etc.
>
>
>    - See the plan here:
>      
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>
>
>    - Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
>    - Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
>    similarly email-focused workflow.
>
>
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously
try
> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have
> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of
> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very
> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously
> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving
> me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of
> things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less
> established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak
> up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to
> address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for
> organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home
> to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I
wouldn't
> have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.
>
> -Chandler
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
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On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 2:49 PM Robinson, Paul via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> |  mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult,
> and often intimidating for newcomers
>
>
>
> Um… what?  While I know (via my own children) that folks nowadays use
> multiple avenues of communication, it’s **really** hard to imagine email
> as a **mechanism** being unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating.  Moving to a
> new mechanism wouldn’t alter the fact of the very large number of strangers
> participating, which to my mind would be the
> unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating part.
>
> --paulr
>
Some cases I can think of here:
 - unclear how to reply to a mail that was sent before you subscribed to
the ML (obvious newbie problem - generally I'd lurk on the web until I
wanted to reply)
 - unclear how to create a partitioned space (new mailing list) for a topic
 - subscription state/bounce messages/moderation are all IMO unclear if you
haven't used mailman before
 - the volume of traffic on (effectively-mandatory) lists is so high that
it requires using mail filters, most people don't use those


(A weak +1 to the concern about this change being made by some people in a
conference room somewhere - if that's the decision-making process that's
fine with me, but it'd be great to know that and have a defined way to get
issues on the agenda)
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On 18.11.2019 16:48, Robinson, Paul via llvm-dev wrote:
> |  mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and
often intimidating for newcomers
> 
> Um… what?  While I know (via my own children) that folks nowadays use
multiple avenues of communication, it’s **really** hard to imagine email as a
**mechanism** being unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating.  Moving to a new
mechanism wouldn’t alter the fact of the very large number of strangers
participating, which to my mind would be the unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating
part.
> 
> --paulr
+1 here.
mailing lists and phabricator are lasts things on my "new contributor's
barrier" list

> 
> *From:* llvm-dev <llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org> *On Behalf Of
*Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev
> *Sent:* Monday, November 18, 2019 2:48 AM
> *To:* llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
> *Subject:* [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for
LLVM's discussions
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> *Short version:
> *I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC)
and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
> 
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and
still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this
thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services
have dedicated feedback channels.
> 
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not
to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and
Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are
fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't
work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
> 
> *Longer version & more details:
> *During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount
of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to
LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are
unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long
been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at
WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it
means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
> 
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the
most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form
discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse
server. You can find them here:
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> 
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
> 
> 
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for
folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse,
and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and
Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to
these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up.
Some specific things we're already working on:
> 
>   * Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>   * Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place,
etc.
> 
>       o See the plan here:
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
> 
>   * Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org <http://forums.llvm.org>.
>   * Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
similarly email-focused workflow.
> 
> 
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously
try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had
serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam,
bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful
email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving
to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
> 
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving
me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things,
but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in
the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I
really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these
long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT
workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch
of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it
without her help, especially around Discord bots.
> 
> -Chandler
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>

While I understand the difficulty regarding mailing lists especially
if one isn't used to setting up mailboxes and filters to classify and
label emails and do think a web forum may be easier to use, I would
have concerns over Discord. Unlike IRC which has a fairly open
protocol and many clients and open source server implementations,
Discord is fairly hostile towards 3rd party clients, and has a
concerning history with regards to privacy. While that may not be a
concern for public channels, private messages are another matter
entirely. The protocol isn't entirely friendly and is relatively new,
which makes it inflexible to use compared to IRC. IRC clients are easy
to leave in tmux sessions and reconnect, as opposed to Discord where
something akin to a web browser is required for a somewhat stable
client and 3rd party clients, aside from stability issues, are flat
out against the terms of service (even if this aspect isn't actively
enforced). On top of that there are too many out of scope features
related to software project development, with Discord being far more
than a transit provider, unlike what a lot of IRC networks are classed
under. So as far as Discord goes, very strong -1 in my opinion.

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 7:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> Short version:
> I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC)
and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and
still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this
thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services
have dedicated feedback channels.
>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not
to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and
Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are
fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't
work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
>
> Longer version & more details:
> During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount
of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to
LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are
unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long
been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at
WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it
means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the
most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form
discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse
server. You can find them here:
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for
folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse,
and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and
Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to
these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up.
Some specific things we're already working on:
>
> Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
> Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place, etc.
>
> See the plan here:
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>
> Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
> Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly
email-focused workflow.
>
>
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously
try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had
serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam,
bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful
email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving
to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving
me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things,
but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in
the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I
really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these
long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT
workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch
of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it
without her help, especially around Discord bots.
>
> -Chandler
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev

Hey :/

It is weird for me to write something to this subject, because... as an newbie I
kinda feel like not being 'allowed' to do so. I'm following the
mailing list for quite a while and usually use it to ask questions. I'm not
sure how to become a bigger part of the LLVM and if I'm suitable for it...
I often use Discord to stay in touch with friends and for my hobby (Furries) -
however, I joined exactly one programming related server about Box2D (a physics
library) , again to ask questions. I found it pretty difficult to use Discord
for that, because there was one channel for asking questions. So I posted my
question, but the next reply was to the previous subject, burying my question
directly. So I think... this was bad :/ Sometimes you were lucky that people dug
out your old questions but... that rarely happened.
Also the general chats were kinda silent...

Since I'm only asking questions here, I would like a system where questions
are not being drowned by other discussions and the mailing list kinda works for
me. Sure, after a while my message might be buried as well, but it takes longer
then in Discord. Also the titles help me deciding if the subject is of interest
for me or not...

Maybe that helped? Sorry if not >o<

-----Original Message-----
From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org> On Behalf Of Kristina
Brooks via llvm-dev
Sent: 18 November 2019 16:29
To: Chandler Carruth <chandlerc at gmail.com>
Cc: llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's
discussions

While I understand the difficulty regarding mailing lists especially if one
isn't used to setting up mailboxes and filters to classify and label emails
and do think a web forum may be easier to use, I would have concerns over
Discord. Unlike IRC which has a fairly open protocol and many clients and open
source server implementations, Discord is fairly hostile towards 3rd party
clients, and has a concerning history with regards to privacy. While that may
not be a concern for public channels, private messages are another matter
entirely. The protocol isn't entirely friendly and is relatively new, which
makes it inflexible to use compared to IRC. IRC clients are easy to leave in
tmux sessions and reconnect, as opposed to Discord where something akin to a web
browser is required for a somewhat stable client and 3rd party clients, aside
from stability issues, are flat out against the terms of service (even if this
aspect isn't actively enforced). On top of that there are too many out of
scope features related to software project development, with Discord being far
more than a transit provider, unlike what a lot of IRC networks are classed
under. So as far as Discord goes, very strong -1 in my opinion.

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 7:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> Short version:
> I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC)
and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
> 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
> &auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
> badf539d389685869
>
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and
still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this
thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services
have dedicated feedback channels.
>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not
to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and
Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are
fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't
work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
>
> Longer version & more details:
> During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
> expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a
> non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out
> about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing
> lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often
> intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant
> to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was
> compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it
> means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the
most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form
discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse
server. You can find them here:
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
> 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
> &auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
> badf539d389685869
>
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for
folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse,
and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and
Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to
these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up.
Some specific things we're already working on:
>
> Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
> Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place, etc.
>
> See the plan here:
> https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
> 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group%2ft%2fmirroring%2dand%2darchiving%2dllvm%
> 2dmailing%2dlists%2don%2ddiscourse%2f61&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3
> 368bc108e8e&auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-ecf495cfb4c1
> 9b33b2115bb647dbc85b26fc4ca0
>
> Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
> Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly
email-focused workflow.
>
>
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously
try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had
serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam,
bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful
email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving
to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving
me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things,
but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in
the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I
really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these
long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT
workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch
of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it
without her help, especially around Discord bots.
>
> -Chandler
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
_______________________________________________
LLVM Developers mailing list
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
Als GmbH eingetragen im Handelsregister Bad Homburg v.d.H. HRB 9816, USt.ID-Nr.
DE 114 165 789 Geschäftsführer: Dr. Hiroshi Nakamura, Dr. Robert Plank, Markus
Bode, Heiko Lampert, Takashi Nagano, Takeshi Fukushima. Junichi Tajika

Since it's an RFC, I'll comment :-)

I don't have strong opinions about IRC vs Discord vs something else.

But the idea of abandoning the mailing lists is concerning to me. The
way I see it, the lists are core to the LLVM project, second in
importance only to the source code repository. Web forums tend to come
and go, but the lists have been around a long time and seem to be
working well.

Perhaps we could do other things to make the mailing lists more
accessible? When I meet university students, they're often familiar
with how to find our code and build it, but much less aware of the
mailing lists, and that one can use them to ask questions. Maybe we
should promote them in README.md, which is probably the first thing
new users would see these days?

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 8:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> Short version:
> I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC)
and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and
still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this
thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services
have dedicated feedback channels.
>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not
to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and
Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are
fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't
work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
>
> Longer version & more details:
> During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount
of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to
LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are
unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long
been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at
WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it
means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the
most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form
discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse
server. You can find them here:
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for
folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse,
and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and
Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to
these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up.
Some specific things we're already working on:
>
> Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
> Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place, etc.
>
> See the plan here:
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>
> Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
> Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly
email-focused workflow.
>
>
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously
try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had
serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam,
bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful
email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving
to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving
me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things,
but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in
the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I
really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these
long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT
workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch
of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it
without her help, especially around Discord bots.
>
> -Chandler
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev

The lists are working well for the people who are already invested in the
community though - as was identified by Chandler they aren't working as
well for new people.

I'm an insanely confident Scotsman with just about zero fear of any/all
social situations, and I've always found this mailing list to be utterly
terrifying (thus I've been a 10 year mostly-lurker).

My fear (unfounded as it probably is) is that I'll make a complete fool out
of myself asking a dumb question / proposing a stupid idea, tarishing what
little reputation I might have had. I know from others I've talked to over
the years this isn't a sentiment that I alone feel!

So +1 from me for anything we can do to help broaden the community.

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 4:03 PM Hans Wennborg via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> Since it's an RFC, I'll comment :-)
>
> I don't have strong opinions about IRC vs Discord vs something else.
>
> But the idea of abandoning the mailing lists is concerning to me. The
> way I see it, the lists are core to the LLVM project, second in
> importance only to the source code repository. Web forums tend to come
> and go, but the lists have been around a long time and seem to be
> working well.
>
> Perhaps we could do other things to make the mailing lists more
> accessible? When I meet university students, they're often familiar
> with how to find our code and build it, but much less aware of the
> mailing lists, and that one can use them to ask questions. Maybe we
> should promote them in README.md, which is probably the first thing
> new users would see these days?
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 8:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > Short version:
> > I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to
IRC)
> and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> > https://llvm.discourse.group/
> >
> > Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up
> and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out
to
> this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both
> services have dedicated feedback channels.
> >
> > Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try
> not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the
> lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the
discussion
> with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse
> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it
isn't lost.
> >
> > Longer version & more details:
> > During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
expressed
> very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount of
> friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to
> LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions
> are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I
> have long been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback
> from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to
> address. Even if it means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
> >
> > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and
> the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
> longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord
> and Discourse server. You can find them here:
> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> > https://llvm.discourse.group/
> >
> > There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great
for
> folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in
> Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both
> Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of
> improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and
we
> can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
> >
> > Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
> > Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place,
> etc.
> >
> > See the plan here:
>
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
> >
> > Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
> > Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
> similarly email-focused workflow.
> >
> >
> > We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to
seriously try
> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have
> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of
> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very
> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously
> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
> >
> > I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for
> giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these
> kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to
> people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a
> lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also
> helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to
> Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this
> message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set
> up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially
around
> Discord bots.
> >
> > -Chandler
> > _______________________________________________
> > LLVM Developers mailing list
> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>

-- 
Neil Henning
Senior Software Engineer Compiler
unity.com
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Regarding process...
> From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org> On Behalf Of
David
> Chisnall via llvm-dev
> ...
> While I am in general in favour of creating new channels to extend the
> reach of the community, I don't believe that something like this that
> requires existing community members to participate to be useful should
> be launched without a wider discussion.  This paragraph in your
> announcement stood out:
> 
>  > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there
and
>  > the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
>  > longer-form discussions.
> 
> Who are these 'bunch of people'?  Why were they selected to make
this
> decision (and by whom)?
If this is an LLVM Foundation fiat, we know who the self-selected set are.

If this is supposed to be a community-driven thing, I agree with David.
This thread is titled as an RFC but it's presented as a fait-accompli.
--paulr

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 8:49 AM Robinson, Paul via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> |  mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and
often intimidating for newcomers
>
>
>
> Um… what?  While I know (via my own children) that folks nowadays use
multiple avenues of communication, it’s *really* hard to imagine email as a
*mechanism* being unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating.  Moving to a new mechanism
wouldn’t alter the fact of the very large number of strangers participating,
which to my mind would be the unfamiliar/difficult/intimidating part.
FWIW, I agree with Paul.

I can't recall an instance when I had difficulty using, or was
intimidated by, email, for saying something on a mailing list.

I am very unclear as to what problem this Discourse thing is supposed
to solve. Being welcoming, or off-putting, has nothing to do with the
form of the communications medium IMO. It has much more to do with the
contents and style of the communication.

-- 
Stefan Teleman
stefan.teleman at gmail.com

> Web forums tend to come and go
If we do have a web forum, better to host it ourselves, then?
The few non-computer forums I've used are all self-hosted, which
is not always a good thing (one is very creaky indeed) but they
survive vendors disappearing, as web companies are prone to do.
--paulr

Can you elaborate on the rationale for choosing Discord over Slack?
Obviously Discord is free, but I suspect that isn't the primary motivating
factor.

For example, with Discord there is no easy way to link directly to a
particular post.  Search is also worse, and there is less availability of
useful plugins such as inserting code snippets, etc.  Discord also doesn't
do threading, which is a very useful feature that makes communication
easier.


On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 11:48 PM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
>
> *Short version:*I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat
> (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email
> lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and
> still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to
this
> thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both
> services have dedicated feedback channels.
>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not
> to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists
> and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion
with
> are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse
> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it
isn't lost.
>
>
> *Longer version & more details:*During this year's Women in
Compilers and
> Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems
> cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out
> about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing
> lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often
> intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to
> change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and
> important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let
> go of my precious IRC. ;]
>
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the
> most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form
> discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse
> server. You can find them here:
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for
folks
> to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse,
> and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse
and
> Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements
to
> these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you
set
> up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>
>    - Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>    - Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one
>    place, etc.
>       - See the plan here:
>      
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>    - Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
>    - Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
>    similarly email-focused workflow.
>
>
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously
try
> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have
> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of
> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very
> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously
> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving
> me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of
> things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less
> established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak
> up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to
> address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for
> organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home
> to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I
wouldn't
> have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.
>
> -Chandler
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
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> Perhaps we could do other things to make the mailing lists more
> accessible? When I meet university students, they're often familiar
> with how to find our code and build it, but much less aware of the
> mailing lists, and that one can use them to ask questions. Maybe we
> should promote them in README.md, which is probably the first thing
> new users would see these days?

In addition to promoting the mailing lists, it would probably be beneficial
to add at least a mention or a link to the contributing guide too since the
only link relating to how to contribute is "http://reviews.llvm.org/"
inside the sub-header, which most people gloss over and a link directly to
the Phabricator is one of the least helpful way to direct a potential
contributor from GitHub (especially if they don't know where to start in
Phabricator). Either adding a link to
https://llvm.org/docs/Contributing.html or adding the contents of it to the
README.md would help a lot more than requiring the contributor to google
"llvm contributing"

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 11:04 AM Hans Wennborg via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> Since it's an RFC, I'll comment :-)
>
> I don't have strong opinions about IRC vs Discord vs something else.
>
> But the idea of abandoning the mailing lists is concerning to me. The
> way I see it, the lists are core to the LLVM project, second in
> importance only to the source code repository. Web forums tend to come
> and go, but the lists have been around a long time and seem to be
> working well.
>
> Perhaps we could do other things to make the mailing lists more
> accessible? When I meet university students, they're often familiar
> with how to find our code and build it, but much less aware of the
> mailing lists, and that one can use them to ask questions. Maybe we
> should promote them in README.md, which is probably the first thing
> new users would see these days?
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 8:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > Short version:
> > I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to
IRC)
> and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> > https://llvm.discourse.group/
> >
> > Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up
> and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out
to
> this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both
> services have dedicated feedback channels.
> >
> > Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try
> not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the
> lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the
discussion
> with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse
> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it
isn't lost.
> >
> > Longer version & more details:
> > During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
expressed
> very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount of
> friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to
> LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions
> are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I
> have long been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback
> from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to
> address. Even if it means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
> >
> > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and
> the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
> longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord
> and Discourse server. You can find them here:
> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> > https://llvm.discourse.group/
> >
> > There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great
for
> folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in
> Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both
> Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of
> improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and
we
> can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
> >
> > Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
> > Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place,
> etc.
> >
> > See the plan here:
>
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
> >
> > Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
> > Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
> similarly email-focused workflow.
> >
> >
> > We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to
seriously try
> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have
> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of
> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very
> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously
> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
> >
> > I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for
> giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these
> kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to
> people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a
> lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also
> helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to
> Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this
> message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set
> up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially
around
> Discord bots.
> >
> > -Chandler
> > _______________________________________________
> > LLVM Developers mailing list
> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
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On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 2:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> Short version:
> I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC)
and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and
still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this
thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services
have dedicated feedback channels.
>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not
to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and
Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are
fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't
work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
Are there any existing open source projects that use these systems?
Do they use them as a substitute for the mailing list, or as a
supplement for people who wish to avoid email?

>
> For example, with Discord there is no easy way to link directly to a
> particular post.  Search is also worse, and there is less availability of
> useful plugins such as inserting code snippets, etc.  Discord also
doesn't
> do threading, which is a very useful feature that makes communication
> easier.

Actually, for Discord, it is possible to quote someone using the `> For
example, ....` format or by clicking the triple dot next to a message and
clicking "Copy Link" which results in something like
https://discordapp.com/channels/636084430946959380/642340762620657675/645977260246958081

https://support.discordapp.com/hc/en-us/articles/210298617-Markdown-Text-101-Chat-Formatting-Bold-Italic-Underline-

    "CODE BLOCKS"
    "BLOCK QUOTES"

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 12:27 PM Zachary Turner via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> Can you elaborate on the rationale for choosing Discord over Slack?
> Obviously Discord is free, but I suspect that isn't the primary
motivating
> factor.
>
> For example, with Discord there is no easy way to link directly to a
> particular post.  Search is also worse, and there is less availability of
> useful plugins such as inserting code snippets, etc.  Discord also
doesn't
> do threading, which is a very useful feature that makes communication
> easier.
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 11:48 PM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>>
>> *Short version:*I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time
chat
>> (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to
email
>> lists):
>> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>>
>> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up
>> and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach
out to
>> this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also,
both
>> services have dedicated feedback channels.
>>
>> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try
not
>> to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the
lists
>> and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion
with
>> are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse
>> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it
isn't lost.
>>
>>
>> *Longer version & more details:*During this year's Women in
Compilers
>> and Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication
>> systems cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to
>> find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and
>> mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult,
and
>> often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and
>> resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was
>> compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it
means
>> I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>>
>> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and
>> the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
>> longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial
Discord
>> and Discourse server. You can find them here:
>> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>>
>> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for
folks
>> to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in
Discourse,
>> and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both
Discourse and
>> Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of
improvements to
>> these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get
you set
>> up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>>
>>    - Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>>    - Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one
>>    place, etc.
>>       - See the plan here:
>>      
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>>    - Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
>>    - Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
>>    similarly email-focused workflow.
>>
>>
>> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to
seriously try
>> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of
the
>> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also
have
>> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow
of
>> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has
very
>> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should
seriously
>> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>>
>> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for
>> giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these
>> kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to
>> people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It
takes a
>> lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also
>> helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks
to
>> Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this
>> message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things
set
>> up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially
around
>> Discord bots.
>>
>> -Chandler
>> _______________________________________________
>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
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Re Discord in particular:
> From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org> On Behalf Of
David
> Chisnall via llvm-dev
> Note that I don't object to the creation of a Discord server (though
the
> 'YOUR CONTENT' section of the T&Cs contains clauses that
I'm unwilling
> to agree to and so I won't be participating), 
Yeah... "We're calling it Your Content but we (Discord) get to do
whatever
we want with it and you can't complain" doesn't sound appealing.

I was never on IRC so I probably don't care so much about Discord, and
even less so after reading their terms.
--paulr

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 9:49 AM Sam Kerner via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 2:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > Short version:
> > I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to
IRC)
> and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> > https://llvm.discourse.group/
> >
> > Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up
> and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out
to
> this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both
> services have dedicated feedback channels.
> >
> > Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try
> not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the
> lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the
discussion
> with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse
> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it
isn't lost.
>
> Are there any existing open source projects that use these systems?
> Do they use them as a substitute for the mailing list, or as a
> supplement for people who wish to avoid email?

I don't know for Discord, but the Swift project is using Discourse:
https://forums.swift.org
They started with a bunch of mailing-lists and migrated to Discourse later,
they imported all the mailing-list archives into Discourse itself I believe.

-- 
Mehdi
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Hi all,

+1 from my side for using "faster" or "more direct"
communication channels such
as Discord (no strong opinion on the choice of any particular tool here) for
informal chats and discussions on a "support level". This is includes
user
questions but also questions that can be easily answered using community
knowledge. I think of things like "How to I build clang for option
abc" or
"How do I access all instructions in a basic block?"

Strong -1 for any attempts to replace the mailing list (but no strong opinion on
providing additional possibilities to interact with it, such as mirrored forums
etc.) as primary and definitive communication channel.

It should be absolutely enough to follow llvm-dev to be completely informed
about any major RFC, discussion or design decisions.

    David
> On 18. Nov 2019, at 08:48, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> Short version:
> I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC)
and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362 <https://discord.gg/xS7Z362>
> https://llvm.discourse.group/ <https://llvm.discourse.group/>
> 
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and
still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this
thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services
have dedicated feedback channels.
> 
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not
to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and
Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are
fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't
work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
> 
> Longer version & more details:
> During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount
of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to
LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are
unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long
been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at
WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it
means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
> 
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the
most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form
discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse
server. You can find them here:
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362 <https://discord.gg/xS7Z362>
> https://llvm.discourse.group/ <https://llvm.discourse.group/>
> 
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for
folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse,
and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and
Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to
these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up.
Some specific things we're already working on:
> Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
> Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place, etc.
> See the plan here:
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
<https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61>
> Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org <http://forums.llvm.org/>.
> Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly
email-focused workflow.
> 
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously
try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had
serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam,
bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful
email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving
to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
> 
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving
me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things,
but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in
the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I
really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these
long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT
workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch
of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it
without her help, especially around Discord bots.
> 
> -Chandler
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
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On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 11:32 AM David Tellenbach via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>  Hi all,
>
> +1 from my side for using "faster" or "more direct"
communication channels
> such
> as Discord (no strong opinion on the choice of any particular tool here)
> for
> informal chats and discussions on a "support level". This is
includes user
> questions but also questions that can be easily answered using community
> knowledge. I think of things like "How to I build clang for option
abc" or
> "How do I access all instructions in a basic block?"
>
> Strong -1 for any attempts to replace the mailing list (but no strong
> opinion on
> providing additional possibilities to interact with it, such as mirrored
> forums
> etc.) as primary and definitive communication channel.
>
> It should be absolutely enough to follow llvm-dev to be completely informed
> about any major RFC, discussion or design decisions.
>
If your concern is to be able to stay informed by email, then subscribing
to the right "category" on Discourse should provide exactly this
(everyone
can select their notification preferences on Discourse).
Is there something more you need that I missed?

Best,

-- 
Mehdi



>
>     David
>
> On 18. Nov 2019, at 08:48, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
>
> *Short version:*I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat
> (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email
> lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and
> still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to
this
> thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both
> services have dedicated feedback channels.
>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not
> to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists
> and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion
with
> are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse
> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it
isn't lost.
>
>
> *Longer version & more details:*During this year's Women in
Compilers and
> Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems
> cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out
> about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing
> lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often
> intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to
> change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and
> important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let
> go of my precious IRC. ;]
>
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the
> most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form
> discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse
> server. You can find them here:
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for
folks
> to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse,
> and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse
and
> Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements
to
> these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you
set
> up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>
>    - Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>    - Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one
>    place, etc.
>       - See the plan here:
>      
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>    - Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
>    - Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
>    similarly email-focused workflow.
>
>
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously
try
> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have
> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of
> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very
> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously
> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving
> me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of
> things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less
> established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak
> up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to
> address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for
> organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home
> to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I
wouldn't
> have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.
>
> -Chandler
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
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On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 at 07:29, Kristina Brooks via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> While I understand the difficulty regarding mailing lists especially
> if one isn't used to setting up mailboxes and filters to classify and
> label emails and do think a web forum may be easier to use, I would
> have concerns over Discord. Unlike IRC which has a fairly open
> protocol and many clients and open source server implementations,
> Discord is fairly hostile towards 3rd party clients, and has a
> concerning history with regards to privacy. While that may not be a
> concern for public channels, private messages are another matter
> entirely. The protocol isn't entirely friendly and is relatively new,
> which makes it inflexible to use compared to IRC. IRC clients are easy
> to leave in tmux sessions and reconnect,
I think "easy" is very subjective here. It is "easy" if you
already

* Know how to use Tmux (or screen).
* Have an always up server that you can have your IRC client running on.
* Are familiar with IRC.

I think it would be incorrect to assume that every person interested
in hacking on LLVM is willing (or knows how to) set this up.
> as opposed to Discord where
> something akin to a web browser is required for a somewhat stable
> client
Is there anything wrong with asking people to use Discord via a web
browser? To do many things these days you **need a web browser**. If I
compare the easy of use of using a web browser vs your proposed IRC
set up, the web browser wins, hands down.
There may be a more comfortable middle ground here if there is strong
community resistance to using a service like Discord. There are web
browser IRC clients that might be considered "good enough" that the
barrier to entry is low enough if we clearly document how newcomers
can use it to get started in the community.

Personally I've not used Discord much but I am going to try it for a
few weeks to see how it goes.

Dan.

David,

I'm glad you mentioned Discord's T&Cs. I'm not generally
concerned about these kinds of things, but Discord's seems particularly
aggressive. Particularly the phrase "perpetual, nonexclusive, transferable,
royalty-free, sublicensable, and worldwide license" is... a lot. Since LLVM
is a permissively licensed project I assume many of our contributors care about
licensing, and that might be a shared concern.

Since people have mentioned Slack on this thread, have you by chance looked at
Slack's ToS? The similar wording from Slack's ToS is, "worldwide,
non-exclusive, limited term license", which seems a lot less grabby. Would
you be less resistant to Slack?

-Chris
> On Nov 18, 2019, at 1:48 AM, David Chisnall via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Chandler,
> 
> One of the things that came up in our discussion at the WiCT workshop as a
barrier for new members of the community was the fact that key decisions are
often made at round tables at developer meetings without involvement of the
wider community, particularly the large fraction that is not able to travel to
the West Coast.  More broadly, the opacity of the LLVM Project decision making
was raised as something that is problematic when attempting to build a wider and
more diverse community.
> 
> I therefore find it slightly ironic that this is being announced after a
10-person discussion at an ancillary workshop that was attached to the main
DevMeeting.  This seems like a trend in the wrong direction.
> 
> While I am in general in favour of creating new channels to extend the
reach of the community, I don't believe that something like this that
requires existing community members to participate to be useful should be
launched without a wider discussion.  This paragraph in your announcement stood
out:
> 
> > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and
> > the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
> > longer-form discussions.
> 
> Who are these 'bunch of people'?  Why were they selected to make
this decision (and by whom)?
> 
> Note that I don't object to the creation of a Discord server (though
the 'YOUR CONTENT' section of the T&Cs contains clauses that I'm
unwilling to agree to and so I won't be participating), only to the process
through which it was set up.
> 
> David
> 
> 
> On 18/11/2019 07:48, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev wrote:
>> Hello everyone,
>> *Short version:
>> *I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to
IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
>> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up
and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to
this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both
services have dedicated feedback channels.
>> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try
not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists
and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are
fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't
work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
>> *Longer version & more details:
>> *During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount
of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to
LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are
unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long
been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at
WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it
means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and
the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form
discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse
server. You can find them here:
>> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for
folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse,
and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and
Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to
these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up.
Some specific things we're already working on:
>>  * Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>>  * Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one
>>    place, etc.
>>      o See the plan here:
>>       
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
<https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61>
>>  * Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org <http://forums.llvm.org/>
<http://forums.llvm.org <http://forums.llvm.org/>>.
>>  * Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
>>    similarly email-focused workflow.
>> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to
seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one
of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also
have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of
spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very
powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously
consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for
giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of
things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less
established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up
like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address
these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT
workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch
of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it
without her help, especially around Discord bots.
>> -Chandler
>> _______________________________________________
>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
<https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev>
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> On Nov 18, 2019, at 13:18, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> 
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously
try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
bigger barriers to entry.
I’m not sure IRC is really a barrier to general llvm work entry. It’s hardly
used anymore. There’s a fairly small group of people regularly active there
these days, and most people are getting by without it. I do think it would be
better if it was more active, or replaced/supplemented with something that would
draw more people in.

For me personally, the main benefit of discord or something else over IRC is
really a workaround for being able to access it on the corporate network. It’s
blocked when I’m on the VPN, so whether I’m on IRC irritatingly depends on
whether I need to use the VPN at the moment.

-Matt
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---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Daniel Chapiesky <dchapiesky2 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 1:48 AM
Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's
discussions
To: Gaier, Bjoern <Bjoern.Gaier at horiba.com>


Bjoern said:

" I found it pretty difficult to use Discord for that, because there was
one channel for asking questions. So I posted my question, but the next
reply was to the previous subject, burying my question directly. So I
think... this was bad"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well said Bjoern.

That and discussions won't be archived or usefully searchable - discord
search is horrible



On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 10:42 AM Gaier, Bjoern via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> Hey :/
>
> It is weird for me to write something to this subject, because... as an
> newbie I kinda feel like not being 'allowed' to do so. I'm
following the
> mailing list for quite a while and usually use it to ask questions. I'm
not
> sure how to become a bigger part of the LLVM and if I'm suitable for
it...
> I often use Discord to stay in touch with friends and for my hobby
> (Furries) - however, I joined exactly one programming related server about
> Box2D (a physics library) , again to ask questions. I found it pretty
> difficult to use Discord for that, because there was one channel for asking
> questions. So I posted my question, but the next reply was to the previous
> subject, burying my question directly. So I think... this was bad :/
> Sometimes you were lucky that people dug out your old questions but... that
> rarely happened.
> Also the general chats were kinda silent...
>
> Since I'm only asking questions here, I would like a system where
> questions are not being drowned by other discussions and the mailing list
> kinda works for me. Sure, after a while my message might be buried as well,
> but it takes longer then in Discord. Also the titles help me deciding if
> the subject is of interest for me or not...
>
> Maybe that helped? Sorry if not >o<
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org> On Behalf Of
Kristina
> Brooks via llvm-dev
> Sent: 18 November 2019 16:29
> To: Chandler Carruth <chandlerc at gmail.com>
> Cc: llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
> Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for
> LLVM's discussions
>
> While I understand the difficulty regarding mailing lists especially if
> one isn't used to setting up mailboxes and filters to classify and
label
> emails and do think a web forum may be easier to use, I would have concerns
> over Discord. Unlike IRC which has a fairly open protocol and many clients
> and open source server implementations, Discord is fairly hostile towards
> 3rd party clients, and has a concerning history with regards to privacy.
> While that may not be a concern for public channels, private messages are
> another matter entirely. The protocol isn't entirely friendly and is
> relatively new, which makes it inflexible to use compared to IRC. IRC
> clients are easy to leave in tmux sessions and reconnect, as opposed to
> Discord where something akin to a web browser is required for a somewhat
> stable client and 3rd party clients, aside from stability issues, are flat
> out against the terms of service (even if this aspect isn't actively
> enforced). On top of that there are too many out of scope features related
> to software project development, with Discord being far more than a transit
> provider, unlike what a lot of IRC networks are classed under. So as far as
> Discord goes, very strong -1 in my opinion.
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 7:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > Short version:
> > I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to
IRC)
> and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> > https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
> >
3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
> >
&auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
> > badf539d389685869
> >
> > Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up
> and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out
to
> this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both
> services have dedicated feedback channels.
> >
> > Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try
> not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the
> lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the
discussion
> with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse
> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it
isn't lost.
> >
> > Longer version & more details:
> > During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
> > expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a
> > non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out
> > about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing
> > lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often
> > intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant
> > to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was
> > compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it
> > means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
> >
> > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and
> the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
> longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord
> and Discourse server. You can find them here:
> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> > https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
> >
3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
> >
&auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
> > badf539d389685869
> >
> > There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great
for
> folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in
> Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both
> Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of
> improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and
we
> can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
> >
> > Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
> > Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place,
> etc.
> >
> > See the plan here:
> > https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
> > 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group%2ft%2fmirroring%2dand%2darchiving%2dllvm%
> >
2dmailing%2dlists%2don%2ddiscourse%2f61&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3
> >
368bc108e8e&auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-ecf495cfb4c1
> > 9b33b2115bb647dbc85b26fc4ca0
> >
> > Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
> > Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
> similarly email-focused workflow.
> >
> >
> > We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to
seriously try
> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have
> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of
> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very
> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously
> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
> >
> > I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for
> giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these
> kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to
> people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a
> lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also
> helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to
> Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this
> message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set
> up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially
around
> Discord bots.
> >
> > -Chandler
> > _______________________________________________
> > LLVM Developers mailing list
> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
> Als GmbH eingetragen im Handelsregister Bad Homburg v.d.H. HRB 9816,
> USt.ID-Nr. DE 114 165 789 Geschäftsführer: Dr. Hiroshi Nakamura, Dr. Robert
> Plank, Markus Bode, Heiko Lampert, Takashi Nagano, Takeshi Fukushima.
> Junichi Tajika
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
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But is it better or worse than IRC in this regard?

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 10:49 PM Daniel Chapiesky via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Daniel Chapiesky <dchapiesky2 at gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 1:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for
> LLVM's discussions
> To: Gaier, Bjoern <Bjoern.Gaier at horiba.com>
>
>
> Bjoern said:
>
> " I found it pretty difficult to use Discord for that, because there
was
> one channel for asking questions. So I posted my question, but the next
> reply was to the previous subject, burying my question directly. So I
> think... this was bad"
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Well said Bjoern.
>
> That and discussions won't be archived or usefully searchable - discord
> search is horrible
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 10:42 AM Gaier, Bjoern via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
>> Hey :/
>>
>> It is weird for me to write something to this subject, because... as an
>> newbie I kinda feel like not being 'allowed' to do so. I'm
following the
>> mailing list for quite a while and usually use it to ask questions.
I'm not
>> sure how to become a bigger part of the LLVM and if I'm suitable
for it...
>> I often use Discord to stay in touch with friends and for my hobby
>> (Furries) - however, I joined exactly one programming related server
about
>> Box2D (a physics library) , again to ask questions. I found it pretty
>> difficult to use Discord for that, because there was one channel for
asking
>> questions. So I posted my question, but the next reply was to the
previous
>> subject, burying my question directly. So I think... this was bad :/
>> Sometimes you were lucky that people dug out your old questions but...
that
>> rarely happened.
>> Also the general chats were kinda silent...
>>
>> Since I'm only asking questions here, I would like a system where
>> questions are not being drowned by other discussions and the mailing
list
>> kinda works for me. Sure, after a while my message might be buried as
well,
>> but it takes longer then in Discord. Also the titles help me deciding
if
>> the subject is of interest for me or not...
>>
>> Maybe that helped? Sorry if not >o<
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org> On Behalf Of
Kristina
>> Brooks via llvm-dev
>> Sent: 18 November 2019 16:29
>> To: Chandler Carruth <chandlerc at gmail.com>
>> Cc: llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
>> Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for
>> LLVM's discussions
>>
>> While I understand the difficulty regarding mailing lists especially if
>> one isn't used to setting up mailboxes and filters to classify and
label
>> emails and do think a web forum may be easier to use, I would have
concerns
>> over Discord. Unlike IRC which has a fairly open protocol and many
clients
>> and open source server implementations, Discord is fairly hostile
towards
>> 3rd party clients, and has a concerning history with regards to
privacy.
>> While that may not be a concern for public channels, private messages
are
>> another matter entirely. The protocol isn't entirely friendly and
is
>> relatively new, which makes it inflexible to use compared to IRC. IRC
>> clients are easy to leave in tmux sessions and reconnect, as opposed to
>> Discord where something akin to a web browser is required for a
somewhat
>> stable client and 3rd party clients, aside from stability issues, are
flat
>> out against the terms of service (even if this aspect isn't
actively
>> enforced). On top of that there are too many out of scope features
related
>> to software project development, with Discord being far more than a
transit
>> provider, unlike what a lot of IRC networks are classed under. So as
far as
>> Discord goes, very strong -1 in my opinion.
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 7:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello everyone,
>> >
>> > Short version:
>> > I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar
to IRC)
>> and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
>> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>> >
https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
>> >
3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
>> >
&auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
>> > badf539d389685869
>> >
>> > Please join and use these new services. They are only partially
set up
>> and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach
out to
>> this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also,
both
>> services have dedicated feedback channels.
>> >
>> > Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although
try
>> not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between
the
>> lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the
discussion
>> with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case
Discourse
>> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it
isn't lost.
>> >
>> > Longer version & more details:
>> > During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
>> > expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a
>> > non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out
>> > about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and
mailing
>> > lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and
often
>> > intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and
resistant
>> > to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was
>> > compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if
it
>> > means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>> >
>> > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there
and
>> the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
>> longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial
Discord
>> and Discourse server. You can find them here:
>> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>> >
https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
>> >
3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
>> >
&auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
>> > badf539d389685869
>> >
>> > There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be
great for
>> folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in
>> Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on
both
>> Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific
set of
>> improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike
and we
>> can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>> >
>> > Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>> > Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one
place,
>> etc.
>> >
>> > See the plan here:
>> >
https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
>> >
3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group%2ft%2fmirroring%2dand%2darchiving%2dllvm%
>> >
2dmailing%2dlists%2don%2ddiscourse%2f61&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3
>> >
368bc108e8e&auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-ecf495cfb4c1
>> > 9b33b2115bb647dbc85b26fc4ca0
>> >
>> > Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
>> > Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
>> similarly email-focused workflow.
>> >
>> >
>> > We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to
seriously try
>> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of
the
>> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also
have
>> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow
of
>> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has
very
>> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should
seriously
>> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>> >
>> > I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop
for
>> giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these
>> kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to
>> people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It
takes a
>> lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also
>> helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks
to
>> Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this
>> message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things
set
>> up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially
around
>> Discord bots.
>> >
>> > -Chandler
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > LLVM Developers mailing list
>> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>> _______________________________________________
>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>> Als GmbH eingetragen im Handelsregister Bad Homburg v.d.H. HRB 9816,
>> USt.ID-Nr. DE 114 165 789 Geschäftsführer: Dr. Hiroshi Nakamura, Dr.
Robert
>> Plank, Markus Bode, Heiko Lampert, Takashi Nagano, Takeshi Fukushima.
>> Junichi Tajika
>> _______________________________________________
>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
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Chandler:

Why not a stackoverflow tag for CLang developer n00bies? Why a revolution
when a minor insurrection would suffice?


-scooter

On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 11:48 PM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
>
> *Short version:*I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat
> (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email
> lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and
> still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to
this
> thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both
> services have dedicated feedback channels.
>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not
> to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists
> and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion
with
> are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse
> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it
isn't lost.
>
>
> *Longer version & more details:*During this year's Women in
Compilers and
> Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems
> cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out
> about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing
> lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often
> intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to
> change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and
> important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let
> go of my precious IRC. ;]
>
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the
> most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form
> discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse
> server. You can find them here:
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for
folks
> to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse,
> and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse
and
> Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements
to
> these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you
set
> up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>
>    - Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>    - Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one
>    place, etc.
>       - See the plan here:
>      
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>    - Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
>    - Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
>    similarly email-focused workflow.
>
>
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously
try
> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have
> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of
> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very
> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously
> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving
> me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of
> things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less
> established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak
> up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to
> address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for
> organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home
> to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I
wouldn't
> have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.
>
> -Chandler
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
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+1 for StackOverflow... Personally, I would LOVE to be able to find LLVM-related
Q&A on that platform.


-- Alexis Perry-Holby

________________________________
From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org> on behalf of Scott
Michel via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 10:42 AM
To: llvm-dev
Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's
discussions

Chandler:

Why not a stackoverflow tag for CLang developer n00bies? Why a revolution when a
minor insurrection would suffice?


-scooter

On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 11:48 PM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
Hello everyone,

Short version:
I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and
an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
https://llvm.discourse.group/

Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still
very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread
with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have
dedicated feedback channels.

Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to
create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and
Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are
fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't
work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.

Longer version & more details:
During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks expressed
very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount of
friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM.
Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are
unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long
been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at
WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it
means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]

We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the most
promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form
discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse
server. You can find them here:
https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
https://llvm.discourse.group/

There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks to
clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse, and
I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and
Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to
these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up.
Some specific things we're already working on:

  *   Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
  *   Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place,
etc.
     *   See the plan here:
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
  *   Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org<http://forums.llvm.org>.
  *   Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly
email-focused workflow.

We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try
using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger
barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had serious
infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for
several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based
workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse
long-term instead of the email lists.

I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving me
and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things,
but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in
the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I
really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these
long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT
workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch
of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it
without her help, especially around Discord bots.

-Chandler
_______________________________________________
LLVM Developers mailing list
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
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I personally do not use IRC, and am unlikely to ever use any equivalent
replacement in the future, so I don't really care where it goes. I
personally don't find the mailing lists hard to use, but I can see some
advantages in a forum. If nothing else, the mailing list archives feel
clunky to use. I haven't looked at Discourse yet, but I do want to make a
few requests, based on my email client and past experience with web forums,
that I think should be present in any such software. Alternatively, if it
is trivial to make the forums effectively work the same as the mailing list
as has been suggested, that would work for me, as long as it was simple to
do. Anyway, my personal requirements:

1) Auto-saving of drafts: due to the vagaries of the internet, websites
etc, I've had experiences in the past of writing big long forum posts only
for something to go wrong during writing/editing/posting etc, causing the
whole post to be lost. With gmail, which is my email client for this email
address, the message gets auto-saved regularly, so any loss is relatively
simple.
2) Easy formatting of quotes and code samples. These are the two pieces of
text formatting I'm most likely to need. If a forum doesn't have a
straightforward way of writing monospace code, it's basically useless for a
programming community.
3) High-quality searchability within the forum. I think this speaks for
itself. I don't want to have to search the entire internet for my topic,
just the forum etc.

James

On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 at 07:49, Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
>
> *Short version:*I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat
> (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email
> lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and
> still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to
this
> thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both
> services have dedicated feedback channels.
>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not
> to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists
> and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion
with
> are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse
> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it
isn't lost.
>
>
> *Longer version & more details:*During this year's Women in
Compilers and
> Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems
> cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out
> about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing
> lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often
> intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to
> change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and
> important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let
> go of my precious IRC. ;]
>
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the
> most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form
> discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse
> server. You can find them here:
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for
folks
> to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse,
> and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse
and
> Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements
to
> these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you
set
> up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>
>    - Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>    - Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one
>    place, etc.
>       - See the plan here:
>      
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>    - Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
>    - Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
>    similarly email-focused workflow.
>
>
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously
try
> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have
> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of
> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very
> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously
> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving
> me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of
> things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less
> established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak
> up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to
> address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for
> organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home
> to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I
wouldn't
> have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.
>
> -Chandler
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
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Just a FYI, Mozilla community finally chose Matrix as replacement for
IRC:
https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/synchronous-messaging-at-mozilla-the-decision/50620

Regards,
Chaofan

Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> 于2019年11月18日周一
下午3:48写道：
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> Short version:
> I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC)
and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and
still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this
thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services
have dedicated feedback channels.
>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not
to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and
Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are
fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't
work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
>
> Longer version & more details:
> During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount
of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to
LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are
unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long
been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at
WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it
means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the
most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form
discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse
server. You can find them here:
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://llvm.discourse.group/
>
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for
folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse,
and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and
Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to
these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up.
Some specific things we're already working on:
>
> Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
> Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place, etc.
>
> See the plan here:
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>
> Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
> Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly
email-focused workflow.
>
>
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously
try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had
serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam,
bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful
email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving
to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving
me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things,
but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in
the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I
really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these
long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT
workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch
of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it
without her help, especially around Discord bots.
>
> -Chandler
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev