Hi there, sorry to bring this topic up yet again, but I feel that some time has passed, and that the landscape has changed. Currently, Prototype is the default option in Rails. While switching to jQuery is pretty easy, it''s not as easy as not having to switch at all, and this being Rails and all, our expectations in the area of rock-solid defaults are high. I''d like to bring up some arguments in favor of switching the default to jQuery. 1. It is my feeling that the vast majority of the Rails community use jQuery exclusively. 2. jQuery has a vast community of its own, and a multitude of plugins. 2. Yehuda Katz. In all honesty, it''s probably the first argument that carries the most weight: if the vast majority of developers use jQuery, Rails should embrace it as the new default, seeing as it''s the *preferred* one now. Now, I may be wrong about the number of jQuery vs. Prototype users, but I''d be surprised if I was. I hope I''ll get at least a few responses. I can entirely understand if you''ve got personal reasons to prefer Prototype and all, its long history side by side with Rails and all, but Rails 3.1 may be a good time reflect on whether it''s still the best choice. Best regards, Daniel Schierbeck -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
On May 24, 10:54 am, Daniel Schierbeck <daniel.schierb...@gmail.com> wrote:> Hi there, sorry to bring this topic up yet again, but I feel that some > time has passed, and that the landscape has changed. > > Currently, Prototype is the default option in Rails. While switching > to jQuery is pretty easy, it''s not as easy as not having to switch at > all, and this being Rails and all, our expectations in the area of > rock-solid defaults are high. I''d like to bring up some arguments in > favor of switching the default to jQuery. > > 1. It is my feeling that the vast majority of the Rails community use > jQuery exclusively.Mine too.> 2. jQuery has a vast community of its own, and a multitude of > plugins. > 2. Yehuda Katz. >I agree, and think that Rails 3 is a good opportunity to offer new default values for a lot of things, including the default javascript library. Jeff -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
Em 24-05-2010 16:00, Jeff escreveu:> On May 24, 10:54 am, Daniel Schierbeck<daniel.schierb...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Hi there, sorry to bring this topic up yet again, but I feel that some >> time has passed, and that the landscape has changed. >> >> Currently, Prototype is the default option in Rails. While switching >> to jQuery is pretty easy, it''s not as easy as not having to switch at >> all, and this being Rails and all, our expectations in the area of >> rock-solid defaults are high. I''d like to bring up some arguments in >> favor of switching the default to jQuery. >> >> 1. It is my feeling that the vast majority of the Rails community use >> jQuery exclusively. >> > Mine too. > > >> 2. jQuery has a vast community of its own, and a multitude of >> plugins. >> 2. Yehuda Katz. >> >> > I agree, and think that Rails 3 is a good opportunity to offer new > default values for a lot of things, including the default javascript > library. > > Jeff >It probably makes any difference, but +1 anyway... Rodrigo -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
Death to prototype! Long live jQuery! Ryan Bigg / Radar On 25/05/2010, at 6:17, Rodrigo Rosenfeld Rosas <rr.rosas@gmail.com> wrote:> Em 24-05-2010 16:00, Jeff escreveu: >> On May 24, 10:54 am, Daniel Schierbeck<daniel.schierb...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi there, sorry to bring this topic up yet again, but I feel that >>> some >>> time has passed, and that the landscape has changed. >>> >>> Currently, Prototype is the default option in Rails. While switching >>> to jQuery is pretty easy, it''s not as easy as not having to switch >>> at >>> all, and this being Rails and all, our expectations in the area of >>> rock-solid defaults are high. I''d like to bring up some arguments in >>> favor of switching the default to jQuery. >>> >>> 1. It is my feeling that the vast majority of the Rails community >>> use >>> jQuery exclusively. >>> >> Mine too. >> >> >>> 2. jQuery has a vast community of its own, and a multitude of >>> plugins. >>> 2. Yehuda Katz. >>> >>> >> I agree, and think that Rails 3 is a good opportunity to offer new >> default values for a lot of things, including the default javascript >> library. >> >> Jeff >> > > It probably makes any difference, but +1 anyway... > > Rodrigo > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails- > core@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en > . >-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
+1 jQuery On May 25, 2010, at 2:57 AM, Ryan Bigg wrote:> Death to prototype! Long live jQuery! > > Ryan Bigg / Radar > > On 25/05/2010, at 6:17, Rodrigo Rosenfeld Rosas <rr.rosas@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Em 24-05-2010 16:00, Jeff escreveu: >>> On May 24, 10:54 am, Daniel Schierbeck<daniel.schierb...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi there, sorry to bring this topic up yet again, but I feel that some >>>> time has passed, and that the landscape has changed. >>>> >>>> Currently, Prototype is the default option in Rails. While switching >>>> to jQuery is pretty easy, it''s not as easy as not having to switch at >>>> all, and this being Rails and all, our expectations in the area of >>>> rock-solid defaults are high. I''d like to bring up some arguments in >>>> favor of switching the default to jQuery. >>>> >>>> 1. It is my feeling that the vast majority of the Rails community use >>>> jQuery exclusively. >>>> >>> Mine too. >>> >>> >>>> 2. jQuery has a vast community of its own, and a multitude of >>>> plugins. >>>> 2. Yehuda Katz. >>>> >>>> >>> I agree, and think that Rails 3 is a good opportunity to offer new >>> default values for a lot of things, including the default javascript >>> library. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >> >> It probably makes any difference, but +1 anyway... >> >> Rodrigo >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. >> To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. >-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
I suppose once 3.0 is released and it''s just as easy to use jQuery with Rails as Prototype, it should be easy to determine which one people are using more often and then make that the default for 3.1. I''m also pretty convinced jQuery will come out far ahead. On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 18:27, Ryan Bigg <radarlistener@gmail.com> wrote:> Death to prototype! Long live jQuery! > > Ryan Bigg / Radar > > On 25/05/2010, at 6:17, Rodrigo Rosenfeld Rosas <rr.rosas@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Em 24-05-2010 16:00, Jeff escreveu: >>> >>> On May 24, 10:54 am, Daniel Schierbeck<daniel.schierb...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi there, sorry to bring this topic up yet again, but I feel that some >>>> time has passed, and that the landscape has changed. >>>> >>>> Currently, Prototype is the default option in Rails. While switching >>>> to jQuery is pretty easy, it''s not as easy as not having to switch at >>>> all, and this being Rails and all, our expectations in the area of >>>> rock-solid defaults are high. I''d like to bring up some arguments in >>>> favor of switching the default to jQuery. >>>> >>>> 1. It is my feeling that the vast majority of the Rails community use >>>> jQuery exclusively. >>>> >>> Mine too. >>> >>> >>>> 2. jQuery has a vast community of its own, and a multitude of >>>> plugins. >>>> 2. Yehuda Katz. >>>> >>>> >>> I agree, and think that Rails 3 is a good opportunity to offer new >>> default values for a lot of things, including the default javascript >>> library. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >> >> It probably makes any difference, but +1 anyway... >> >> Rodrigo >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. >> To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. > >-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
Just to be clear, I don''t think there''s any doubt that jQuery has far more users, both in the Rails space and in the general space. So I don''t think that determining that jQuery is used more by Rails 3 users will result in changing the defaults. I''d like to hear from other Rails core team members about this topic. Yehuda Katz Architect | Engine Yard (ph) 718.877.1325 On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Norman Clarke <norman@njclarke.com> wrote:> I suppose once 3.0 is released and it''s just as easy to use jQuery > with Rails as Prototype, it should be easy to determine which one > people are using more often and then make that the default for 3.1. > I''m also pretty convinced jQuery will come out far ahead. > > On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 18:27, Ryan Bigg <radarlistener@gmail.com> wrote: > > Death to prototype! Long live jQuery! > > > > Ryan Bigg / Radar > > > > On 25/05/2010, at 6:17, Rodrigo Rosenfeld Rosas <rr.rosas@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > >> Em 24-05-2010 16:00, Jeff escreveu: > >>> > >>> On May 24, 10:54 am, Daniel Schierbeck<daniel.schierb...@gmail.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi there, sorry to bring this topic up yet again, but I feel that some > >>>> time has passed, and that the landscape has changed. > >>>> > >>>> Currently, Prototype is the default option in Rails. While switching > >>>> to jQuery is pretty easy, it''s not as easy as not having to switch at > >>>> all, and this being Rails and all, our expectations in the area of > >>>> rock-solid defaults are high. I''d like to bring up some arguments in > >>>> favor of switching the default to jQuery. > >>>> > >>>> 1. It is my feeling that the vast majority of the Rails community use > >>>> jQuery exclusively. > >>>> > >>> Mine too. > >>> > >>> > >>>> 2. jQuery has a vast community of its own, and a multitude of > >>>> plugins. > >>>> 2. Yehuda Katz. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> I agree, and think that Rails 3 is a good opportunity to offer new > >>> default values for a lot of things, including the default javascript > >>> library. > >>> > >>> Jeff > >>> > >> > >> It probably makes any difference, but +1 anyway... > >> > >> Rodrigo > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<rubyonrails-core%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com> > . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. > >> > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<rubyonrails-core%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com> > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<rubyonrails-core%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. > >-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
I don''t particularly care which is the default, but I think it should be easy to pick either. Maybe a flag on the rails command like -d for the database. You could do something like: rails myapp -j=jquery Allen Madsen http://www.allenmadsen.com On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 6:10 PM, Yehuda Katz <wycats@gmail.com> wrote:> Just to be clear, I don''t think there''s any doubt that jQuery has far more > users, both in the Rails space and in the general space. So I don''t think > that determining that jQuery is used more by Rails 3 users will result in > changing the defaults. > I''d like to hear from other Rails core team members about this topic. > Yehuda Katz > Architect | Engine Yard > (ph) 718.877.1325 > > > On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Norman Clarke <norman@njclarke.com> wrote: >> >> I suppose once 3.0 is released and it''s just as easy to use jQuery >> with Rails as Prototype, it should be easy to determine which one >> people are using more often and then make that the default for 3.1. >> I''m also pretty convinced jQuery will come out far ahead. >> >> On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 18:27, Ryan Bigg <radarlistener@gmail.com> wrote: >> > Death to prototype! Long live jQuery! >> > >> > Ryan Bigg / Radar >> > >> > On 25/05/2010, at 6:17, Rodrigo Rosenfeld Rosas <rr.rosas@gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Em 24-05-2010 16:00, Jeff escreveu: >> >>> >> >>> On May 24, 10:54 am, Daniel Schierbeck<daniel.schierb...@gmail.com> >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Hi there, sorry to bring this topic up yet again, but I feel that >> >>>> some >> >>>> time has passed, and that the landscape has changed. >> >>>> >> >>>> Currently, Prototype is the default option in Rails. While switching >> >>>> to jQuery is pretty easy, it''s not as easy as not having to switch at >> >>>> all, and this being Rails and all, our expectations in the area of >> >>>> rock-solid defaults are high. I''d like to bring up some arguments in >> >>>> favor of switching the default to jQuery. >> >>>> >> >>>> 1. It is my feeling that the vast majority of the Rails community >> >>>> use >> >>>> jQuery exclusively. >> >>>> >> >>> Mine too. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> 2. jQuery has a vast community of its own, and a multitude of >> >>>> plugins. >> >>>> 2. Yehuda Katz. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> I agree, and think that Rails 3 is a good opportunity to offer new >> >>> default values for a lot of things, including the default javascript >> >>> library. >> >>> >> >>> Jeff >> >>> >> >> >> >> It probably makes any difference, but +1 anyway... >> >> >> >> Rodrigo >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> Groups >> >> "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. >> >> To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> >> For more options, visit this group at >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. >> >> >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups >> > "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> > http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. >> > >> > >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. >> To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. >-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
On 25-May-10, at 10:54 AM, Allen Madsen wrote:> I don''t particularly care which is the default, but I think it should > be easy to pick either. Maybe a flag on the rails command like -d for > the database. You could do something like: > > rails myapp -j=jquery > > Allen Madsen > http://www.allenmadsen.com+1 I think ideally, there should be -o and -t options for picking your orm and test framework at creation time as well -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
-/+1 yes - it should be easy to select, but one has to differentiate between first time users and heavy users. first time users might not be able to choose between various types of orm, jslib, testlib ... and so they will choose the default. i think well thought defaults are important as they will lay the foundation of first projects and will bind first time users to at least a few months to the libs. Am 25.05.2010 um 17:12 schrieb Mateo Murphy:> > On 25-May-10, at 10:54 AM, Allen Madsen wrote: > >> I don''t particularly care which is the default, but I think it should >> be easy to pick either. Maybe a flag on the rails command like -d for >> the database. You could do something like: >> >> rails myapp -j=jquery >> >> Allen Madsen >> http://www.allenmadsen.com > > +1 > > I think ideally, there should be -o and -t options for picking your orm and test framework at creation time as well > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. > > > > >Gruß Paul !DSPAM:4bfbf17159888338217025! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
I think that picking a single default that works for the majority, while retaining the possibility of opting out is the way to go. Having a command line switch that toggles different implementations may be nice, but it also incurs a much bigger maintenance work, as the sheer number of combinations between different components becomes vast. Unless this is something someone wants to maintain, I suggest removing the non-default bindings from the Rails repo and putting it in a plugin. Cheers, Daniel Schierbeck On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 5:28 PM, Paul Sponagl <paul@sponagl.de> wrote:> -/+1 > > yes - it should be easy to select, but one has to differentiate between first time users and heavy users. > > first time users might not be able to choose between various types of orm, jslib, testlib ... and so they will choose the default. > > i think well thought defaults are important as they will lay the foundation of first projects and will bind first time users to at least a few months to the libs. > > > Am 25.05.2010 um 17:12 schrieb Mateo Murphy: > >> >> On 25-May-10, at 10:54 AM, Allen Madsen wrote: >> >>> I don''t particularly care which is the default, but I think it should >>> be easy to pick either. Maybe a flag on the rails command like -d for >>> the database. You could do something like: >>> >>> rails myapp -j=jquery >>> >>> Allen Madsen >>> http://www.allenmadsen.com >> >> +1 >> >> I think ideally, there should be -o and -t options for picking your orm and test framework at creation time as well >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. >> To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. >> >> >> >> >> > > Gruß > > Paul > > > > > !DSPAM:4bfbf17159888338217025! > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. > >-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
+1 for jQuery. It''s tough to get people to switch, so I think you should have a choice. Ship with both perhaps. But I think the syntax and philosophy of jQuery is more similar to Ruby than Protoype is similar to Ruby. I think it would be easier for new people to pick up jQuery than Prototype, but both are very easy to get started with. Karl On May 24, 8:54 am, Daniel Schierbeck <daniel.schierb...@gmail.com> wrote:> Hi there, sorry to bring this topic up yet again, but I feel that some > time has passed, and that the landscape has changed. > > Currently, Prototype is the default option in Rails. While switching > to jQuery is pretty easy, it''s not as easy as not having to switch at > all, and this being Rails and all, our expectations in the area of > rock-solid defaults are high. I''d like to bring up some arguments in > favor of switching the default to jQuery. > > 1. It is my feeling that the vast majority of the Rails community use > jQuery exclusively. > 2. jQuery has a vast community of its own, and a multitude of > plugins. > 2. Yehuda Katz. > > In all honesty, it''s probably the first argument that carries the most > weight: if the vast majority of developers use jQuery, Rails should > embrace it as the new default, seeing as it''s the *preferred* one now. > Now, I may be wrong about the number of jQuery vs. Prototype users, > but I''d be surprised if I was. > > I hope I''ll get at least a few responses. I can entirely understand if > you''ve got personal reasons to prefer Prototype and all, its long > history side by side with Rails and all, but Rails 3.1 may be a good > time reflect on whether it''s still the best choice. > > Best regards, > Daniel Schierbeck > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
Prototype looks more like Ruby, but I like jQuery better. On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Karl <kjvarga@gmail.com> wrote:> +1 for jQuery. > > It''s tough to get people to switch, so I think you should have a > choice. Ship with both perhaps. > > But I think the syntax and philosophy of jQuery is more similar to > Ruby than Protoype is similar to Ruby. I think it would be easier for > new people to pick up jQuery than Prototype, but both are very easy to > get started with. > > Karl > > On May 24, 8:54 am, Daniel Schierbeck <daniel.schierb...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > Hi there, sorry to bring this topic up yet again, but I feel that some > > time has passed, and that the landscape has changed. > > > > Currently, Prototype is the default option in Rails. While switching > > to jQuery is pretty easy, it''s not as easy as not having to switch at > > all, and this being Rails and all, our expectations in the area of > > rock-solid defaults are high. I''d like to bring up some arguments in > > favor of switching the default to jQuery. > > > > 1. It is my feeling that the vast majority of the Rails community use > > jQuery exclusively. > > 2. jQuery has a vast community of its own, and a multitude of > > plugins. > > 2. Yehuda Katz. > > > > In all honesty, it''s probably the first argument that carries the most > > weight: if the vast majority of developers use jQuery, Rails should > > embrace it as the new default, seeing as it''s the *preferred* one now. > > Now, I may be wrong about the number of jQuery vs. Prototype users, > > but I''d be surprised if I was. > > > > I hope I''ll get at least a few responses. I can entirely understand if > > you''ve got personal reasons to prefer Prototype and all, its long > > history side by side with Rails and all, but Rails 3.1 may be a good > > time reflect on whether it''s still the best choice. > > > > Best regards, > > Daniel Schierbeck > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<rubyonrails-core%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com> > . > > For more options, visit this group athttp:// > groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<rubyonrails-core%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. > >-- Amos King http://dirtyInformation.com http://github.com/Adkron -- Looking for something to do? Visit http://ImThere.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
It is a very good idea! I''m a beginner, and still have some problems with setting up Rails with a workable database... so it won''t be fun, if a beginner has to pay attention also for choosing the better JS library - while maybe he doesn''t have any idea about Js at all! Anyway: jQuery is much better, and also very good for beinners; for example I made half that much basic mistakes than with Prottype! ;) Of course I''m not the only beginner - so it is just an opinion. üdv, Zoli On May 25, 5:28 pm, Paul Sponagl <p...@sponagl.de> wrote:> -/+1 > > yes - it should be easy to select, but one has to differentiate between first time users and heavy users. > > first time users might not be able to choose between various types of orm, jslib, testlib ... and so they will choose the default. > > i think well thought defaults are important as they will lay the foundation of first projects and will bind first time users to at least a few months to the libs. > > Am 25.05.2010 um 17:12 schrieb Mateo Murphy: > > > > > > > On 25-May-10, at 10:54 AM, Allen Madsen wrote: > > >> I don''t particularly care which is the default, but I think it should > >> be easy to pick either. Maybe a flag on the rails command like -d for > >> the database. You could do something like: > > >> rails myapp -j=jquery > > >> Allen Madsen > >>http://www.allenmadsen.com > > > +1 > > > I think ideally, there should be -o and -t options for picking your orm and test framework at creation time as well > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. > > Gruß > > Paul > > !DSPAM:4bfbf17159888338217025! > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Daniel Schierbeck <daniel.schierbeck@gmail.com> wrote:> 1. It is my feeling that the vast majority of the Rails community use > jQuery exclusively.This report from RailsLab says jRails is used by about 16% of RPM users: http://railslab.newrelic.com/2010/05/25/state-of-the-stack-a-ruby-on-rails-benchmarking-report-25-may-2010?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+RailsLab+(RailsLab)&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher It could be the case that some switch to jQuery without jRails, but I wouldn''t expect that to be a significant percent. In any case, a 16% in that particular sample does not seem to support that perception. -- fxn PS: I you match gems and plugins, numbers say Mislav is the king :). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
Projects using jQuery dont necessarily use jRails so I dont think that
16% is a real indicator of the usage of jQuery in Rails projects.
At least to me it seems like the problem of having Prototype as
default affects mostly to new people. Advanced users will just install
jRails and use jQuery. New people might find themselves thinking they
nave to use Prototype to work with Rails, or other harmful situations.
I believe that if the default lib is the most used everywhere these
negative situations will happen less often.
Hope it helps.
--
{ :sent_from => "iPhone" }
On 27/05/2010, at 16:23, Xavier Noria <fxn@hashref.com> wrote:
> On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Daniel Schierbeck
> <daniel.schierbeck@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 1. It is my feeling that the vast majority of the Rails community
>> use
>> jQuery exclusively.
>
> This report from RailsLab says jRails is used by about 16% of RPM
> users:
>
>
http://railslab.newrelic.com/2010/05/25/state-of-the-stack-a-ruby-on-rails-benchmarking-report-25-may-2010?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+RailsLab+(RailsLab)&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher
>
> It could be the case that some switch to jQuery without jRails, but I
> wouldn''t expect that to be a significant percent. In any case, a
16%
> in that particular sample does not seem to support that perception.
>
> -- fxn
>
> PS: I you match gems and plugins, numbers say Mislav is the king :).
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group.
> To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-
> core@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> .
> For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en
> .
>
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At every talk I give at a conference, I ask whether people use jQuery in their Rails apps. In every case, close to 100% of the room raises their hands. jRails is a replacement for the Rails helpers only; I personally know a huge number of people who use jQuery with jRails. In short jRails usage != jQuery usage On Thursday, May 27, 2010, Xavier Noria <fxn@hashref.com> wrote:> On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Daniel Schierbeck > <daniel.schierbeck@gmail.com> wrote: > >> 1. It is my feeling that the vast majority of the Rails community use >> jQuery exclusively. > > This report from RailsLab says jRails is used by about 16% of RPM users: > > http://railslab.newrelic.com/2010/05/25/state-of-the-stack-a-ruby-on-rails-benchmarking-report-25-may-2010?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+RailsLab+(RailsLab)&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher > > It could be the case that some switch to jQuery without jRails, but I > wouldn''t expect that to be a significant percent. In any case, a 16% > in that particular sample does not seem to support that perception. > > -- fxn > > PS: I you match gems and plugins, numbers say Mislav is the king :). > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. > >-- Yehuda Katz Architect | Engine Yard (ph) 718.877.1325 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Albert Llop <mrsimo@gmail.com> wrote:> Projects using jQuery dont necessarily use jRails so I dont think that 16% > is a real indicator of the usage of jQuery in Rails projects.As I said, I don''t expect that to be a significant percent.> At least to me it seems like the problem of having Prototype as default > affects mostly to new people. Advanced users will just install jRails and > use jQuery. New people might find themselves thinking they nave to use > Prototype to work with Rails, or other harmful situations. I believe that if > the default lib is the most used everywhere these negative situations will > happen less often.That''s a different story. What the 16% tells in my view is that you can''t include (1) among the reasons for advocating a switch in the default. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
On 27.5.2010, at 18.11, Yehuda Katz wrote:> At every talk I give at a conference, I ask whether people use jQuery > in their Rails apps. In every case, close to 100% of the room raises > their hands.In all fairness, I think that''s a bit misleading question. I raised my hand when you asked it in Frozen Rails, but I would also have raised my hand if you''d had asked the same question about Prototype. //jarkko -- Jarkko Laine http://jlaine.net http://dotherightthing.com http://odesign.fi Check out my latest book, Unobtrusive Prototype, fresh off the Peepcode oven: http://peepcode.com/products/unobtrusive-prototype-js -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
The idea that 16% of Rails users use jQuery is divorced from reality. I can devise some experiments to prove that, but I have seen no evidence in my travels of a huge amount of people using anything else. I freely agree that people use Protoype, MooTools and Dojo. The number of people who do so, in my estimation, is quite small. Also, to be clear, people who don''t write JavaScript at all but just use the Rails helpers would be unaffected by a change in defaults. I would consider them N/As rather than "prototype users" On Thursday, May 27, 2010, Jarkko Laine <jarkko@jlaine.net> wrote:> On 27.5.2010, at 18.11, Yehuda Katz wrote: > >> At every talk I give at a conference, I ask whether people use jQuery >> in their Rails apps. In every case, close to 100% of the room raises >> their hands. > > In all fairness, I think that''s a bit misleading question. I raised my hand when you asked it in Frozen Rails, but I would also have raised my hand if you''d had asked the same question about Prototype. > > //jarkko > > -- > Jarkko Laine > http://jlaine.net > http://dotherightthing.com > http://odesign.fi > > Check out my latest book, Unobtrusive Prototype, fresh off the Peepcode oven: > http://peepcode.com/products/unobtrusive-prototype-js > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. > >-- Yehuda Katz Architect | Engine Yard (ph) 718.877.1325 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
This is that api I propose. If it is agreed upon by core team then a patch can easily be created. # create a demo app with prototype javascript # in this way current behavior is not changed> rails init demo# create a demo app with latest stable jquery # http://github.com/rails/jquery-ujs should have a jquery-versions.txt file which lists all the stable releases of jquery. That file will be referred # on runtime and the latest stable version will be found which would be 1.4.2 as of this writing> rails init demo -j=jquery# create a demo app with jquery version 1.4.1> rails init demo -j=jquery:1.4.1# create a demo app with mootools version 1.2.4> rails init demo -j=mootools:1.2.4Once this kind of api is in place then I don''t care what is the default JavaScript library that ships with rails. Thoughts? On May 27, 11:32 am, Yehuda Katz <wyc...@gmail.com> wrote:> The idea that 16% of Rails users use jQuery is divorced from reality. > I can devise some experiments to prove that, but I have seen no > evidence in my travels of a huge amount of people using anything else. > I freely agree that people use Protoype, MooTools and Dojo. The number > of people who do so, in my estimation, is quite small. > > Also, to be clear, people who don''t write JavaScript at all but just > use the Rails helpers would be unaffected by a change in defaults. I > would consider them N/As rather than "prototype users" > > > > > > On Thursday, May 27, 2010, Jarkko Laine <jar...@jlaine.net> wrote: > > On 27.5.2010, at 18.11, Yehuda Katz wrote: > > >> At every talk I give at a conference, I ask whether people use jQuery > >> in their Rails apps. In every case, close to 100% of the room raises > >> their hands. > > > In all fairness, I think that''s a bit misleading question. I raised my hand when you asked it in Frozen Rails, but I would also have raised my hand if you''d had asked the same question about Prototype. > > > //jarkko > > > -- > > Jarkko Laine > >http://jlaine.net > >http://dotherightthing.com > >http://odesign.fi > > > Check out my latest book, Unobtrusive Prototype, fresh off the Peepcode oven: > >http://peepcode.com/products/unobtrusive-prototype-js > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. > > -- > Yehuda Katz > Architect | Engine Yard > (ph) 718.877.1325-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Yehuda Katz <wycats@gmail.com> wrote:> The idea that 16% of Rails users use jQuery is divorced from reality.But you are talking perceptions, and the sample talks numbers. Of course 16% has to be taken with some margins, but you can''t deny it makes difficult to claim that the vast majority of Rails developers use jQuery exclusively, which was the claim in (1). That is a strong claim! (1 was originally stated as a feeling not a fact, that''s fine). If the percent had been 84% then there would be no doubt about it, right? But < 20%... dubious. But it turns out the 84% seems to support that the vast majority are using Prototype, no matter which is our termometer. Hey, I am not saying people can''t advocate jQuery because of a series of reasons. I am only raising a flag about this claim about the perceived user base. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
On 27-May-10, at 11:32 AM, Yehuda Katz wrote:> The idea that 16% of Rails users use jQuery is divorced from reality. > I can devise some experiments to prove that, but I have seen no > evidence in my travels of a huge amount of people using anything else. > I freely agree that people use Protoype, MooTools and Dojo. The number > of people who do so, in my estimation, is quite small.I think in reality, most rails developers end up using both; prototype because it''s the default, and jquery because of the large library of plugins. I do think that supports a move to using jquery as default, despite preferring prototype myself. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
> Of course 16% has to be taken with some margins, but you can''t deny it > makes difficult to claim that the vast majority of Rails developers > use jQuery exclusively, which was the claim in (1). That is a strong > claim! (1 was originally stated as a feeling not a fact, that''s fine). > > If the percent had been 84% then there would be no doubt about it, > right? But < 20%... dubious. > > But it turns out the 84% seems to support that the vast majority are > using Prototype, no matter which is our termometer.I completely disagree, just because people don''t use jrails, doesn''t mean they''re a prototype user. I generally bring in jQuery manually and delete all the prototype cruft from my projects, but I then write my own jQuery code to do specifically what I want, ignoring Rails helpers. You can''t assume that 16% jRails = 16% jQuery - it would be true if that was the only way of using jQuery with Rails, but it so blatantly isn''t. Cheers, Andy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 12:45, Xavier Noria <fxn@hashref.com> wrote:> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Yehuda Katz <wycats@gmail.com> wrote: > >> The idea that 16% of Rails users use jQuery is divorced from reality. > > But you are talking perceptions, and the sample talks numbers. > > Of course 16% has to be taken with some margins, but you can''t deny it > makes difficult to claim that the vast majority of Rails developers > use jQuery exclusively, which was the claim in (1). That is a strong > claim! (1 was originally stated as a feeling not a fact, that''s fine). > > If the percent had been 84% then there would be no doubt about it, > right? But < 20%... dubious.This is why I stated that once Rails 3 comes out, it should be easier to get some "real" numbers on this, since presumably it will be just as easy for developers to use jQuery as it currently is to use Prototype, and those users who actively program in Javascript rather than just using the helpers will consciously decide to use one or the other. I would suggest it''s a bit late to change the default option at this time, and if the decision is left for 3.1 it can easily be based at least in part on real-world numbers that nobody disputes. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
Taking a sampling of libraries from the home pages of the six example sites listed on http://rubyonrails.org/ (Who is already on Rails?) jQuery: Twitter, Shopify, Yellow Pages, Github Prototype: Basecamp, Lighthouseapp I only looked at the source of the home pages, and may have missed a jQuery also using Prototype and vice versa. - Adam -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 5:55 PM, Andy Jeffries <andy@andyjeffries.co.uk> wrote:> I completely disagree, just because people don''t use jrails, doesn''t > mean they''re a prototype user. I generally bring in jQuery manually > and delete all the prototype cruft from my projects, but I then write > my own jQuery code to do specifically what I want, ignoring Rails > helpers.I know! The problem is to gauge which percent does that represent. Do you claim that there''s a 50% of people using jQuery exclusively without jRails to be able to sum up say 70%? My hypothesis is that that percent is small, and this is of course speculation. But speculation based on the fact that generally speaking one prefers to keep the helpers if the cost is as cheap as installing jRails. I am not claiming 16% is the exact figure, this is a sample, there''s that other variable. What I say is that the numbers do not seem to **support**, to bring some evidence in favor of (1), on the contrary. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
Xavier, I for one never use jRails -- in fact, neither do most of the rails devs i know. We do, however, use jQuery. The JavaScript helpers in Rails 2.3 were rather ugly, from a jQuery point of view, which probably explains why not that many people felt like using jRails. Daniel On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 6:10 PM, Xavier Noria <fxn@hashref.com> wrote:> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 5:55 PM, Andy Jeffries <andy@andyjeffries.co.uk> wrote: > >> I completely disagree, just because people don''t use jrails, doesn''t >> mean they''re a prototype user. I generally bring in jQuery manually >> and delete all the prototype cruft from my projects, but I then write >> my own jQuery code to do specifically what I want, ignoring Rails >> helpers. > > I know! > > The problem is to gauge which percent does that represent. Do you > claim that there''s a 50% of people using jQuery exclusively without > jRails to be able to sum up say 70%? > > My hypothesis is that that percent is small, and this is of course > speculation. But speculation based on the fact that generally speaking > one prefers to keep the helpers if the cost is as cheap as installing > jRails. > > I am not claiming 16% is the exact figure, this is a sample, there''s > that other variable. What I say is that the numbers do not seem to > **support**, to bring some evidence in favor of (1), on the contrary. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. > >-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
On May 27, 2010, at 12:51 PM, Daniel Schierbeck wrote:> Xavier, I for one never use jRails -- in fact, neither do most of the > rails devs i know. We do, however, use jQuery. > > The JavaScript helpers in Rails 2.3 were rather ugly, from a jQuery point > of view, which probably explains why not that many people felt like using > jRails. > > > DanielSeconded. We use jQuery for almost all of our projects around here, but don''t bother with jRails because of the ugly factor. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
I would not go changing this in a minor release. Major or bust. Ryan Bigg / Radar On 28/05/2010, at 1:58, Norman Clarke <norman@njclarke.com> wrote:> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 12:45, Xavier Noria <fxn@hashref.com> wrote: >> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Yehuda Katz <wycats@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> The idea that 16% of Rails users use jQuery is divorced from >>> reality. >> >> But you are talking perceptions, and the sample talks numbers. >> >> Of course 16% has to be taken with some margins, but you can''t deny >> it >> makes difficult to claim that the vast majority of Rails developers >> use jQuery exclusively, which was the claim in (1). That is a strong >> claim! (1 was originally stated as a feeling not a fact, that''s >> fine). >> >> If the percent had been 84% then there would be no doubt about it, >> right? But < 20%... dubious. > > This is why I stated that once Rails 3 comes out, it should be easier > to get some "real" numbers on this, since presumably it will be just > as easy for developers to use jQuery as it currently is to use > Prototype, and those users > who actively program in Javascript rather than just using the helpers > will consciously decide to use one or the other. > > I would suggest it''s a bit late to change the default option at this > time, and if the decision is left for 3.1 it can easily be based at > least in part on real-world numbers that nobody disputes. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails- > core@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en > . >-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
I personally disagree. With a limit backwards compatibility, current Prototype users could have a simple command line switch to regain their old default. Furthermore, I feel that the default JS library is the least coupled piece of Rails 3 -- changing it is rather unobtrusive, as long as bindings are available for the major frameworks. Cheers, Daniel On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:59 PM, Ryan Bigg <radarlistener@gmail.com> wrote:> I would not go changing this in a minor release. Major or bust. > > Ryan Bigg / Radar > > On 28/05/2010, at 1:58, Norman Clarke <norman@njclarke.com> wrote: > >> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 12:45, Xavier Noria <fxn@hashref.com> wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Yehuda Katz <wycats@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> The idea that 16% of Rails users use jQuery is divorced from reality. >>> >>> But you are talking perceptions, and the sample talks numbers. >>> >>> Of course 16% has to be taken with some margins, but you can''t deny it >>> makes difficult to claim that the vast majority of Rails developers >>> use jQuery exclusively, which was the claim in (1). That is a strong >>> claim! (1 was originally stated as a feeling not a fact, that''s fine). >>> >>> If the percent had been 84% then there would be no doubt about it, >>> right? But < 20%... dubious. >> >> This is why I stated that once Rails 3 comes out, it should be easier >> to get some "real" numbers on this, since presumably it will be just >> as easy for developers to use jQuery as it currently is to use >> Prototype, and those users >> who actively program in Javascript rather than just using the helpers >> will consciously decide to use one or the other. >> >> I would suggest it''s a bit late to change the default option at this >> time, and if the decision is left for 3.1 it can easily be based at >> least in part on real-world numbers that nobody disputes. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. >> To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. > >-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
Why? SQLite3 was made the default database in 2.0.2 and the world didn''t stop. It''s a change that affects people creating new Rails applications - not ones that have already been created. I''m a big fan of jQuery too but maybe at this point it would be nice to take an issue off the core team''s table. At the end of the day Rails 3 is still going to work great no matter what the default is. On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 17:59, Ryan Bigg <radarlistener@gmail.com> wrote:> I would not go changing this in a minor release. Major or bust. > > Ryan Bigg / Radar > > On 28/05/2010, at 1:58, Norman Clarke <norman@njclarke.com> wrote: > >> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 12:45, Xavier Noria <fxn@hashref.com> wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Yehuda Katz <wycats@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> The idea that 16% of Rails users use jQuery is divorced from reality. >>> >>> But you are talking perceptions, and the sample talks numbers. >>> >>> Of course 16% has to be taken with some margins, but you can''t deny it >>> makes difficult to claim that the vast majority of Rails developers >>> use jQuery exclusively, which was the claim in (1). That is a strong >>> claim! (1 was originally stated as a feeling not a fact, that''s fine). >>> >>> If the percent had been 84% then there would be no doubt about it, >>> right? But < 20%... dubious. >> >> This is why I stated that once Rails 3 comes out, it should be easier >> to get some "real" numbers on this, since presumably it will be just >> as easy for developers to use jQuery as it currently is to use >> Prototype, and those users >> who actively program in Javascript rather than just using the helpers >> will consciously decide to use one or the other. >> >> I would suggest it''s a bit late to change the default option at this >> time, and if the decision is left for 3.1 it can easily be based at >> least in part on real-world numbers that nobody disputes. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. >> To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. > >-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
I agree. Let''s get 3.0 out and table this until then. Deal? Yehuda Katz Architect | Engine Yard (ph) 718.877.1325 On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 2:24 PM, Norman Clarke <norman@njclarke.com> wrote:> Why? SQLite3 was made the default database in 2.0.2 and the world > didn''t stop. It''s a change that affects people creating new Rails > applications - not ones that have already been created. > > I''m a big fan of jQuery too but maybe at this point it would be nice > to take an issue off the core team''s table. At the end of the day > Rails 3 is still going to work great no matter what the default is. > > On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 17:59, Ryan Bigg <radarlistener@gmail.com> wrote: > > I would not go changing this in a minor release. Major or bust. > > > > Ryan Bigg / Radar > > > > On 28/05/2010, at 1:58, Norman Clarke <norman@njclarke.com> wrote: > > > >> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 12:45, Xavier Noria <fxn@hashref.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Yehuda Katz <wycats@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> The idea that 16% of Rails users use jQuery is divorced from reality. > >>> > >>> But you are talking perceptions, and the sample talks numbers. > >>> > >>> Of course 16% has to be taken with some margins, but you can''t deny it > >>> makes difficult to claim that the vast majority of Rails developers > >>> use jQuery exclusively, which was the claim in (1). That is a strong > >>> claim! (1 was originally stated as a feeling not a fact, that''s fine). > >>> > >>> If the percent had been 84% then there would be no doubt about it, > >>> right? But < 20%... dubious. > >> > >> This is why I stated that once Rails 3 comes out, it should be easier > >> to get some "real" numbers on this, since presumably it will be just > >> as easy for developers to use jQuery as it currently is to use > >> Prototype, and those users > >> who actively program in Javascript rather than just using the helpers > >> will consciously decide to use one or the other. > >> > >> I would suggest it''s a bit late to change the default option at this > >> time, and if the decision is left for 3.1 it can easily be based at > >> least in part on real-world numbers that nobody disputes. > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<rubyonrails-core%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com> > . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. > >> > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<rubyonrails-core%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com> > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<rubyonrails-core%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. > >-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
On 28 May 2010 07:24, Norman Clarke <norman@njclarke.com> wrote:> Why? SQLite3 was made the default database in 2.0.2 and the world > didn''t stop. It''s a change that affects people creating new Rails > applications - not ones that have already been created. >There''s a big difference between changing the default database system and changing the default javascript engine. For a very basic example: Model.create will work the same on whatever database system you''re using where $(''blog_1'') will behave differently depending on the javascript engine. I see your point.> > I''m a big fan of jQuery too but maybe at this point it would be nice > to take an issue off the core team''s table. At the end of the day > Rails 3 is still going to work great no matter what the default is. >Indeed and I''ll agree with Yehuda here. 3.0''s gotta be out soon, right?> > On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 17:59, Ryan Bigg <radarlistener@gmail.com> wrote: > > I would not go changing this in a minor release. Major or bust. > > > > Ryan Bigg / Radar > > > > On 28/05/2010, at 1:58, Norman Clarke <norman@njclarke.com> wrote: > > > >> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 12:45, Xavier Noria <fxn@hashref.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Yehuda Katz <wycats@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> The idea that 16% of Rails users use jQuery is divorced from reality. > >>> > >>> But you are talking perceptions, and the sample talks numbers. > >>> > >>> Of course 16% has to be taken with some margins, but you can''t deny it > >>> makes difficult to claim that the vast majority of Rails developers > >>> use jQuery exclusively, which was the claim in (1). That is a strong > >>> claim! (1 was originally stated as a feeling not a fact, that''s fine). > >>> > >>> If the percent had been 84% then there would be no doubt about it, > >>> right? But < 20%... dubious. > >> > >> This is why I stated that once Rails 3 comes out, it should be easier > >> to get some "real" numbers on this, since presumably it will be just > >> as easy for developers to use jQuery as it currently is to use > >> Prototype, and those users > >> who actively program in Javascript rather than just using the helpers > >> will consciously decide to use one or the other. > >> > >> I would suggest it''s a bit late to change the default option at this > >> time, and if the decision is left for 3.1 it can easily be based at > >> least in part on real-world numbers that nobody disputes. > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<rubyonrails-core%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com> > . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. > >> > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<rubyonrails-core%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com> > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<rubyonrails-core%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. > >-- Ryan Bigg / Radar -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
I''d like to see vbscript as the default, but I guess we can wait until Rails 3 ships first. On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Ryan Bigg <radarlistener@gmail.com> wrote:> > On 28 May 2010 07:24, Norman Clarke <norman@njclarke.com> wrote: >> >> Why? SQLite3 was made the default database in 2.0.2 and the world >> didn''t stop. It''s a change that affects people creating new Rails >> applications - not ones that have already been created. > > There''s a big difference between changing the default database system and > changing the default javascript engine. For a very basic example: > Model.create will work the same on whatever database system you''re using > where $(''blog_1'') will behave differently depending on the javascript > engine. > I see your point. >> >> I''m a big fan of jQuery too but maybe at this point it would be nice >> to take an issue off the core team''s table. At the end of the day >> Rails 3 is still going to work great no matter what the default is. > > Indeed and I''ll agree with Yehuda here. 3.0''s gotta be out soon, right? >> >> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 17:59, Ryan Bigg <radarlistener@gmail.com> wrote: >> > I would not go changing this in a minor release. Major or bust. >> > >> > Ryan Bigg / Radar >> > >> > On 28/05/2010, at 1:58, Norman Clarke <norman@njclarke.com> wrote: >> > >> >> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 12:45, Xavier Noria <fxn@hashref.com> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Yehuda Katz <wycats@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> The idea that 16% of Rails users use jQuery is divorced from reality. >> >>> >> >>> But you are talking perceptions, and the sample talks numbers. >> >>> >> >>> Of course 16% has to be taken with some margins, but you can''t deny it >> >>> makes difficult to claim that the vast majority of Rails developers >> >>> use jQuery exclusively, which was the claim in (1). That is a strong >> >>> claim! (1 was originally stated as a feeling not a fact, that''s fine). >> >>> >> >>> If the percent had been 84% then there would be no doubt about it, >> >>> right? But < 20%... dubious. >> >> >> >> This is why I stated that once Rails 3 comes out, it should be easier >> >> to get some "real" numbers on this, since presumably it will be just >> >> as easy for developers to use jQuery as it currently is to use >> >> Prototype, and those users >> >> who actively program in Javascript rather than just using the helpers >> >> will consciously decide to use one or the other. >> >> >> >> I would suggest it''s a bit late to change the default option at this >> >> time, and if the decision is left for 3.1 it can easily be based at >> >> least in part on real-world numbers that nobody disputes. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> Groups >> >> "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. >> >> To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> >> For more options, visit this group at >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. >> >> >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups >> > "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> > http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. >> > >> > >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. >> To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > Ryan Bigg / Radar > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. > To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en. >-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
I think Rails 3.1 would be the appropriate target. Daniel -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Core" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-core@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-core+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-core?hl=en.
We discussed in this thread usage stats. Usage stats seem to favor
Prototype, though of course it has been the default since the
beginning and that matters.
On the other hand, stats about what people prefer *now* suggest that''s
clearly jQuery:
http://survey.hamptoncatlin.com/survey/stats
I think this number is worth taking into account.
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